A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

soph · 2003-01-31 14:40:03

what did i ever say about long and short term?

i guess my aunt, who lived in china for most of her life, knows less about china than your friend. i see, forgive me.

like i was saying, oppression of freedoms on earth isnt likely to be reversed in space. i really dont get why you cant connect one to the other. they arent going to have some idealogical system in space when they themselves have tight reigns on liberties on earth.

and no, dont put words in my mouth. i never said anybody is socially bankrupt. fabrications dont help your argument.

the fact that they have one system on earth is a pretty good idea that they will continue that trend into space. its very relevant. i didnt hijack anything, you were the one who began this line of discussion.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 15:10:17

Um, you said that the Chinese people were ?fiercely nationalistic,? which would arguably go against the whole concept of long term planning, at least in this context where we're arguing whether or not China would endevour in an Apollo-style mission to Mars.

I guess you aren't listening to me when I say I'm not defending current day China, but rather potential China. If your aunt doesn't see radical changes happening within China, then I pity her, because these changes are happening, and they just aren't affecting her yet.

Let's invent a hypothetical China moon base, and question whether or not, first, China has reason to control anyone, and in what scenerios they would control someone.

China has a base which supports five hundred people. China allows anyone access as long as they can get their and pay their way. I'm Josh Inc, and I want to set up my own Luna Dome next to China's base, and sell them hydroponic food for access to their electricity. At least until I can buy or build my own electrical facilities. Firstly, China, assuming they follow their Space Policy (which you've hardly debunked, except with empty rhetoric), would sell to me no matter what, as long as they have room, of course. And secondly, China would encourage self-reliance, so that I could have my own electrical facilities, so that I wouldn't have to use theirs, and depend on them. The only reason China would have to control anyone would be in the case of radical expansionists who wanted to take over the base and do with it what they willed.

NASA doesn't make such promises. Prove to me that I could have the same degree of freedom as China's Space Policy dictates with NASA, and I'll gladly change my mind.

soph · 2003-01-31 15:17:37

oh dear. i say i know, so i know, is your line. thats like me saying that england is a dump, never having been there. the change might come, but thats speculation. i would trust someone who was born and raised in china over someone whos never been there.

the changes that are happening are economic. they are moving to a free market, which has helped them tremendously.

however, you still keep coming back to the same point. why does nasa have to make these promises? in a country of freedoms, freedom in space would be self-evident! they are bound by our constitution, and thus, they would have to grant us our natural rights. china is bound by no such thing. china violates business deals left and right. they steal technology from companies they invite in. they call it "innovation," but its really taking the technology from the companies, giving it to their own, and building it themselves. what do you think they were doing with our spyplane?

and youre going to trust them to grant liberties to their subjects in space that they dont give their own people? forget 50 years from now, because change aint happening in the next 5 to 10 years, at least the change you speak of.

nationalism and long term planning are not mutually exclusive. i cant even begin to imagine this notion. hitler was fiercely nationalistic, and he certainly had a long term plan.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 15:43:36

What I'm saying is like you saying that England is a dump after having a lot of people tell you that it is a dump and reading that it is a dump. There's a difference.

The changes that are occuring in China are more than just economic. From coming down on corruption, to cleaning up the electorate and teaching levels of democracy at the local level, to decentralization of resources. Of course, since you have an aunt in China, you magically know more than me, even though I have a subscription to magazines which inform me as to the goings on in China, have a friend who knows quite a bit about Asia, and so on. I'd say that with the little knowledge I do have, I know more than you about this particular subject.

And NASA doesn't have to grant me unfettered access, damnit! NASA's space policy (if you can find one) could lead to Ares Corp for all we know. In fact, it's arguable that the only way to get NASA to go to Luna, is to give most, if not all of the resources to corporations so that the job can actually get done. In which case, Josh Inc will be disallowed access because Luna Corp grows the same kinds of stuff I do and they have a monopoly and so on.

NASA, or the US for that matter, might not be making these same sorts of promises because fankly they want to militarize space, and make it profitable, etc.

And you should know that 99% of China's problems are due to the fact that they took so long to embrace industrialization.

soph · 2003-01-31 15:47:16

forget it. its impossible with to argue with someone who is always right, no matter what the facts say.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 15:54:58

So you disagree that the changes in China are more than just economic? You disagree that decentralization is occuring throughout the nation? You disagree that politicans are becoming more accountable? You disagree that schools are actually teaching democracy?

These are all facts.

At least now we can get back to the subject at hand. And perhaps stop talking about China's societial state simply because I said that I agree with their Space Policy if I thought it was enforcable.

China isn't going to go to Mars if the US pulls the whole JFK style bullcrap, and attempts to spur an Apollo-style mission. It's completely contrary to their Space Policy. We don't even have to argue about the state of ?China's nationalism? to see this.

soph · 2003-01-31 16:00:12

facts because you say they are. they are not facts, get over it. you cant just make something up that supports your argument.

these are not facts. the only fact is the market capitalization. it is ironic that the country is booming as they are becoming more capitalistic, which puts the question to the merits of a socialist economy.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 16:11:54

You should search Google for things like;

china decentralization
and
"village elections" china
and
corruption crackdown china

They're not facts because I say they are, they're facts because there is information out there pertaining to them. Simply because you disagree with them does not make them any less factual. Get over it.

soph · 2003-01-31 16:14:46

i dont know why reporters bother looking for first hand sources, they should just find a friend and a magazine that says so.

but to humor you:

China cracks down on protests

China squashes Tibetan religion

both sources from the new york times online. i could easily get more from a very credible, and arguably even liberal source.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 16:17:02

...what's your point?

We weren't arguing that China is currently a democracy, we were discussing progress in that direction. Don't be silly.

soph · 2003-01-31 16:19:45

dont be silly? you said, quite incorrectly, that children are taught democracy. like i said, maybe in a decade or two it will be democratic, but not now. the government is losing its complete control over 2 billion people, but they are not about to give up their control willingly.

if it was moving that way, why havent we seen another tienamen-esque protest? people are still afraid, and democracy isnt existent. the government is not about to teach what it opposes. perhaps some children learn it by word of mouth from dissenters, but no, they are not taught democracy formally.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 16:25:53

soph, slow down, okay? No one said that Democracy is existant in China. I'm saying that it's an emerging paradigm. A decade is all it takes.

I wasn't incorrect when I stated that children were being taught democracy. Village elections are democratic, children are taught it. Simple as that.

soph · 2003-01-31 16:30:11

You disagree that schools are actually teaching democracy?

village leaders have been elected throughout time. if you want to call this democracy, fine. this went on under the taliban, but i would hardly have called afghanistan democratically moving.

maybe kids are looking at these elections, but they arent taught democracy in school. the government regulates all education and press that they can. they wouldnt allow it.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 16:41:23

I'm not sure about the Taliban statement (I'd be willing to wager it was a lie, since women were so depreciated within the Taliban), but sure, village elections have been going on for quite awhile, but now they are being promoted differently, and structured differently. Due to this promotion, farmers are actually pushing for more democratic control over land.

So, basically, let me ask you this. You're telling me everything I read about Chinese democracy is... is a lie? All of it? Every shred?

soph · 2003-01-31 16:46:11

perhaps village elections exist, but beyond that, democracy is only a reistance movement at this point. i dont know what the extent of what you heard is, but judging on first hand evidence, and evidence gathered from credible media, at this point, china is, beyond a very tiny scale, not democratic, and if it is moving to that point, it is not doing it quickly.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 16:55:14

And your proof of this is where, exactly? And what do you mean, resistance movement? From what I read, the government isn't arresting these people who are voting in their village elections. In fact, as far as I can tell, it's quite encouraged.

soph · 2003-01-31 17:00:45

like i said, if youre talking about village elections, fine. but this is hardly a democracy. this kind of thing was done from the beginnings of traceable human history. to say its a democratic movement is a bit of an overstatement, to say the least.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 17:08:42

What do you think democracy is, soph? Where do you think democracy begins? This isn't a case of ?oh, they've been doing that forever? though. These elections are real, grassroots elections, like you have in any town in the US.

Of course, I still fail to see how this has anything to do with an Apollo-style Mars race with China. Guess I need to learn to not make side comments, knowing that you'll comment even if it's off topic.

soph · 2003-01-31 18:46:46

Well, I just don't see China participating in what we could call a nationalistic race somewhere. China isn't really like that. China has discussed before the importance of long term planning (indeed, you can read this approach in their Space Policy on the CNSA site), and I don't see them looking at Mars and going to Mars with a short term plan in mind; which undoubtedly, a Race to Mars would be, at least without proper space infrastructure existing to begin with, or massive ammounts of money. When China goes to Mars, they'd probably go ala Red Mars. No fancy one man landings for them.
China wants to go to the moon by 2010, and have a base set up within five years of that date. At China's current rate of space growth, such a timeline is fairly foreseeable. What we can pretty much surmise, is that China wouldn't jump on the Race to Mars bandwagon, since Luna is so close, and affords so much from a practical standpoint.

Hmm, I can't say I'm a huge China buff, but I think nationalism isn't one of their things. I'd have to ask my friend to confirm this, though.
I think the real challenge to the United States, is to act rational for once, and let people do as they will without desiring full control. I mean, China could be saying the same stuff about having to stop the US from having a moon hegemony! And in their case it could be a valid argument.
We in the United States have to face it, we can't control everything. We can't be the police for the world, or space, either.
Interestingly, China's space policy has all these nobal goals, about equal access and so on to space; and like it or not, the moon is a pretty big place, so it's not like they'd have reason to deny people or countries access*. I would honestly rather have China get there first and set up a moon base, before the US. Because then at least we could say, if China didn't allow equal access and had this monopoly over moon resources, militarizing everything, ?Hey, your space policies require that you give equal access! You can't go about policing everything!? With the US this isn't the case. US corporations make no promises, and often times it's in their interest to not allow access, since that could prove to ruin profitablity.
Now, if only I could get clark to make a bet with me that we'll return to the moon before we go to Mars.
* I could get in to this, but I'm not talking, ?free? resources or anything like that. I'm just saying, in a nutshell, if you can afford to get there and sustain yourself through whatever means, be it through trading with the other colonies and paying your way, or being autonomous, you get access. Although China does, in their Space Policy, advocate automony and self-reliance above everything else.

yes, short side comments. both were before i even commented. but keep slandering what i say with unrelated comments.

but its useless saying anything to you. you have a set view, and you shell up on any criticism of that view. i havent seen you admit once that you might be wrong. im sorry i dont have your blissful genius. im finished, because intelligent debate is obviously not going to happen.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 20:12:55

I was commenting on something Guest said. About ?Chinese hegemony.? I was basically pointing out that they were wrong, and that Chinese Space Policy inherently destroys possible hegemonies.

The short comment I was referring to, and what this discussion led to, was the bit where I said that, ?I would honestly rather have China get there first and set up a moon base, before the US.? That is what you were responding to. Indeed, this whole discussion has been you trying to depreciate the concept that perhaps China could achieve that.

Honestly, I even tried to get it back on topic by pointing out that nationalism wasn't the central point I was making. So don't pretend to be mister goody two shoes, here. If anyone who has a unchangable set view, it is you, who cannot see obvious signs of democratic progress in China.

And I'm sorry that you don't want to have a honest debate with me. It's not like I'm not open to evidence or anything. In fact, I've asked you to prove your position on several ocassions in this very post.

BTW, yes, I've admitted I was wrong before.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 23:27:34

Yeah, though I tend to think that generally speaking greens don't have that big of an impact (ie, that if NASA or the government really wanted to, they would do it anyway), it is better that NASA does introduce nuclear technology this way. Of course, if at any point their reactors fail (even if no real danger occurs), the greens would probably pounce on the issue, and that could prove problematic. So here's hoping those on the nuclear development team do it right the first time.

China certainly wants Space travel. But I honestly don't think militarism is their primary goal. Obviously they would have initiatives to put up spy satellites and so on, I'm just saying the military aspect is exaggerated. Their space policy is quite aggressive, though, I agree.

The assessment that China may cooperate with Russia in the coming years, with regards to a potential nuclear space program is probably accurate. There's some stuff about Russia and China cooperating throughout 2001 on space related activities, although I can't find direct references. But it seems fairly plausible that Russia would work with China if only to have their name ?stamped on the rocket? if you know what I mean.

But I was thinking, the US could potentially be behind China if they were going to go for reactor technology from the get go using Russian designs. Is this a true overestimation?

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 2003-01-31 14:40:03

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#27 2003-01-31 15:10:17

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#28 2003-01-31 15:17:37

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#29 2003-01-31 15:43:36

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#30 2003-01-31 15:47:16

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#31 2003-01-31 15:54:58

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#32 2003-01-31 16:00:12

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#33 2003-01-31 16:11:54

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#34 2003-01-31 16:14:46

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#35 2003-01-31 16:17:02

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#36 2003-01-31 16:19:45

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#37 2003-01-31 16:25:53

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#38 2003-01-31 16:30:11

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#39 2003-01-31 16:41:23

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#40 2003-01-31 16:46:11

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#41 2003-01-31 16:55:14

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#42 2003-01-31 17:00:45

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#43 2003-01-31 17:08:42

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#44 2003-01-31 18:46:46

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#45 2003-01-31 20:12:55

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

#46 2003-01-31 23:27:34

Re: A Nuclear Space Race Between America And China. - A new Apollo?

Board footer