Back on Mars

karov · 2013-10-24 00:47:43

http://m.space.com/23287-mars-atmospher … 3_13486424

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_ocean_hypothesis -- 1000-ish mBars surface pressure! Excellent!

SO, if it ( H2O & CO2 ) is all in-there..?

Void · 2013-10-30 17:32:28

Given the proposal of a vast primordial ocean on Mars, the fate of the water requires explanation. As the Martian climate cooled, the surface of the ocean would have frozen. One hypothesis states that part of the ocean remains in a frozen state buried beneath a thin layer of rock, debris, and dust on the flat northern plain Vastitas Borealis.[20] The water could have also been absorbed into the subsurface cryosphere[2] or been lost to the atmosphere (by sublimation) and eventually to space through atmospheric sputtering.[13]

If there were a remnant of the ocean buried benieth a thin layer of rock, debris, and dust on the flat northern plain Vastitas Borealis. That would be my target. Surely if there had ever been life on the planet, you would find remnants in the ice, or if not in the sediments under it.

Even though I think that remnant is not so likely, it would be my target for terraformation. (Antarctic Dry Valleys Blah Blah Blah).

In such a situation, only a moderate warming of the planet by atmospheric terraformation would be required, just a window of part of the Mars year where liquid water could exist, as ice water.

A more mechanical means would be to melt the ice by injecting heat. A melted subsurface would provide an envronment to grow massive amounts of biomatter by also injecting chemicals, and of course if the atmospheric pressure were improved a bit, it might be possible to stabilize exposed ice on the surface of the ocean, allowing light to shine into the water, and also supporting photosyntisis.

I admit it is a bit optimistic, but it would beat waiting 200 years to completly thaw out Mars using greenhouse gasses. (That could be done as well, but before a surface biosphere could exist, a subsurface, under ice biosphere might be possible).

Last edited by Void (2013-10-30 17:35:01)

RobertDyck · 2013-10-30 22:06:23

I have a copy of the book Terraforming: Engineering Planetary Environments written by Martyn J. Fogg. This is another book I got through the Mars Society web store. It's a text book, but estimate Mars atmosphere if all dry ice were sublimated. They include not only surface dry ice, but also dry ice frost adsorbed into the soil.

Page 271 of the hard cover edition:
Table 6.1 MARTIAN CARBON DIOXIDE RESERVOIRS

Constrained
----------------------------------------------
Atmosphere                    ~7 mbar
Polar Caps                    <a few mbar [8]
Adsorbed in regolith          <280 mbar   [8]
                              <190 mbar   [9]
Loss to space over past 3 Gyr <10 mbar    [10]

Unconstrained
----------------------------------------------
Carbonate formation           several bars
Early impact erosion          >1 bar

[8] Fanale, F.P., Savail, J.R., Banerdt, W.B. and Saunders, S.R., "Mars: The Regolith- Atmosphere-Cap System and Climate Change," Icarus, 59, 381-407, 1982.

[9] Zent, A.P., Fanale, F.P. and Postawko, S.E., "Carbon Dioxide: Absorption on Palogonite and Partioning in the Martian Regolith," Icarus, 71. 241-259, 1987.

[10] Pollack, J.B. and Yung, Y.L., "Origin and Evolution of Planetary Atmospheres," Ann. Rev. Earth Planet. Sci., 8, 425-487, 1980.

The text book concludes that the question of where Mars early atmosphere went is answered by the unconstrained items. However, simply warming Mars to sublimate all remaining dry ice would produce surface pressure between 200 and 300 mbars. That would be a CO2 atmosphere, but enough pressure for humans to walk on the surface without a pressure suit. They would need an oxygen mask, but that's a lot safer than a spacesuit.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2013-10-31 23:44:19)

RobertDyck · 2013-10-30 22:31:10

Mars Express radar gauges water quantity around Mars’ south pole

15 March 2007
The amount of water trapped in frozen layers over Mars' south polar region is equivalent to a liquid layer about 11 metres deep covering the planet.
This new estimate comes from mapping the thickness of the dusty ice by the Mars Express radar instrument that has made more than 300 virtual slices through layered deposits covering the pole. The radar sees through icy layers to the lower boundary, which in places is as deep as 3.7 kilometres below the surface.

Thickness_of_Mars_South_Polar_Layered_Deposits_small.jpg
Thickness of Mars' South Polar Layered Deposits

I'm going to add my own spin. This means there is enough water in the south polar cap alone to cover the entire planet 11 metres deep. But of course it wouldn't cover the planet evenly. Tops of mountains would remain dry, while low lying areas like the dried up ocean basin in the north would fill deeper. Once you include the north polar ice cap, glaciers that have been discovered in craters, frozen pack ice, and permafrost, there's enough water to fill the ancient ocean basin. Perhaps not as deep as it was, but would cover the ancient ocean floor and part way up the coastal escarpment. That's still an ocean.

To put it a cute way, or dramatic effect for a speech: Where did the ocean go? Found it!

Last edited by RobertDyck (2013-10-31 09:19:55)

karov · 2013-10-31 01:54:16

I think Fogg's data is desperatelly outdated.
Now there are new clues and evidence, showing clearly that alost none of the water and atmosphere of the planet have escaped but got frozen, and available for re-fluidization.

RobertDyck · 2013-10-31 09:43:13

Fogg is one of the few references that have actual data. I attended the 3rd and 4th Canadian Space Exploration Workshops; the 3rd was in Ottawa, the 4th at Canadian Space Agency headquarters. The purpose was to identify goals for Canada's participation in exploring Mars. At the 3rd I asked to quantify the CO2 budget. Several said "you want to terraform!". I pointed out the data could be used for an accurate weather model, to predict Mars global dust storms for future missions. But they just repeated "you want to terraform!", treated me as a nut job and walked away. One specialist in synthetic aperture radar said he wanted to participate. Just one. Now that Mars Express is in orbit with MARSIS, and Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter with SHARAD, it should just be a matter of data analysis. In fact Mars Express did find a large dry ice deposit embedded within the south polar ice cap. I emailed Martyn Fogg and asked him to update his estimates, but he said he is no longer involved in that field.

Void · 2013-10-31 14:54:03

I recall, but make no formal references, that that C02 desposite if vaporized would raise the average surface pressure to 11 mb.
That that pressure would allow actual snowfalls, and the snow could then melt and form temporary streams under favorable conditions.

I consider that to be a starter for Terraformation, where likely micro organism could give assistance to terraformation, perhaps releasing methane in some situations.

I am not against any schemes to introduce greenhouse gasses by non-organic technological means, but I also don't mind if micro organisms work in parallel to that.

Temporary streams could also enhance the planet for humans, where they could collect it convenienty in some cases.

I have a notion of yet another potential contributer, which could be used on top of surfaces that have significant ice below.

A mostly transparent pillow, with a skirt around it's perimeter. The notion would be to place it upon such a surface, and burry the skirt with soil and rock. Sunlight would pass through the upper wall, and then through its very slightly pressurized interior and finally through the floor, warming the icy materials below. The interior of the pillow could be weighted down in spots with weights (Rocks), to keep any vapors produced from pushing the pillow off of the surface. The vapors might freeze under the skirt, sealing the device to the surface, and the hope would be that a transparent window of ice could be formed below that and that below that liquid water. Should there be a content of CO2, then that might get vented to atmosphere somehow, but that complicates things. Anyway it would have to earn it's keep, presumably by some economic value, presumably some biological activity in the water below that might be of benefit to humans.

The idea presumes a multitude of such windows over an ice body. Of course over time the water would escape, but with good construction, it might persist for some time, until the climate of Mars was so improved that snow melts (Temporary streams) could replenish it.

Again I say that I have no problem with the traditional notions of greenhouse gas terraformation, I am just suggesting this as a possible additional activity.

Returning to the supposed 11 mb mean or average value on the surface, lower elivations would be considerably better, just guessing maybe 20 mb in Hellas.

Last edited by Void (2013-10-31 14:55:49)

GW Johnson · 2013-11-01 15:17:06

What about redirecting mostly-ice "comets" to impact Mars? Not the mostly-mineral ones, we'd have to find the mostly-ice ones.

If I had to guess (and I am not qualified to guess), I say half the water ionizes to H and O, half stays steam. The H escapes quickly, the O contributes to the atmosphere as O2, and the steam precipitates as water and ice. Keep doing that until you have crashed around a cubic mile (7-10 cubic km) worth of ice, and you should have an mostly-O2 atmosphere near 0.28-0.30 atm pressure, with a trace of CO2 for the breathing reflex, and enough ocean to cover a quarter-or-more of Mars to around 10 m deep, although probably covered in pack ice.

Just a wild guess. Really wild. But there it is.

About all we'd really need is some "hot" propulsion to go way out there quickly and deflect these things many years out in their orbits, and some space-based instruments to find them in the first place.

Not canals-of-Mars, but not yet quite do-able, although it soon could be.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2013-11-01 15:19:55)

Terraformer · 2013-11-01 17:51:29

You're going to be hitting them at some velocity then... the minimum velocity would be about 5km/s, and that's assuming almost all the kinetic energy goes into heating the ice and breaking it. Maybe hitting them retrograde? But then you're going to risk blowing off the atmosphere...

Mars has a surface area of about 1.45e11 sq. meters. To provide 100mb of pressure, you need 2.7 tonnes on each of those square meters, so ~3.9e11 tonnes. If we're converting half of our water to oxygen to get 100mb, we're going to need 8.7e11 tonnes of ice. Each cubic km has 1e9 tonnes, so that's 870 cubic kilometers for 100mb of O2. That's... going to do some major damage, one way or another. If you're using it to sculpt the planet though...

Still, it ups the water content, and targeted right could cause a lot of outgassing.

karov · 2013-11-02 05:44:47

Guys,

I mean - it seems everything we need is already there...

another quote:

By one estimate, the Tharsis bulge contains around 300 million km3 of igneous material. Assuming the magma that formed Tharsis contained carbon dioxide (CO2) and water vapor in percentages comparable to that observed in Hawaiian basaltic lava, then the total amount of gases released from Tharsis magmas could have produced a 1.5-bar CO2 atmosphere and a global layer of water 120 m thick.[23] Martian magmas also likely contain significant amounts of sulfur and chlorine. These elements combine with water to produce acids that can break down primary rocks and minerals. Exhalations from Tharsis and other volcanic centers on the planet are likely responsible for an early period of Martian time (the Theiikian[27]) when sulfuric acid weathering produced abundant hydrated sulfate minerals such as kieserite and gypsum.

... and no need of any import. No need of "greenhouse gases" - just runaway evaporation / meltdown with soleta?

soleta? why? isn't THIS enough:

This machines, which I call “the weather machine,” has a radiative forcing capability. For comparison, the radiative forcing capability for CO2, as generally mentioned in the global warming theories, is about one watt per square meter. This machine essentially has a kilowatt per square meter of radiative forcing capability. It completely trumps any natural influence of that kind that’s out there or that we can imagine. If you are worried about our all dying because of global warming, or if you are one of the people who is worried about our all falling into an ice age, we can fix that.

-- J. Storrs Hall

http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/peopl … r-machine/

Last edited by karov (2013-11-02 06:06:36)

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