Scatology on Mars

Quaoar · 2013-12-21 16:34:48

It seems not so epic like spaceship propulsion, ISPP or aeroshell, but it may be an interesting issue of a Mars manned mission.
If the habitat has a compost tank, garbage and feces may be used to fertilize the crops of an aeroponic culture in a sealed closed cycle.
But I doubt the first mission will have and aeroponic green house.
If not, how it is planned to manage crew's west and garbage, without contaminating the planet?

Tom Kalbfus · 2013-12-21 16:46:15

I say, don't worry about the planet. Mars is tough, it wasn't named after the Roman God of War for nothing!

SpaceNut · 2013-12-21 16:59:12

Waste left outside will freeze so cold as to be rock hard and anything in it will die from the cold....

JoshNH4H · 2013-12-21 23:58:27

My biggest concern would be that placing waste outside the planet could result in contamination of the area, leading to false positives when looking for the presence of various kinds of organic compounds. It might be worth bringing lightweight, sealable plastic bags (in effect) to prevent contamination of the outside environment.

Quaoar · 2013-12-22 05:06:44

JoshNH4H wrote:

My biggest concern would be that placing waste outside the planet could result in contamination of the area, leading to false positives when looking for the presence of various kinds of organic compounds. It might be worth bringing lightweight, sealable plastic bags (in effect) to prevent contamination of the outside environment.

Something like the little plastic bags we use for the dog's waste, sealed and buried. It's simple and it may work.
Has NASA some kind of plan for this issue?

JoshNH4H · 2013-12-22 10:28:57

I doubt it. The Mars mission plans NASA has aren't too be taken seriously anyway, so I don't see why they Would address the issue.

I don't think you would need to bury the bags, since there's not much in the way of surface disturbance on Mars like there is on Earth.

Something else I've thought of would be the inclusion of gold microparticles in everything, including food. They're biologically inert and geologically rare, so their presence would be a sign of human contamination which would allow for some estimate of whether or not organic compounds found on site are indigenous or simply result from the human presence.

SpaceNut · 2013-12-22 11:01:18

So Nasa and astronauts would be so .... that they would even consider working so close to the area that we would use for disposal of waste....Mars is large enough so that we would want to explore lots farther away than just at the landing site....

RobertDyck · 2013-12-22 11:10:01

BioMars was a group of the Mars Society that wanted to use grey water sewage treatment to convert toilet waste into fertilizer for a greenhouse. They're the ones who built the greenhouse at MDRS. I don't think the sewage treatment system is there any more, and the greenhouse has been replaced, but they were active.

GreenCELSSTaskFORCE was led by Terry Kok. His design uses a composting toilet. It uses far less water, and the biology is different, but the objective is the same. He actually built this, a toilet and washroom for his house. He led a community until his divorce. Apparently many community members were loyal to his ex-wife, he ended up leaving that community and rebuilding elsewhere. His new house also has a composting toilet and garden, and he is active with a community.

The Johnson Space Centre had the Advanced Life Support Project. The goal was to use a sealed greenhouse to recycle oxygen. One test subject was sealed in, it was air-tight. The grew wheat and other things. It did recycle oxygen. Measured wheat growth actually responded to increased CO2 levels as the one individual exercised on an exercycle. It didn't produce enough food, the greenhouse would have had to be 4 times as large, but it did recycle oxygen. They also had water recycling: one feature was an incinerating toilet. So their solution was to extract moisture from feces through incineration. To do that in space, the toilet would use an electro-resistive oven aka electric oven.

The Russians also had something. They built the Salyut 1 space station, followed by Salyut 2 through 7. Not all succeeded, but Salyut 6 and 7 did. Each was an incremental improvement of the previous. The core module of the Mir space station was an upgrade of Salyut 7. They planned Mir2 to replace it, and the core module was built. But the Soviet Union collapsed, it wasn't launched. When ISS was built, modules for Mir2 were used as the Russian modules. What NASA calls the "Russian Service Module" is actually the core module for Mir2. The Russians planned an upgrade: a vacuum desiccating toilet. When ISS was built, it was constructed from parts for US space station Alpha and Russian space station Mir2, cobbled together like Frankenstein's monster. It works. But before the first module was launched, NASA insisted the Russians remove their vacuum desiccator toilet. They claimed the plumbing was too complicated. Since Columbia, they probably wish they had it.

So there are 4 options: grey water sewage, composting toilet, incinerating toilet, vacuum desiccating toilet. The first two recycle nutrients, the last two only recover moisture.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2013-12-22 12:38:48)

Tom Kalbfus · 2013-12-22 21:20:12

I think if humans are going to live on Mars, they are going to contaminate the planet with Earth biota, we'll just have to accept it as a given. If we are so darned worried about contaminating the planet, we should not send humans but only sterile probes, but this begs the question, is science the only reason for going to Mars? I think most Earth life will not flourish on Mars, and I think any Mars life we find will be sufficiently alien that we should easily be able to tell the difference. Mars life will be adapted to Mars and Earth life will not, I don't think there will be much competition.

SpaceNut · 2013-12-22 21:38:57

I do remember "GreenCELSSTaskFORCE was led by Terry Kok" as he did visit the MarsDrive Human mission planning efforts on yahoo in the early work that was done on closed loop life support.

Even the probes that we have sent have no garantee that they are contaninant free.

JoshNH4H · 2013-12-22 22:45:53

My worry about contamination doesn't stem from an evironmentalist, "Red" perspective, but rather a scientific one. If we're going to Mars, the reason why we're going is in part to look for life. A very important part of that will be chemical signatures, looking for organics. Our ability to do that will be significantly impaired if we spread poop all over the planet wherever we go.

I don't disagree that colonization will inevitable contaminate the planet. That's why it's important to take advantage of the early stages to do research on these kinds of things while contamination can be kept to a minimum.

Quaoar · 2013-12-23 09:27:49

JoshNH4H wrote:

I doubt it. The Mars mission plans NASA has aren't too be taken seriously anyway, so I don't see why they Would address the issue.
I don't think you would need to bury the bags, since there's not much in the way of surface disturbance on Mars like there is on Earth.
Something else I've thought of would be the inclusion of gold microparticles in everything, including food. They're biologically inert and geologically rare, so their presence would be a sign of human contamination which would allow for some estimate of whether or not organic compounds found on site are indigenous or simply result from the human presence.

Plastic bags may be depolimerized by UV. So I hypothized buring. Gold microparticle inclusion may be a nice idea.

Void · 2013-12-23 09:47:19

I would make a poo heater with a solar concentrating mirror. Sterilize it that way, maybe recover some hydrocarbon fuels. Then add the ashes to soil to grow food, or pack the ashes away in a burried bag as previously suggested for future gardening. Destructive distillation.

JoshNH4H · 2013-12-23 15:18:58

Quaoar, aren't there UV resistant plastics? And if not, we can coat or impregnate the bag with some of the chemicals used in sunscreen so as to protect it from the UV rays.

GW Johnson · 2013-12-24 19:39:30

If you do establish some sort of base on that first mission, wouldn't you establish some sort of greenhouse? Bury him in there, without a coffin. Let his body feed the plants.

GW

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-02 04:07:21

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#1 2013-12-21 16:34:48

Scatology on Mars

#2 2013-12-21 16:46:15

Re: Scatology on Mars

#3 2013-12-21 16:59:12

Re: Scatology on Mars

#4 2013-12-21 23:58:27

Re: Scatology on Mars

#5 2013-12-22 05:06:44

Re: Scatology on Mars

#6 2013-12-22 10:28:57

Re: Scatology on Mars

#7 2013-12-22 11:01:18

Re: Scatology on Mars

#8 2013-12-22 11:10:01

Re: Scatology on Mars

#9 2013-12-22 21:20:12

Re: Scatology on Mars

#10 2013-12-22 21:38:57

Re: Scatology on Mars

#11 2013-12-22 22:45:53

Re: Scatology on Mars

#12 2013-12-23 09:27:49

Re: Scatology on Mars

#13 2013-12-23 09:47:19

Re: Scatology on Mars

#14 2013-12-23 15:18:58

Re: Scatology on Mars

#15 2013-12-24 19:39:30

Re: Scatology on Mars

#16 2022-08-02 04:07:21

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