Crops

Terraformer · 2013-04-16 03:50:20

Simple - acid proof coating.

Alternatively, we could crash a load of comets into Venus to boost it's water content and dilute the acid. It would probably warm the planet up even more, but we don't really care about that as long as the clouds stay nice. Lots of easily accessible hydrogen then, in a 1 bar CO2 atmosphere. Big floating islands...?

RobertDyck · 2013-04-16 07:29:21

StarDreamer wrote:

It could also grow in airborne ponds on Venus.....

StarDreamer wrote:

Ok no one followed through on my idea for Venus.

I didn't think you were serious. Airborne ponds? But I see you're now talking about manufactured greenhouses.

If the goal is to support human habitation, then you'll need resources for industry. What are the resources on Venus? The surface today is ~+450°C, pressure 90 bars, atmosphere is 95+% CO2. There is sulphuric acid in the clouds, it was assumed there would be sulphuric acid close to the surface. Turns out there isn't, instead there's carbonyl sulphide, a stronger corrosive. Spacesuit would have to have an exterior able to withstand all that, but a hard shell to keep pressure out like a Newtsuit diving suit. Manufacturer of that suit built it for 1,000 feet under water on Earth. He got a contract from the US Navy to use military materials to improve it; that suit can withstand 2,000 feet. But pressure on Venus is equivalent to 3,000 feet. Could that be built? Then there's weight; Venus has 90% of Earth's gravity. A heavy Newtsuit would require power assist to walk. And it would require active cooling, otherwise the astronaut would fry.

If you build a settlement in the clouds, then pressure is ~1 bar, pressure is about Earth's, and gravity is still 90%. But there's no solid surface to mine, so where do you get resources to build the settlement?

I've suggested terraforming Venus with genetically engineered anaerobic archaea. Earth has aerial plankton, including bacteria that use a flap of their cell wall to "fly". They don't "fly" like birds; at the scale of a single cell air is very thick. And they ride air currents like a glider. So use those genes. And engineer new genes so the energy metabolism of this new organism creates polyanydride as waste. I'm saying put it in the primary energy metabolism so the organism can't evolve to bypass it. Polyanydride is a polymer of (CO2)n, it's made exclusively from carbon dioxide. Carl Segan came up with the idea of seeding the clouds of Venus in 1961. He thought algae would do the job, but that's when science thought pressure on Venus was 6 bars. You can't convert CO2 into carbon and O2, there would be 86 bars of O2 and carbon would collect into multi-kilometre deep layer that would compress to graphite from its own weight. At even moderate temperatures, graphite in that much O2 would spontaneously combust. It would burn back into CO2, undoing all your hard work. But polyanhydride consumes all elements in CO2. It may require something at the end of each molecule to stabilize it; be careful not to consume resources that are otherwise needed. The organism would use retinal as primary photodye, like the single cell organism called halobacteria, instead of using chlorophyll. The reason is chlorophyll requires one atom of magnesium for each molecule; there isn't any magnesium in the clouds. Retinal is made from carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and hydrogen. Retinal is purple instead of green, so visualize purple clouds. Go through the entire proteome of the genetically engineered organism, ensuring it only uses resources available in the clouds of Venus. A self-replicating (growing) organism would be limited only by resources available, and energy from sunlight. And like most anaerobic organisms, ensure this one is poisoned by oxygen. When pressure drops close to the desired level, introduce cyanobacteria to produce oxygen. This will produce oxygen for humans to breathe, as well as stopping the anaerobic organism. You would probably have to crash comets into Venus to provide enough water.

This idea does not require manufacturing floating islands, or any other manufacturing. Just seed the clouds, and crash comets. Stand back and wait while focussing on development of Mars. And mining asteroids for resources like gold and platinum. Venus would take years to "cook", but the beauty is we don't have to do much once it's started.

StarDreamer · 2013-04-16 08:09:16

I guess I am torn between terraforming Venus and leaving it as is. I would be in favour of terraforming if it could be done through natural biological processes such as you just described and within few enough decades to hold the attention of human brains (we have not evolved the kind of long-term planning that would permit us to focus on the centuries and millennia of our future -- some of us can, but most of us won't and I am willing to work with what we got in that dept as a species because the realm of politics is still at that evolutionary level). If it cannot be done simply, then leave it be. If it can be done simply (as you describe) but not quickly, then I would be in favour of launching the processes now and leaving it to future generations to handle the transition as Venus cools, as its rotation increases (with less atmosphere and less heat), as the cloud decks dissociate and mix, etc. If it cannot be done simply or quickly, then I say we can still live on the Venus we see today, if we change our thinking about what living ON the planet means. I do not propose anyone go to the surface. The surface equals Death, period. I propose floating single-family habitats manufactured on-site out of the simple compounds already present in the Venus atmosphere, including polymers etc. Some hard equipment would need to be imported, to be sure, plus some "potting soil". But plants growing in the floating greenhouses would make more soil and lock up carbon etc over time. Butterflies and quails and suchlike fauna could survive as well. Hopefully bees and then you have pollination. Maybe the colonists would be there to monitor the changes taking place in the atmosphere due to archaea activity. Maybe they would extract rocket fuels from the Venus atmosphere to lift up to an orbiting space station. Maybe lots of things. I like the idea of a society of free colonists, not trapped under a single dome, whose children could come and go from Earth (which the children of Mars could never do), etc etc. No private property or land ownership. No hoarding of resources. It loses all this potential of we terraform it.

Terraformer · 2013-04-16 08:17:16

Using humans to mine the surface of Venus? What a silly idea. Never send a man to do a machines job. Drop down, scoop up a load of dirt, and float back to the clouds. We'll refine it once it gets back.

Not that we'll need much that we can't get from the atmosphere. Plastics don't require anything from the surface. We can cut down on the metal requirements quite significantly.

StarDreamer · 2013-04-16 08:34:07

It has been said that we here on Earth know more about outerspace than we know about the depths of our oceans or the interior of our own planet. The same shall be said someday about Venus if we can make colonies in the cloud decks. And I am okay with that. We do not need to know everything. We need know only enough.

It would be easier, with current tech, to mine an asteroid and lower its resources into the cloud decks of Venus than to go down to its surface to mine resources there and bring them back up.

JoshNH4H · 2013-04-17 08:43:47

StarDreamer wrote:

It has been said that we here on Earth know more about outerspace than we know about the depths of our oceans or the interior of our own planet. The same shall be said someday about Venus if we can make colonies in the cloud decks. And I am okay with that. We do not need to know everything. We need know only enough.
It would be easier, with current tech, to mine an asteroid and lower its resources into the cloud decks of Venus than to go down to its surface to mine resources there and bring them back up.

While that claim sounds great on a grant application or on an article on Maine biology intended for the general population, it's not really true. Take the most well-studied extraterrestrial body of them all: The moon. It has been visited by twelve people for a grand total of maybe eight man-days in very limited regions. Under a thousand kilograms of samples have been brought back. Meanwhile we didn't even know there was water there until very recently. Nobody on this earth can tell you where Mars' moons came from. We have a fair understanding of the geological, biological, and chemical processes occurring at the bottom of the ocean. More research can and will fee done, but that statement is certainly false.

If we decide to go for Venus, we will learn about the planet below the cloud deck. It's pretty inevitable. Beyond that, I don't believe it would be easier (what does easier mean, anyway?) to obtain metals from space than the planetary surface. By the time we're colonizing Venus, I would expect us to have mastered the technique of construction using various forms of carbon. Given it's extremely high melting point, it should be possible to build a machine to retrieve surface material when needed. I do remain skeptical of the reasons for and viability of colonizing a planet that's out of the way and doesn't possess many easily accessible resources.

RobertDyck,

You've floated this idea many times in the past (so to speak) and I've never been convinced that polyanhydride would survive in the environment on the surface in the long term. Temporary sequestration isn't enough: to really terraform the planet it will be necessary to keep the carbon dioxide out if the atmosphere indefinitely. A lethal dose of CO2 is about 50 mb, which represents about0.06% of total atmospheric carbon dioxide.

It is my understanding that polyanhydrides frequently decay in unfavorable environments over the course of a few months. 735 K, 92 bar, and corrosive chemicals everywhere wood certainly seem to qualify.

This is of course to accept on faith that it's possible to get 100% of an organism down to C, H, O, N, S. It sends unlikely to me seeing as there's phosphorus in DNA.

RobertDyck · 2013-04-17 09:28:41

A terraforming organism is not uniquely my idea, it's a refinement of Carl Segan's idea. And yes, it would require something to get phosphorus up into the clouds. As for polyanhydride stability, that would require some research. Speculation will do nothing. Stuff manufactured today is a co-polymer of something deliberately designed to decompose. It's used as a time delay delivery method for drugs. Without that other thing, polyanhydride is much stronger. And it would require something strong on the ends of each molecule (it's a long chain polymer).

Terraformer · 2013-04-17 12:06:20

I wonder what sort of catchment area we'd need to use solar hydrogen to convert most of the CO2 to water... it would certainly be a megastructure...

The best idea I've seen for getting rid of the CO2 is to convert it into carbonates with metal dust from Mercury. Alternatively, if we can get the temperature low enough for it to liquefy (using mass produced reflective aerostats, forming a sort of foam, perhaps?) we might be able to garden the crust to get it to react away much of the CO2 seas.

RobertDyck · 2013-11-27 06:50:04

Margarine and vegetable oil:

1/2 cup soy milk
1 cup soy oil
3-6 drops Lemon juice
1/2 tsp salt, or to taste

Add soy milk in food processor on high and allow to run for approximately 1 minute
In a slow, steady stream add oil as you continue processing the mixture until emulsified, approximately 2 minutes
Add your drops of lemon juice (remember, the more you add the more it carries the taste) as well as any other flavorings (herbs, etc.)
Blend
Turn off processor
Keep margarine in an air tight container in the fridge

Acid of lemon juice is a natural preservative. I found a few recipes on the internet, most also call for soy lecithin, but some say there's enough in soy milk. Lecithin is make from soy oil, so using soy oil instead of some other vegetable oil means that's more lecithin. So you don't need to add isolated lecithin.

One recipe doesn't have salt at all, but all say "or to taste".

Many recipies also call for turmeric, but that's just for colour. If you're willing to accept white margarine, you can leave it out.

I also emailed the manufacturer of the oil expeller. This is important because the internet says soy oil is made by using a solvent. Getting the solvent out of the oil is a major health concern. So using mechanical means to remove oil would avoid that problem. This was his reply:

-----Original Message-----
Dear Robert,

It will work for soybeans, although the oil contents is beneath 25%. I managed to press the oil with a handy trick: just before pressing I soak the beans in boiling water for 2 seconds, let the water drip off and press the warm beans. I expect there is a difference in oil contents between soy varieties too. Turning of the crank requires some extra muscles.
-----

http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.html

http://www.amazon.com/Piteba-Nut-Seed-E … B004H2SDTM

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_trksid=p … &_from=R40

JoshNH4H · 2013-11-27 12:37:31

Have you tried to make this recipe? If so, how did it taste compared to normal margarine?

Terraformer · 2013-11-27 14:55:49

One of the great things about this part of space colonisation is that you can do nearly all the research needed on a very low budget.

Plus, things like this will come in useful on Terra as well, especially when combined with permaculture, the open source ecology project, localisation...

RobertDyck · 2013-11-27 16:17:46

I have soy milk powder; from a local store called the Bulk Barn. It's just defatted soy flour; no additives. And I have Crisco brand soy oil. So I bought a container of "ReaLemon" brand lemon juice, and a spice bottle of turmeric. I can't find my old blender, but have a hand immersion blender with attachments. I mixed up a half batch; that's all that would fit. It didn't emulsify. It's liquid and grainy. Recipes on the internet called for dairy milk or soy milk, vegetable oil (canola, sunflower, or olive), and lemon juice, salt, turmeric for colour, and soy lecithin. One recipe claimed there's enough lecithin in soy milk. A couple others said there's definitely enough lecithin if you use both soy milk and soy oil. Recipe to make lecithin comes from soy oil: add hot water, blend, let sit until it separates, scoop off the water, then dry it. Since lecithin comes from soy oil, then making margarine from soy oil shouldn't require lecithin. Is it because I dumped everything in then blended? Did I just not blend long enough? So I blended for another 3 minutes, and timed it. Still nothing. So I put the whole blender attachment with the mixture in the fridge.

I was worried about how much turmeric. All recipes on the internet appear the same, they say a "dash". A kitchen measures website says that's 0.62ml, which converts to 1/8 teaspoon. Since I made half a batch, and my smallest measuring spoon is 1/8 teaspoon, I half filled that. The colour is about right. Now if it would only set.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2013-11-27 18:17:24)

RobertDyck · 2013-11-27 18:15:51

Ok, gave up on that batch. Didn't work. Started over, this time sticking to the instructions strictly. Blended the soy milk for 1 full minute. Then added the oil, and blended for another 2 full minutes. It worked! It emulsified. Still a bit runny, the consistency of pudding. So blended for a little less than a minute more. Didn't see any difference, so continued. At this point it wasn't stark white, more of an off-white. Added the turmeric, salt, and lemon juice. Blended for another full 2 minutes. It ended up not quite as deep yellow as commercial margarine, but that's only colour. Was still runny like pudding. Washed out a plastic container for peanut butter, and poured it in. Put that in the fridge. Let's see if it sets up. Tasted what dripped out: it's a bit more salty than margarine I'm used to.

::Edit:: After refrigeration, it didn't get any thicker. It's still too soupy. However, it tastes really good! Flavour may be due to turmeric, so it isn't just colour.

Checked ingredients of two commercial margarines: "no name" (that's the actual registered brand name. The yellow label house brand of "The Superstore"), and Parkay. "no name" (they don't capitalize that) uses canola oil, while Parkay uses soy oil. Both add water and "modified milk ingredients", soy lecithin, and "modified palm and palm kernel oil". Those oils come from different parts of the same plant, but both are hard oils. That's probably what makes the margarine firm. Parkay actually lists quantity: "soybean oil 85%, modified palm and palm kernel oil 15%". I want to avoid growing palm trees on Mars; stick to smaller plants. We don't want to hydrogenate; that would create transfat. What does "modified" mean? Both margarines clearly say on their label "non-hydrogenated". Not sure what to do now.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2013-11-27 21:36:40)

RobertDyck · 2013-12-05 22:22:24

I haven't received an answer. Right now I see only two options to make margarine: hydrogenate, or palm oil. Some websites claim modified palm oil is just as bad for you as transfat. Do we just go back to hydrogenated margarine? What do we do?

Quaoar · 2013-12-30 06:03:25

RobertDyck wrote:

I have soy milk powder; from a local store called the Bulk Barn. It's just defatted soy flour; no additives. And I have Crisco brand soy oil.

Is not simple to extract oil from soy, corn or sunflower seed: you need solvents and a very good system to remove them. Whitout a chemical industry, on Mars is better to use olive oil that can be extracted by pressure only.

RobertDyck · 2013-12-30 06:15:59

Quaoar wrote:

Is not simple to extract oil from soy, corn or sunflower seed: you need solvents and a very good system to remove them. Whitout a chemical industry, on Mars is better to use olive oil that can be extracted by pressure only.

That's how it's normally done, but you don't have to do it that way. Use of a solvent gets the most oil, but as you said that creates the problem of removing the solvent. An expeller uses mechanical pressure to extract oil, no solvent. It doen't extract as much oil, but you don't have to remove the solvent.

This manufacturer produces one sized for a kitchen. It's intended for oil seeds: canola, sunflower seed, sesame, safflower, hazelnut, flax (linseed oil), grape seed, and rapeseed (American to copy canola, grows in their climate). However, it can be used for soybeans as well. I emailed the manufacturer. His reply:

It will work for soybeans, although the oil contents is beneath 25%. I managed to press the oil with a handy trick: just before pressing I soak the beans in boiling water for 2 seconds, let the water drip off and press the warm beans. I expect there is a difference in oil contents between soy varieties too. Turning of the crank requires some extra muscles.

http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.html
oil%20expeller%20press%20piteba_thumb.jpg

SpaceNut · 2013-12-30 18:27:43

For a lot of DIY projects on the farm I recommend http://www.motherearthnews.com/

The Piteba press is shown on this page;
How to Make Cooking Oil and Fat Take the next step toward food self-sufficiency by making cooking oil from seeds and nuts, making butter and rendering lard and tallow.

Last edited by SpaceNut (2013-12-30 18:31:13)

louis · 2013-12-30 19:37:34

RobertDyck wrote:

Quaoar wrote:
Is not simple to extract oil from soy, corn or sunflower seed: you need solvents and a very good system to remove them. Whitout a chemical industry, on Mars is better to use olive oil that can be extracted by pressure only.
That's how it's normally done, but you don't have to do it that way. Use of a solvent gets the most oil, but as you said that creates the problem of removing the solvent. An expeller uses mechanical pressure to extract oil, no solvent. It doen't extract as much oil, but you don't have to remove the solvent.
This manufacturer produces one sized for a kitchen. It's intended for oil seeds: canola, sunflower seed, sesame, safflower, hazelnut, flax (linseed oil), grape seed, and rapeseed (American to copy canola, grows in their climate). However, it can be used for soybeans as well. I emailed the manufacturer. His reply:
It will work for soybeans, although the oil contents is beneath 25%. I managed to press the oil with a handy trick: just before pressing I soak the beans in boiling water for 2 seconds, let the water drip off and press the warm beans. I expect there is a difference in oil contents between soy varieties too. Turning of the crank requires some extra muscles.
http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.html
http://www.piteba.com/images/oil%20expe … _thumb.jpg

Excellent link.

Some people don't understand that inefficiency is the LEAST of our problems on Mars!

On Mars, the first rule is to survive - whether you do that efficiently or inefficiently (in Earth terms) is neither here nor there.

What we really need on Mars are simple technologies that don't require too much specialised knowledge or, alternatively, state of the art robot technology that doesn't require the first settlers to have too much specialised knowledge.

The reason you can't rely on specialised knowledge is because you are expecting your initial colony to reproduce in miniature the whole of human civilisation. By definition they can't be expert in all fields.

SpaceNut · 2014-01-01 16:21:49

RobertDyck has there been any menu work done on what we might be able to grow to supplement what we bring for dry goods to mars when we take into account how long food items take to grow and the re-estate that some require to replenshish what we bring.

RobertDyck · 2014-01-01 17:38:02

There have been a few. NASA X-Hab, University of Hawaii HI-SEAS, others. My ideas are in this discussion thread, but my ideas are for a permanent base, not suppliments for a science mission.

louis · 2014-01-01 18:10:07

SpaceNut wrote:

RobertDyck has there been any menu work done on what we might be able to grow to supplement what we bring for dry goods to mars when we take into account how long food items take to grow and the re-estate that some require to replenshish what we bring.

Foodstuffs like bean sprouts grown from dried beans could be a useful first step. They are v. nutritious.

I guess it would be baby steps - we ought to be experimenting with creating soils on Mars, using Mars regolith, human faeces, and other waste matter (e.g. food waste).

RobertDyck · 2014-01-01 18:42:15

Summary, for 12 people: (my work, greenhouse area)

Coffee 298 m^2
Soybean 475 m^2
Wheat 600 m^2
Potato 145 m^2
Rice 157.5 m^2
Corn 120.5 m^2
Black Pepper 3.5 m^2
Barley 13.5 m^2
Sugar Beet 13 m^2
Fenugreek 0.378 m^2
Vanilla 3 m^2
Grapes 12 m^2
Orange/Lemon 6 m^2
Apple/Pear 6 m^2
Plum 6 m^2

Note: you can graft any citrus to any other citrus, any stone fruit to stone fruit, and any apple to apple. I include one orange tree with a single branch of lemon. There is one exception to this rule: you can graft an "interstem" of a variety of apple called Winter Banana to an apple tree; then graft pear to Winter Banana.

Also assume a device with in-vitro chloroplasts: recycle CO2 + H2O -> O2 + starch. This device will require a nursery to grow peas: at 2 weeks, leaves harvested for chloroplasts. You will have to grow some pea plants to maturity for seads.

chemicals: Salt, ammonia processed with CO2 to become baking soda. Grapes processed to form tartaric acid. Baking soda + tartaric acid + starch -> baking powder. Ammonium nitrate as nitrogen fertilizer for soil.

Other crops not sized yet:
Oats
Onion
Beet
Garlic
Parsley
Sesame
Pea
Green beans
Black beans
Carrot
Cassava (tapioca)
Flax (source of omega-3, important for meatless diet)
Guar (a bean)
Irish moss (carrageenan) - sea weed, grows in a water tank

Marmite:
Also necessary for a meatless diet: vitamin B12. A variety of cyanobacteria called Spirolina has it, but some bacteria also produce B12. Streptomyces griseus is a bacterium once thought to be a yeast, and can be grown with yeast to add B12. One article claims Propionibacterium shermanii and Pseudomonas denitrificans have now replaced S. griseus. In either case, the UK variety of Marmite is fortified with B12 from a bacterium.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2014-01-03 07:22:19)

SpaceNut · 2014-01-01 20:20:26

Thank you for the post and links they are just what I am looking for.

The approximate 1440 m^2 does not sound all that large for a first garden but what about the hieght for the trees? What about Tea for those that are not coffee drinkers? Has there been any thought on waste water processing with algea? Then the waste vegitation can be placed into a methane digestor or used for composting as well from crop growing.

RobertDyck · 2014-01-01 21:12:38

I'm looking at websites of nurseries that sell dwarf fruit trees. Their trees grow 8 to 10 feet high, in an area 8 foot by 8 foot. Haven't looked at tea; there are several crops that I just didn't include to keep the crop list relatively short.

Waste water is definately a concern. This is my list, the BioMars guys did some serious work on waste water. Didn't get their thing to work at MDRS. One commercial system is Living Machine. Their early version used a below ground septic tank with anaerobic bacteria, then an above ground white translucent tank with algae, then ponds, then plants grown in vermiculite with water that directly seeps from the ponds. Lastly a plastic tube with UV fluorescent tube sterilized the water. Their current system has been completely redesigned, it's based on tidal flow wetland. It washes water from one tank to another.

Be careful, though. I used average per capita consumption for North America, and haven't sized potatoes yet. And the unsized stuff other than oats, rice and beans are used for meet substitutes like veggie burgers, veggie peperoni, or veggie ground round. I don't know how much greenhouse area will be required for the genetically engineered peas for the in-vitro chloroplast machine. I'm counting on that for starch and white sugar.

And I don't know how much room will be needed for a composter. You suggest methane digestor? Ok.

RobertDyck · 2014-01-01 22:30:36

Potato (I'll update the summary)

US per capita consumption of potatoes in 2006 was 56.13 kg. (reference: Agriculture and Agri-food Canada) That is broken down as 19.06 kg fresh, 23.91 kg frozen, 7.35 kg chips, 5.4 kg dehydrated, and 0.41 kg canning. We'll have to make everything ourselves, so chips will be a luxury. It requires slicing with a "mandolin" to create raw potato chips, then deep frying in vegetable oil. You can make oven baked chips, but I tried in my kitchen oven; didn't turn out well. So assume chips will be a rare luxury item. Assume no canned potatoes. Potato is an ingredient in meet substitutes, so let's assume that is the dehydrated portion. Let's say 19.06 + 23.91 + 5.4 = 48.37 kg per person. For 12 crew that is 580.44 kg. That same reference page does not list yield in the US or Canada, but China gets 15 tonnes per hectare. Russia and Africa produce less, India and Latin America more. That works out to 387 m^2.

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