Mars Economic Activity

louis · 2012-01-17 16:23:40

SpaceNut wrote:

I see a trend I all of the economy threads thus far and its all one way back to Earth bound investment and profits of those on Earth.
What about these other directions for investment or profit to be had....
What about the wages of the settlers?

Well let's limit this to the first 20 years. We will be doing well if we have 1,000 people there by then. If they each earn say $50,000 per annum (plenty of money, since nearly all their living expenses will be covered) we are still only talking about $50million per annum - set against huge investment and revenue earnings in the billions.

I think it probably only makes sense to talk about wages once we have a Mars money economy on Mars. Initially there will in effect be cost free rationing and free accommodation.

SpaceNut wrote:

What about the settlement of one place to another on the same destination(Mars or Moon)?

I think there will certainly be separate settlements early on but most will be quite small I think - e.g. mining or coms centres. For both Moon and Mars I expect there will be one big major settlement.

SpaceNut wrote:

What about the Destination place Mars or Moon to another Mars or Moon settlement?

I think there could be a developing Mars-Moon trading system. Lunar settlements might find it easier to get some materials and even finished goods from Mars. Mars might buy in rocket fuel from the Moon.

SpaceNut · 2012-01-18 20:35:57

Scientists pining for a sample return from Mars have a consolation prize -- rocks recently found in Morocco are freshly arrived bits from our neighbor planet.

The rocks not only are rare because they came from Mars -- of the roughly 24,000 meteorites that have been discovered on Earth, only about 34 hail from the red planet, NASA says -- they also just arrived.

Scientists believe they plummented to Earth in a meteorite shower last July. They were recovered in Morocco in December.

The biggest of the 15 rocks weighs more than 2 pounds. They're worth 10 times the price of gold.

louis · 2012-01-18 20:51:15

SpaceNut wrote:

Scientists pining for a sample return from Mars have a consolation prize -- rocks recently found in Morocco are freshly arrived bits from our neighbor planet.
The rocks not only are rare because they came from Mars -- of the roughly 24,000 meteorites that have been discovered on Earth, only about 34 hail from the red planet, NASA says -- they also just arrived.
Scientists believe they plummented to Earth in a meteorite shower last July. They were recovered in Morocco in December.
The biggest of the 15 rocks weighs more than 2 pounds. They're worth 10 times the price of gold.

Ten times - that's about $500 per gram then. According to some people such figures are "Pie in the sky"!

Terraformer · 2012-01-19 04:06:59

They are if you're looking to flood the market - they're only that valuable because of their rarity.

louis · 2012-01-19 07:18:50

Terraformer wrote:

They are if you're looking to flood the market - they're only that valuable because of their rarity.

...and there will be no rare minerals or meteorites on Mars, of a kind never found on Earth?

JoshNH4H · 2012-01-19 12:30:48

...and there will be no rare minerals or meteorites on Mars, of a kind never found on Earth?

Almost certainly not. The laws of physics and chemistry are the same on Mars as they are on Earth, and the geological processes are basically the same, with the exception that those on Mars are somewhat less varied than those on Earth, and that the processes which tend to produce the widest varieties of minerals and ores, vulcanism and water flow, were less significant in shaping the face of the planet Mars than they were on Earth. Likewise, similar meteorites strike the planet Mars as strike the planet Earth and there is little reason to believe that there would be anything particularly special about a meteorite found on Mars.

What marginally different geological formations will be found will no doubt be considered quite fascinating to geologists as well as areologists (Term from KSR's Mars Trilogy, e.g., Martian geologist), but very probably will have little market value on Earth.

JoshNH4H · 2012-01-19 12:56:54

Oh, and by the way, in terms of the actual prices of the meteorites:

This article states that the meteorites are going for $11,000/0z-$25,000/oz. That is equivalent to $388/g-$794/g. However, please consider the ways in which these samples are special:

This is only the fifth time which an identified Martian meteorite has been seen falling to Earth, and the first time in the last 50 years
It was lying on the ground for a period of months, which in this context and especially this location (Morocco, probably in the Sahara) will lead to very little contamination
The guy who found them has a monopoly on selling martian meteorites of this quality
There were only 7 kg

If you're importing 2-4 tonnes of the stuff per year, as you have suggested, will the price go down? Absolutely. And a hell of a lot, too. I'm sticking with $10/g-$25/g for Martian meteorites, and of course less in profit.

Last edited by JoshNH4H (2012-01-19 12:57:25)

sanman · 2013-03-31 17:40:19

The most valuable things in a Martian economy will be the things most in demand - air, water, food, energy (basically the equipment that produces them, and also stores them)

People will also want living space - mere real estate isn't good enough. You need enclosed habitable living living space on your real estate in order to make use of it.

Electric vehicles, resource harvesting equipment, robots and of course space suits, without which your freedom of activity may be severely limited.

louis · 2013-04-01 08:26:15

JoshNH4H wrote:

Oh, and by the way, in terms of the actual prices of the meteorites:
This article states that the meteorites are going for $11,000/0z-$25,000/oz. That is equivalent to $388/g-$794/g. However, please consider the ways in which these samples are special:
This is only the fifth time which an identified Martian meteorite has been seen falling to Earth, and the first time in the last 50 years
It was lying on the ground for a period of months, which in this context and especially this location (Morocco, probably in the Sahara) will lead to very little contamination
The guy who found them has a monopoly on selling martian meteorites of this quality
There were only 7 kg
If you're importing 2-4 tonnes of the stuff per year, as you have suggested, will the price go down? Absolutely. And a hell of a lot, too. I'm sticking with $10/g-$25/g for Martian meteorites, and of course less in profit.

As I've explained the number of meteorites coming on to the market has expanded hugely over teh last 50 years but meteorites can still realise very high values. Meteorites from the surface of Mars will have even greater intrinsic value for both scientists, museums and private collectors.

louis · 2013-04-01 08:27:48

sanman wrote:

The most valuable things in a Martian economy will be the things most in demand - air, water, food, energy (basically the equipment that produces them, and also stores them)
People will also want living space - mere real estate isn't good enough. You need enclosed habitable living living space on your real estate in order to make use of it.
Electric vehicles, resource harvesting equipment, robots and of course space suits, without which your freedom of activity may be severely limited.

True, but I think initially all these things will be provided free by the Mars Consortium or whoever gets there first, because for the consortium, the most valuable thing is getting people there to realise the value of the place e.g. by collecting meteorites.

SpaceNut · 2015-04-19 19:06:04

This is the newest of the possible topics to add this post to, the other is » Martian Politics and Economy» Creating the Cis-Lunar economy.

This is partly due to the 3 D printing but I am sure that it will branch out with time.

Made In Space Begins Selling “Terrestrial Offerings”

Made In Space hopes that some of their products will be purchased for reasons other than 3D printing. Advertised to museums, space collectors, and 3D printing enthusiasts, the AstroABS Canister serves as a contemporary space souvenir, identical to the space hardware currently aboard the International Space Station, and as a form of support for the Made In Space vision.
The first product offerings will focus on the plastic filament that Made In Space uses for in-space manufacturing. Four main filament products are available for pre-order today with prices that reflect their level of space readiness. These initial products are meant for a range of potential customers, from makers who want quality printer feedstock at affordable prices to zero-gravity designers who want to use Made In Space’s “AstroABS” to reduce the differences between their test prints on Earth and their planned prints in space. With the inclusion of the “AstroABS Canister” product, Made In Space hopes that some of their products will be purchased for reasons other than 3D printing. Advertised to museums, space collectors, and 3D printing enthusiasts, the AstroABS Canister serves as a contemporary space souvenir, identical to the space hardware currently aboard the International Space Station, and as a form of support for the Made In Space vision.
100% of Made In Space’s profits from all of the products will be used to further the company’s vision for creating a multi-planetary civilization. By leveraging the new capabilities that exponential technologies provide, Made In Space plans to continue revolutionizing what it means to be a modern space developer and create the necessary tools that will enable humanity to colonize space.
“This terrestrial store is a logical extension of the Made In Space explorer spirit.

knightdepaix · 2015-05-04 19:58:34

For construction materials, iron is available by simply reducing the iron oxides found on surface. How about Graphene? Using solar energy to make graphene and graphene oxides from the CO2 atmospheres and ice cap. Is the Martian low gravity an advantage for their manufacture. Also these allotropes and compounds will be used and manufactured in bulk amount anyway for construction on Mars so a surplus would be sold to earth industries.

A larger perspective is taking advantage of the lower gravity and thinner atmosphere on Mars for new and exotic manufacturing by robots. Then you have carbon steel, graphene, chlorine oxides and percarbonate as bleaches, silicones, silicon-based semiconductor for CPU etc.

louis · 2015-06-05 18:27:00

knightdepaix wrote:

For construction materials, iron is available by simply reducing the iron oxides found on surface. How about Graphene? Using solar energy to make graphene and graphene oxides from the CO2 atmospheres and ice cap. Is the Martian low gravity an advantage for their manufacture. Also these allotropes and compounds will be used and manufactured in bulk amount anyway for construction on Mars so a surplus would be sold to earth industries.
A larger perspective is taking advantage of the lower gravity and thinner atmosphere on Mars for new and exotic manufacturing by robots. Then you have carbon steel, graphene, chlorine oxides and percarbonate as bleaches, silicones, silicon-based semiconductor for CPU etc.

An important perspective on all this is that the Mars colony will be tiny to begin with so Earth can afford to lavish resources on the human population. Processes that on Earth might be considered ruinously expensive will be perfectly economical in terms of developing a Mars colony.

SpaceNut · 2015-06-06 20:07:51

There is some work on selective laser 3D printing
Lots of Mars analog site stuff in this report
http://files.hawaii.gov/dbedt/annuals/2 … pisces.pdf

louis · 2015-06-07 04:58:16

SpaceNut wrote:

There is some work on selective laser 3D printing
Lots of Mars analog site stuff in this report
http://files.hawaii.gov/dbedt/annuals/2 … pisces.pdf

That's an interesting doc I must read in more detail. I have always been interested in use of basalt to make useful objects on Mars e.g. kitchen vessels and utensils, some farm tools etc. Using basalt dust in 3D printers could be a good way forward.

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-09-16 10:12:51

louis wrote:

knightdepaix wrote:
For construction materials, iron is available by simply reducing the iron oxides found on surface. How about Graphene? Using solar energy to make graphene and graphene oxides from the CO2 atmospheres and ice cap. Is the Martian low gravity an advantage for their manufacture. Also these allotropes and compounds will be used and manufactured in bulk amount anyway for construction on Mars so a surplus would be sold to earth industries.
A larger perspective is taking advantage of the lower gravity and thinner atmosphere on Mars for new and exotic manufacturing by robots. Then you have carbon steel, graphene, chlorine oxides and percarbonate as bleaches, silicones, silicon-based semiconductor for CPU etc.
An important perspective on all this is that the Mars colony will be tiny to begin with so Earth can afford to lavish resources on the human population. Processes that on Earth might be considered ruinously expensive will be perfectly economical in terms of developing a Mars colony.

For example a Solar Power Satellite might be too expensive for Earth, but Martian colonists have to travel through space to get to Mars, and placing an SPS satellite adequate to all the power needs of the Mars colony, might be cheaper than hauling all those solar panels from Earth, landing them on Mars, and placing them on the surface of the planet and then having to worry about power storage at night!

If you have a small Solar Power satellite beaming a laser or a microwave beam at a receiving station on Mars, since Mars is tilted on an axis, that power will be continuously available throughout most of the Martian year.

Another case in point, no one would dream of having a portable nuclear reactor to power and heat his home on Earth, but on Mars it makes perfect sense. You could also have atomic powered cars, the problems of hazardous waste may be put off until Mars is more heavily populated and their are people who are concerned about it.

vemsemigma · 2018-03-30 20:45:23

Court tell me they have only recently sent the defence statement to other side and Mars say they are still going ahead
suppose I will have to wait and see what they say in their reply to the court

barney

knightdepaix · 2019-04-19 15:02:28

Can the dust storm particles be collected and mined? Magnesium and silicon right there

elderflower · 2019-04-21 03:37:55

Dust will be incorporated in dunes, which may be very easy to mine. Separation of fine dust from more massive particles will be quite easy. We need someone to go with sieves and shovel and access to a physical/chemical laboratory.

SpaceNut · 2019-04-21 08:46:49

I put forth in another topic a street sweeper truck that would draw up the fines for collecting and bring them back to the processing plant.

knightdepaix · 2019-04-22 18:05:16

Alright, I am combining multiple ideas into fueling the martian economy.
1) Venus:
Supercritical carbon dioxide in Venusian atmosphere are converted into liquid or solid carbon monoxide, oxygen and vast amount of energy which is first exploited by floating factory complex and interplanetary transports on liquid oxygen fuel. The energy is also used to break down sulfuric acid cloud particles to hydrogen sulfide and oxygen. Extra leftover energy is upconverted to a beam of electromagnetic radiation from the complex to synchronous artificial satellites on Venusian orbit and then to artificial satellites on the Earth orbit, then to Mars. Hydrogen sulfide can be exported.

4) Mars orbit:

SpaceNut wrote:

I would make use of the same satelites which we will need for radio relays and for planet wide GPS to form the back bone of a field generator.
Beaming microwave energy between them and setting up a plasma field setting by leaking argon or neon or other elements that we can control in this field to create a shield.

The artificial magnetosphere on Martian orbit is going to consume the imported energy from Venus.

Imported or local hydrogen sulfides react with mineral to generate water, sulfide minerals and silica.
Are the about one third gravity of Earth, low atmospheric pressure and thin atmosphere on Mars useful?

Can the Martian carbon dioxide be converted into carbon and oxygen in massive and economical scale? The carbon is made into carbon nanotube or other nanotechnological fantasies.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2019-04-22 18:09:54)

knightdepaix · 2019-04-22 18:42:36

Talking about nanotube, there are inorganic and carbon nanotubes.
Martian atmosphere is almost full of carbon dioxide that is the material for carbon.

Also, how about cemetery? Deceased is buried in Mars? Cryonics? Its commercial services is charged.
Artifact replicas or originals of historical values are sent to Mars from destruction.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-04-23 06:39:27

NASA Selects Private Companies To Ship Supplies, Science To The Moon Ahead Of Human Missions
https://www.wmfe.org/nasa-selects-priva … ons/112552

Xi orders building world-leading spacecraft launch site
http://en.ce.cn/main/latest/202204/15/t … 7655.shtml

In space race, Europe faces choice: passenger or pilot
https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/ … lot.931639

Elon Musk has said any future economy on Mars could be cryptocurrency based.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-styl … 79456.html

Calliban · 2022-06-24 07:41:46

I am reading through Peter Zeihan's latest book. One of the many interesting things he discusses is the different stages of manufacturing and the different skillsets and wage levels involved. High end chip manufacturing is a high tech operation mostly carried out in the US and pays high wages. Injection molding and low end manufacturing is carried out in China. Assembly is carried out in the Philipines and India and some lower wage parts of China.

On Mars, there is not going to be any low wage base people. It will cost a fortune to get there and will be expensive to live. Everyone on Mars will be high skill and high pay. There are strong financial incentives towards localising manufacturing, because importing anything will be very expensive. And yet for a long time to come scale economies will be weak. The only solutions that I can see are things like 3D printing and a lot of automation. But these are complex high end machinery that Martians will not be able to produce themselves until they number in the tens of millions. Design services will mostly be Earth based. These services are almost free to send by radio waves.

SpaceNut · 2022-06-24 07:50:24

The US is no longer is connecting technology of manufacturing with knowledge required to support paying people a wage that corresponds but rather treating them more like general labor that anyone can do what you do in the assembly lines. I saw this in the computer industry, machining businesses and more industries in NH. Some companies located in areas where the skills were selected that way on purpose as to make profit higher. They trust on quality of test and other controls to keep the product made acceptable.

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