Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars.

Void · 2012-12-28 09:00:47

It may have been suggested before, but I think that the easiest method to alter Mars would be to eject dust from Phobos into
the atmosphere of Mars.

While it might make things better from a terraformers point of view, that is not gauranteed.

I would hope to soak up the chlorine atoms and get them to eventually drop to the surface and hopefully mostly stay there, allowing an improved Ozone protection from UV on the surface.

It might also alter precipitation patterns, as I have read that high layers of atmosphere on Mars often get supersaturated with water at night. I presume that this is because of lack of materials for ice to nucleate on.

So, cloud seeding using moon dust. Perhaps it could be targeted over deep basins, such as the rift valley, to raise the average humidity.

With greater UV protection, and greater relative humidity, day/night transitional dews/frosts might be more significant and maybe a minimum threshold could be met to allow lichens to grow in those low spots with more access to water dews/frosts.

My understanding is that the surface materials of Phobos have been significantly reduced of Oxygen by spluttering from the solar wind particles, so maybe it has a degree of magnitism, so perhaps a magnetic launcher of some kind could push it off of Phobos and into the atmosphere of Mars, in the manner of targeted cloud seeding.

The above picture is said to be a lichen that maintained motabolism for 30 days in a full Mars simulation. The experiment ended, so it is not known how long it could hold on, or maybe even grow. It apparently is an example of survival within a crack in rock or even soil, which apparently is survival favorable.

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-bl … -mars.html

It is thought that a degree of protection from harmful radiation was a factor, but I also wonder if the dews/Frosts are more significant in the cracks of rocks or soil.

At any rate if an improved UV radiation and humidity environment were caused to occur, perhaps all the rock surfaces would support such a growth.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication … s_below_0C
Quote:

Abstract
Laboratory measurements show that lichens are extremely tolerant of freezing stress and of low-temperature exposure. Metabolic activity recovered quickly after severe and extended cold treatment. Experimental results demonstrate also that CO2 exchange is already active at around −20°C. The psychrophilic character of polar lichen species is demonstrated by optimum temperatures for net photosynthesis between 0 and 15°C. In situ measurements show that lichens begin photosynthesizing below 0°C if the dry thalli receive fresh snow. The lowest temperature measured in active lichens was −17°C at a continental Antarctic site. The fine structure and the hydration state of photobiont and mycobiont cells were studied by low-temperature scanning electron microscopy (LTSEM) of frozen hydrated specimens. Water potentials of the frozen system are in the range of or even higher than those allowing dry lichens to start photosynthesis by water vapor uptake at +10°C. The great success of lichens in polar and high alpine regions gives evidence of their physiological adaptation to low temperatures. In general lichens are able to persist through glacial periods, but extended snow cover and glaciation are limiting factors.

I actually have value in mind more than terraforming:
http://www.uni-graz.at/~grubem/treasure.pdf
If possible then the lichens might be a source of chemicals to humans on the planet.

Of course it previously been suggested by others, that dust from Martian moons could be distributed to the polar caps to change the reaction to sunlight.

Aerogel particles: (Much more far fetched)

Much more complicated and related to posts by others on this web site would be the manufacture of an aerogel dust to inject into the atmosphere. I know that aerogel cannot float in the Earths amosphere, but I wonder if it's interior cells were filled with Helium or Nitrogen if it is possible to float in the dominantly CO2 atmosphere of Mars?

There has been previous talk about floating habitats on Venus, so I feel it is worth asking. What purpose might they serve?
One possiblity would be to cause the tops of the particles to be reflective, and the sides and bottoms to be absorbing of sunlight. Then they would cool the equator, and perhaps warm the poles. This might cause a redistribution of mositure from the poles to the equator. Of course if the equator got too cold, then that would harm any intentions to foster life at the equator.

Last edited by Void (2012-12-28 09:26:53)

Koeng · 2012-12-28 15:56:55

Sorry I didn't read the entire article yet (I will) but I read somewhere bacteria are can nucleate water to ice! Perhaps using them in a form of terraforming would be a good idea....

-Koeng

Koeng · 2012-12-28 16:02:47

I wish they would tell us the species they used.

-Koeng

Void · 2012-12-28 17:54:17

Perhaps the outer cell structure could be replicated and mass produced in some similar enough form to do the job.

Anyway, I can hear the shadows calling. I intend to respond politely to those who responded in such a manner to my posts as may be decent behavior, and then to take another long break. I had just loaded up on ideas, and now that I dumped them, I get to move on. Nice talking.

JoshNH4H · 2012-12-28 22:19:10

It has been suggested before... I don't know about atmospherics, and seeing as an atmosphere is huge both in volume and mass it's hard to imagine that it would change much. I'd also like to point out that no matter how supersaturated the upper atmosphere is, there can't be much water up there. It's also worth noting that even if there was nucleation and precipitation, it would probably evaporate in the hyperarid lower layers before it hit the ground.

The most important effect it could have is heating the poles. I think the current estimates are that 10 K of heating at both poles would result in a runaway greenhouse effect from evaporation of Carbon Dioxide ice. Right now the poles have an albedo around .8. Phobos and demos are around .1... I think it's pretty obvious where I'm going.

Void · 2012-12-29 06:09:04

I guess then there are three potential uses for the dust.
1) Change the chemestry of the upper atmosphere.
2) Try to increase the mositure content of a particular basin by moving moisture content downward with nucleation.
3) Dirty up the polar ice caps.

Having those three available to try, perhaps a combination would be workable.

3) Dirty up the polar ice caps, and increase the mean pressure from 6 mb to 11 mb. My understanding is that that would make it more possible for actual snow to fall. Also an almost double atmosphere should contain considerably more moisture.
2) Try to see if you can seed greater ice fogs or even snow into the Valles_Marineris
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris
1) Change the chemestry of the upper atmosphere, hoping to remove the chlorine, and allow some ozone to form.

And then seed Valles Marineris with whatever could grow there, lichens and cyanobacteria. If they could take hold, then their biological activities could further modify the environment, such as releasing Methane.

So by putting a magnetic launcher on to a moon you could easily try to do all three.

It might be however that for the fog seeding / snow seeding, a processed agent would want a manufactured agent specifically enchanced for it's purpose. Also the same for trying to bond Chlorine to a metalic material, and get it to fall down to the surface and stay there.

I really think that this would be a good avenue to continue on.

I have used the upper number of 11 mb, because I have read that the southern ice cap is thought to contain enough dry ice for that. I think it may be in a localized spot on the sourthern ice cap, so maybe it would make sense to really try to target that deposite.

I know that others believe that their could be as much as 200 or 300 mb availible from other sources. I would start with the 11 mb number, and be consirvative, and be pleased to be wrong later.

At 11 mb it is said that it will be possible for temporary streams and ponds to form on Mars. If that is the case then it would be possible for settlers to capture those temporary occurances into Cisterns. A primitive technology, or is it? It doen't hurt to use the tried and true, when you have it and it is the best.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistern

I am sure that there will already be people on Mars before all this happens, but I am guessing they would welcome water comming from precipitation and melting.

The layers of the lower atmosphere are hyper arid in the sense of how much water they hold, but at night they become saturated, and in some of the upper layers super saturated. If the fog seeding / snow seeding were to occur at night, and if the ice fog or snow were to descend, it would not evaporate until the sun came up I think. Ice fogs occur naturally at times in this location an other locations. I would only want to try the multiply the occurances.

The purpose would be to cause a dew to form on lichens after sundown, and a melting at sunup. The lichen only need 30-60 seconds to become hydrated. It has already been simulated by the Germans that this can occur even at the natural conditions existing today on Mars, and that Lichens can grow in the cracks of rocks.

If some UV protection were given and a greater mositure content, then I would speculate that this would make it easier for the lichen to distribute to many rocks and sand surfaces. And cyanobacteria.

But yes by all means, the polar ice caps.

Last edited by Void (2012-12-29 06:17:23)

JoshNH4H · 2012-12-30 08:07:00

I agree with the thrust of your post but I think you are overestimating the amount of water in the Martian atmosphere... it is quite dry. Though certain layers may be supersaturated on occasion, that is probably more because of the extreme low temperatures than because of any significant amount of water existing there.

Void · 2012-12-30 13:43:19

Certainly your skeptisism is justified. It is appropriate that the idea should be challenged.

I do not propose to gaurantee a positive result, just a method of leverage that can be considered and who knows, made to work by further innovation.

I will say again however, that if the experiments by the Germans are true, it may be possible to implant lichen and cyanobacteria into the cracks of the rocks in the rift valley without any terraforming, and to hope that they can take hold. No gaurantee there either, just some positive indications, unless my interpretation is too optimistic, or I have not understood what is implied.

I believe that the present content is 1/13,000th (Estimate) of what the Earth atmosphere contains? But if it is already true that enough moisture exists, to water lichen or cyanobacteria in the cracks of rocks, then any improvement may help such an implant to more than survive but maybe even to thrive. So starting with the notion that a liquid phase may be possible to exist for 30 to 60 seconds twice each equitorial day, and also the fact that lichen can absorb mositure from frost even before the liquid phase, there is some reason to hope that an alteration of a microclimate at a particular location can be considered, perhaps an improvement in average amount of moisture.

I did mention ice fogs. The trick would be to puncture any stratification. I am only guessing that if you could cause a condensation to ice fog with particles in the higher atmosphere, you would also have to disrupt stratification, perhaps a descending plume of Phobos particles could initiate that. If a leak in a stratification were to occur with a descending flow, pressurization would heat it, so it would be neccessary for that heat to be vented off as infarred radiation. I think that could happen at night. It gets really cold I believe. The moment the ice fog turned back to vapor, much of the heat would dissapate to the universe. I might even hope for something like sleet, which in the thin Martian atmosphere, would drop like hailstones.
But there again perhaps I do not understand the Martian atmosphere and am projecting my understanding of the Earths atmosphere.

As I have said, I think it is an avenue to consider, and after all the objective would be to concentrate a pool of planetwide moisture down to a specific location of the surface. While it is true that the atmosphere is thin and contains much less moisture than that of the Earth, you would be drawing from the whole upper atmosphere over time, and trying to drop it into a portion of the rift valley. The natural atmospheric circulation would replenish the upper atmosphere on a daily basis I am thinking.

This is speculative, and I do not have the intellectual tools or the scientific information to argue very well on it I am more acting on what information I have and a degree of intuition (I hope).

Further speculation:
I do not know if the nighttime of the equator gets cold enough to condense CO2 if it were seeded with particles, but perhaps a variation of this would be to try to nucleate CO2 ice first, and try to have that drop down to collect H20 condensation ice, and by that hope to create particles that will drop quickly to the surface. During the dropping, compressive heating would be dissapated both by radiation of heat, and by the vaporization of the CO2 Ice. If this variation would not work for the rift valley, perhaps it would work in the winter in the Hellas depression, leaving a deposite of frozen water, perhaps in the southern part.

Am I wrong in rembering that such a deposition did occur at least once at one of the Viking sites?

Last edited by Void (2012-12-30 14:00:37)

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#1 2012-12-28 09:00:47

Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars.

#2 2012-12-28 15:56:55

Re: Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars.

#3 2012-12-28 16:02:47

Re: Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars.

#4 2012-12-28 17:54:17

Re: Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars.

#5 2012-12-28 22:19:10

Re: Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars.

#6 2012-12-29 06:09:04

Re: Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars.

#7 2012-12-30 08:07:00

Re: Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars.

#8 2012-12-30 13:43:19

Re: Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars.

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