Mars Mission. Step 1

Anton Kuratnik · 2002-04-30 19:57:14

As I have seen many of us talk about doing it, not many really do anything. So lets try to as neatly and as detailed as possible make a plan for a human mission to Mars.

First, lets think about the outline of the mission:

1. What will the first mission be - just an exploration or a colonization? Should we first send men to explore Mars closely or already to settle down there.

2. The above question brings us to another question: how many men should go? Two? Three? Ten? Two hundred? It depends on the goal. If we need to explore, I would say no more than 30 men. If it is a colonization, than we would need 100 at least.

Lets start out with those two and see what we get at. After that we can do a bit more.

Bill White · 2002-04-30 20:34:04

<< The above question brings us to another question: how many men should go? >>

For the record, I ain't going without some women!

Canth · 2002-04-30 20:48:26

Actually many different outlines have been suggested and are widely known. I recommend going to your local library or book store and picking up and reading the case for mars by robert zubrin. This is a fin and informative book and if we can get familliar with what is in it allows us to debate the questions it poses and think of new things rather than rehashing the same stuff over and over. That is not a good way to make progress. It would be nice if doctor Zubrin would post his book on theinternet for all to read, It would probobly up the readership dramatically and increase support for missions. Unfortunately this would probobly cause him to lose a good deal of money, maybe he could think of it as a contribution to the cause. Anyway most people recommend sending a series of missions culminating in an outpost manned for 2 years out of every two and a half years. From there a permanently manned outpost could be established and transition into a colony as well as allow colonies to develope on other areas of the planet. We need to know a good deal more about mars and have some more practical experience with utilizing its resources before we go on to full fledged colony. However I beleive that if NASA or some other organization or group of organizations buckles down to it now we could have a colony established by 2030 if not sooner. Unfortunately no one with significant resources seems to be really ready to commit to men on mars. Till then those of us who dream of mars must do what we can and press slowly on toward men on mars.
By the way I think that the size of a genetically self sufficient colony needs to be about 300 unrelated individuals and that is the bare minimum. However they would likely start a colony small with few people (ten or so maybe more or less) and fill it up with new immigrants at an ever increasing rate. This allows for experience to be gained with risk to fewer people and for an infrastructure to be developed so that many esentials such as habitats don't have to be brought from earth. This dramatically decreases the cost of getting more people and increases the number that can be sent over by allowing them to bring less. There is also tak of sending sperm and eggs over and using them for artificial insemination to increase the genetic diversity of the group. Sperm and eggs getting sent over is much less costly then sending over additional people and while the children produced must be carried and raised you can bring several hundred times the genes with the same weight as a person. Some people even talk about an all female colony which would allow the maximum child carrying and thus grwth ability for the colony with the least weight. This seems a little drastic but is an interesting idea.

Vishal · 2002-05-01 11:55:31

Most of us believe there is no scientific or technologicla impedipent to actually sending a group pf people to MARS.

If thats the case, what would it take to put together a serious proposal - not just the logistics as in the Mars Direct plan. but the whole kit and caboodle.

1.sponsorship deals... for ad space on teh vehicles.. for the boots and suits.. e.g how much would NIKE pay for the first footprint on MArs to have its "swoosh" and even better just get NIKE to fudn the development of the boots or suit. Television coverage.... telecommunications link up (long distance operator .. funds the satellite that communicates with the mars base)... anyway you get the picture.

2. Importantly make it for costs using exisiting technology i.e. the ENERGIYA booster.

3. heck u can even get "paying passengers" who are useful and integral parts of the crew along as well.

Anyway... what woudl it take to actually produce a proper report on this.. not just our hearsay. but actually approaching companies... and getting figures...

What does everyone think... ?

Bill White · 2002-05-02 00:33:45

Anton's initial question was:

<<1. What will the first mission be - just an exploration or a colonization? Should we first send men to explore Mars closely or already to settle down there.>>

In my opinion, we need to keep our eyes firmly fixed on the ultimate goal, which I believe is for our species to become a true "space-faring" people.

And, again IMO, the definition of being a "space-faring" race is quite simple. Are human beings bearing and raising healthy and thriving children elsewhere than on Earth?

No matter how many trips humans may make to Luna, or Mars, or the moons of Saturn, until healthy babies are born and thrive away from Earth we are not a space-faring species. Such trips may be way-cool and I will watch with much interest, but they really are mere high tech camping trips not different in principle from the "flags and footsteps" missions denounced by Zubrin and others.

A first mission to Mars cannot be to settle. Far too many variables and unknown conditions. Several exploratory trips may be necessary - perhaps a great many. But - every trip to Mars (even the very first) should be done keeping this ultimate objective clearly in mind.

Otherwise, I fear a "been there - done that" effect.

Finally, I also believe that if we exclude Earth, Mars will prove to be the easiest place to bear and raise children in the solar system.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-05-02 07:29:37

Bill, I think your off-Earth child-raising criterion is a sensible and definitive way to judge our status as a space faring species.
The next logical step is to consider the consequences of raising colonies of native-born Martians and Lunatics (sorry ... Selenites! ). When space travel is quicker and cheaper, we'll all be able to travel from one celestial body to another to stay and visit with relatives, right? ... WRONG!! ... Many of us are aware of the tyranny of gravity but maybe not all of us have a real handle on it yet.
Earth dwellers will be able to visit the colonies but colonists will almost certainly be unable to reciprocate. Imagine you are on Mars right now, reading this post. You were born and raised there and have never left Mars except for a school excursion to Phobos when you were a kid. Great Aunt Gertrude in New York, Earth, invites you to come and visit. When you get there, you find you weigh 215kgs (473lbs) and even in a wheelchair you get tired easily!! You're only really comfortable lying flat on your back!
Of course, you wouldn't weigh 473lbs on Earth; you'd only be 180lbs. But compared to how you felt on Mars (68lbs), that's how you would feel on good old Terra.
Now imagine you were born on the Moon and had never left its surface. The same Great Aunt Gertrude wants to see you for her 90th birthday party in Manhattan. Compared to how you feel on Luna, when you arrive in New York you feel like you weigh 510kgs (1125lbs) !! From your stretcher, with its oxygen tent and cardiac support, you just manage to gasp "Happy Birthday" before your heart gives out! Again, the 510kgs is illusory. You only feel like that because back home on the Moon you weigh 29lbs.
Sorry to bore those of you who have understood all this stuff for years but, for those who have never really thought about it, it's a sobering concept, isn't it?
In fact, it may even raise ethical concerns. Is it right to give birth to human beings in an environment which precludes them from ever having the option to return to, and live on, their own planet? Apart from the feeling of permanent exile from the world that gave their species life, in a way they'll be like animals in a zoo with a constant stream of visitors coming from Earth to look at them, and then going home again; something they can never do.
Then again, maybe I'm being melodramatic and the truth is that nobody will see it this way at all. Maybe life will be so great on Luna and Mars that the colonies will feel sorry for us on the "Old World", if they ever think of us much in the first place!!
Any thoughts on this?

Anton Kuratnik · 2002-05-02 13:52:01

umm, no. As long as mutations don't happen, your weight will be normal on Earth and very light on Mars. THeir weigth will not be measured, but their MASS will. Mass, as you know, is the same anywhere. Of course, it will take you some time to adjust to more gravity, but you certainly won't weight 180 pounds on Earth if your mass is not 180 pounds.

Canth · 2002-05-02 14:13:17

Note as Shaun said your body will be used to mars or lunar gravity if you are born there (possibly even if you live there for a while). Your muscles and bones won't be strong enough to support your weight on earth if you were born on mars or the moon. If you never work out you can't just go pick up 1 or 2 times your own weight. If you are from the moon you would have to carry six times your normal weight. I weigh about 150 pounds in normal earth gravity. If gravity were to multiply by the same amount for me as it would for someone visiting earth from the moon I would weigh 900 pounds. I would be not to happy and it would be a health risk. The Earth exerts 6 times as much gravity on its surface as the moon exerts on its surface and 2.5 times as much as mars on its surface. Mars to earth might be safe, maybe, moon to earth would be a major health hazard. This dosn't even mention the additional force exerted when taking off from earth. At three lunar Gs I would weigh 18 times my normal weight. Humans in centrifuges have endured this for short periods of time but the average person might not be able to take the immense force.

Aaron Chester · 2002-05-02 14:44:37

This is interesting in theory, but we don't know for sure the reaction of our muscles if we were born on Mars. Granted, you are probably right, but on the other hand, there could be other variables that might play into how our body reacts to gravity. Who knows, maybe human muscles will develop differently on Mars. These kind of questions will not be answered until animals have been experimented with. This means raising an animal on Mars and then bringing them back to Earth to see how their bodies react.

I know there has been some experimentation in microgravity but it has not been extensive enough to be conclusive.

Aaron Chester · 2002-05-02 14:46:34

I agree Anton that it does seem that all we are doing is talking about it. However, that is where dreamers start. Someday this will happen. I for one would like to be involved in it. But, it might not be our generation.

Phobos · 2002-05-02 18:39:09

Do you think someone who was born on Mars and spent their entire childhood there would be able to adapt to Earth's gravity should they decide to go to Earth? I agree that we need more experiments to see how organisms react to lower
gravity, particularly those that were gestated and born in low gravity.

Canth · 2002-05-02 21:29:44

The Mars Society is sending up a satilite which will test this very affect on mice sent into space. They will use a centrifuge to simulate martian gravity, in this case it will have almost exactly the same affect force wise as actually being on mars. Mice will be sent up and mice will develope and be born on the satilite. I beleive it will be in orbit for 40 days or so. The animals will then be brough back to earth for further study. This should resolve exactly what variations in gravity will do to natives of other planets. There is a report on it a little ways down the front page of The Mars Society website.
I don't think there is any dispute that you would at least need to be excellent physical shape to do anything on earth when coming from mars because you you will have to exert more energy to walk around etc. due to you increased weight. It is an interesting topic.

Anton Kuratnik · 2002-05-02 21:31:39

Ahem. Gravity does not make your bones weak. Gravity is the pull of any object. Mars' gravity is weak, and that means that probably the martians will be easily jumping around. It will be hard for them (at first) to walk on Earth, because they have to use more force to move their legs. Probably children on Mars WILL have weaker leg muscles.
As for weak bones and muscles other than on legs, that's not true. At least, according to science it's not. For such stuff to develop you need the martian low atmospheric pressure. But, I hope, humanity will be able to fix that.

AndyM · 2002-05-03 00:37:17

It is science. Its a biological response to a reduced gravity environment. We know for a fact that astronauts who spend considerable amounts of time on the space station, eg. Russian cosmonauts on Mir, suffer from reduced bone density. Consequently they have trouble standing up when they return to earth and they have to go through a program of rehabilitation. The effects wear off after a time as the body is reacclimatized to earth conditions. The question is whether humans and animals who have been born in a reduced gravity environment can ever acclimatize to the gravity on earth. Will their bone density increase?

As an aside, its a reasonable assumption that people born in space will only develope sufficient bone density and muscle to function in their environment.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-05-03 03:15:25

Judging by one or two of the responses to my post, I feel I was right that not all Mars Society members really understand just how big a problem different "gravity wells" will pose.
I used to do a moderate amount of weight-training in order to avoid having various parts of my anatomy sagging towards the floor! (Plus, I found it invigorating and therefore enjoyable.) For one reason or another, in recent years I found less and less time for my weight-training and was actually doing none of it for quite a while. Just lately, guilt got the better of me and I went back to the gym. As you might expect, the dumbells I used to lift repeatedly, and with little difficulty, felt like they weighed twice as much as they used to! I had to cut back on the weight and gradually build up to my previous level.
Now all of this happened right here on Earth. "No kidding!!", I hear you all reply! The point being that even though I was born on Earth, and spend all my time here on the planet with the strongest surface gravity of any rocky planet or moon in the whole Solar System, I can still lose my muscle strength very quickly and easily if I'm not exerting myself.
As Andy points out, this phenomenon is better demonstrated by the effects on space-station astronauts of prolonged exposure to microgravity. Even though their physiology was for many years perfectly adapted to life at 1g (on Earth's surface), when they landed back on Terra Firma, some after 12 months in orbit, some after less, they were temporarily crippled. And most of them had endured a gruelling daily exercise routine as a precaution against this very problem! As I understand it, those who spent the longest time in orbit have never quite regained their previous bone density, and probably never will.
It doesn't take much extrapolation of these facts to understand how extremely hard it will be for any born-and-bred Martian to endure Earth gravity. If s/he is Martian-born, s/he won't be leaping around on Mars any more than we leap around on Earth. That's the whole point, Anton. His/her muscles will be perfectly adapted to moving a much lighter body and lifting proportionately much lighter objects. Even his/her heart will be used to pumping blood which weighs only 38% of its weight on Earth! No ... terrestrial living would be a nightmare for any Martian and an almost certain death-sentence for a native of the Moon.
Two more things: Thanks Canth for your help in trying to get the message across. And I'm confused, Anton, by your brief reference to Martian atmospheric pressure; I don't understand its relevance in the context of this discussion(? )

Adrian · 2002-05-03 07:47:57

This entire topic of gravity's effects on humans should probably be dealt with in a separate thread, but:

I think that many of the colonists on Mars will choose to have their children born on Earth and have them grow up there for a few years, so that their bone structure will develop more strongly than on Mars. This will allow them the option to live on Earth, or indeed any body within the solar system. It's not a new idea - I read it from Arthur C. Clarke in his novel 'Imperial Earth'.

The obvious question, however, is what will happen to children who are born on Mars, both biologically and politically? Is it fair to effectively stop these children from living on Earth?

Anton Kuratnik · 2002-05-03 14:56:18

If we develop artificial gravity by the time we colonize Mars I think children born on Mars should go through a few months of adjusting to higher gravity by slowly increasing it. And anyway, even those children and grown-ups who never leave Mars should go through this kind of a therapy every now and then to increase bone and muscle strength.

P.S. Sorry about all that bragging. Internet in Russia is very expensive and since I couldn't afford a magazine subscription, everything I knew was from books. When I came to US I was barely interested in science at all, and only now my interest in it came back. Thus I missed a lot of new inventions, etc.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-05-03 19:20:32

Hi Adrian! It's been so long since I read "Imperial Earth" I can't remember the details about Mars colonists having their babies on Earth.
But it seems to me that, at least while interplanetary transportation is still slow and expensive, few people will be able to afford the luxury of travelling to Earth to have children. And how is a woman to cope with not only her own hugely increased weight but also the weight of her rapidly expanding abdomen?! I remember all too well how uncomfortable my own wife was in the final stages of her pregnancies, and she too has spent all her life right here on Earth just like me. "Wow, what a remarkable coincidence!", I hear you all cry in unison!
Maybe if couples on Mars sent a fertilised egg to Earth for gestation in an artificial womb, or if they hired a surrogate mother to carry the child, it might work out. But, even then, how long would the child have to spend in 1g to develop the kind of physiology we're looking for ... a year, 2 years, more? And what parents would want to be separated from their brand new baby for that long?
Ignoring all these difficulties, how do we know that any of the physiological advantages so acquired would last for any significant length of time once the child returned to full-time Martian gravity? I suspect that even a native Terran would face permanent exile from Earth once s/he had spent even just a few years on Mars. Of course, that last comment was purely conjecture on my part but, if I were a betting man, that's where I'd put my money.
And of course, Anton, you're quite right in saying the development of artificial gravity would solve this problem. In fact, it would solve so many problems I don't think I could begin to list them all here!!
But, Adrian, your last comment is the crux of the matter. As long as people are content to never set foot on Earth, there is no problem. But babies born on, say, the Moon, will never get the chance to decide that for themselves. Although they belong to a species designed, adapted, and built to live on their home planet, Earth, they will be forever doomed to live only on the Moon or maybe the moons of the outer Solar System. Even Martian and Mercurian gravity would probably be too much for them!
Incidentally, Adrian, you're right! This is almost certainly the wrong place to be discussing this stuff .... and I think I'm the main culprit in having digressed so badly! My apologies.

quasar777 · 2002-05-06 16:37:00

why would anyone want to inflict 1g on a child born on mars? i doubt mar`s children would want to go to earth, they would be entirely different from us. they would be twice as strong in 1/6 g however.

Anton Kuratnik · 2002-05-07 16:46:35

Did you want to new zealand? Australia? Brazil? Russia? Wherever? I sure did. And I think to see a new PLANET, not a new COUNTRY, however the same it might be, will be worth a two-month living in increasing gravity conditions.

Peter Pevensie · 2002-05-08 06:05:04

Anyone mind if I try to bring this back on topic?

As I have seen many of us talk about doing it, not many really do anything. So lets try to as neatly and as detailed as possible make a plan for a human mission to Mars.
First, lets think about the outline of the mission:
1. What will the first mission be - just an exploration or a colonization? Should we first send men to explore Mars closely or already to settle down there.
2. The above question brings us to another question: how many men should go? Two? Three? Ten? Two hundred? It depends on the goal. If we need to explore, I would say no more than 30 men. If it is a colonization, than we would need 100 at least.
Lets start out with those two and see what we get at. After that we can do a bit more.

Regarding your first question, Anton, I'd say that the first mission should be a combination of the two. From my perspective, our first mission to Mars should have as one of its primary goals the survey of some small portion of the planet to determine its suitability for a (more or less) continuously manned research station. Some portion of the equipment landed for that first mission should be designed to form the hub of such a station (I believe both Mars Direct and the NASA Reference Mission have this consideration built in to them). Later missions would add to this hub until it was sufficient to house a small (perhaps no more than 50?) research staff with the goal of determining whether life exists on Mars. Due to important ethical considerations, I think it's imperitive that we determine whether life exists on Mars before we begin (or allow) any effort that could lead toward permanent colonization of the planet.

By the time scientists have gathered enough data to make that determination, I think there would probably be several governments, private organizations, and consortia of the two who were ready to proceed with colonization should conditions warrant.

Christina · 2002-05-11 09:34:46

Later missions would add to this hub until it was sufficient to house a small (perhaps no more than 50?) research staff with the goal of determining whether life exists on Mars. Due to important ethical considerations, I think it's imperitive that we determine whether life exists on Mars before we begin (or allow) any effort that could lead toward permanent colonization of the planet.
By the time scientists have gathered enough data to make that determination, I think there would probably be several governments, private organizations, and consortia of the two who were ready to proceed with colonization should conditions warrant.

^^ Absolutely.

And by the time all that happens, I'll be safely in my grave...

But I do hope not. Lets hope the sample return mission does go on time.

HeloTeacher · 2002-05-11 10:02:40

Just a shot in the dark here, and maybe it's just me but...

...as I see it the biggest impediment to the kind of mission that most people posting here want to see is the society we live. NASA is trying to create a typical 21st century zero-risk mission. Until we accept that there are risks involved and people willing to brave them, and then start taking these risks, we are doomed to talk about a mission that will never happen.

Even the Apollo program accepted much more risk than NASA is willing to look at now.

There are many of us out here willing to accept more but we are not the policy makers or the 'chosen few' so things will progress as they do right now.

feel free to critique...

Mark S · 2002-05-11 19:10:28

It doesn't look like there will be a humans to mars mission in the near future if we can trust NASA's recent polls of public attitudes toward space. 60% of Americans are opposed to sending men to Mars, and they control NASA's purse strings and directions. Without the bucks, there will be no Buck Rogers. It seems funny that Zubrin did not give much thought to public opinion when he wrote "Case For Mars." But in Michael Collins's "Mission to Mars," the Apollo astronaut illuminates the problem that the mission will face. I think that the only way to turn the tide of public opinion is with a positive result for life when we finally retrieve samples from Mars.

Phobos · 2002-05-12 12:36:59

It would be so nice if a Mars mission could be entirely funded
by non-government sources. If that happened we wouldn't have to give a #### what the public thinks.

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