Languages - Parlo Italiano - What langauge should be the Official?

KaseiII · 2003-01-24 14:46:20

I was just curious what people thought should be the Official Language on Mars. If the, no offence, Americans get there way we'll all be speaking English. But English is a very poor language with very little structure.
So shouldn't Mars have the perfect language? I say Yes.
And the language I came up with is Italian. Italian is simple to learn for most people in the G7 nations. Also it has a good few grammar rules, not to may though, and are kept to 99% of the time, unlike English. Also it is the closest modern Language to Latin, which most Martian Nomenculture is in. But the reason Latin would not be suitable would be it is missing to many words needed in the modern World. Correct?
Tell me what you think? Is there another language you think is Best (more perfect so please no one who says everyone should speak English, cause most already do....loads speak Spanish and that is just as bad as English).
btw I am not Italian.

Also, Italian is only spoken by 80 million people so it will put (more-or-less) everyone in the same boat - everyone will be on level pegging, no one will have language advantage in either way;
a) by not having to learn a language
b) or by having a second, private language.

Everyone will have a new language and an old.
This would be best right?

Also, anyone know any Italian Names for Martian Nomenculture...I am curious.]
???

Palomar · 2003-01-24 15:39:14

K: "I was just curious what people thought should be the Official Language on Mars. If the, no offence, Americans get there way we'll all be speaking English."

*And if the Russians get there first, establish the settlements, are funding their own bases, spacecraft, etc., then the predominant language on Mars will be Russian (you know, if they get their way -- no offense).

K: But English is a very poor language with very little structure.

*In all fairness, German as the official language of the U.S. was voted down in favor of English by only -1- vote.

K: So shouldn't Mars have the perfect language? I say Yes. And the language I came up with is Italian.

*The official language of Mars can't be projected at this early a date...if there will even be an official language. Hopefully we'll get enough nations able to go to Mars that it'll be a mix of languages, cultures, etc., there as well.

It seems logical to presume that whichever nation is predominantly present on Mars will have the predominant language. Can we expect Russian settlers (supposing they are predominant on Mars, i.e. first there, first settlements, most settlements, etc.) to want to communicate with Moscow in Italian? I doubt it.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2003-01-24 16:47:09

And I'm a U.S. citizen by the way; I know it might be terrifically shocking if I'm not stomping around acting like a stereotype.

That's my cue! One for an English speaking Mars.

Seriously though, despite the lack of consistency and the generally messed-up usage of the language, English is very good at expressing complex and very specific ideas fairly efficiently. English has so many words that mean almost, but not quite, the same thing. The subtle shades of meaning possible make up for the haphazard rules, at least to me. German is also good in this respect, but it can be rather ungainly.

But if we want a "perfect" language, as in "consistent and easy to learn", how about Esperanto. Everyone would have to learn a new language then. just anything but French!

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-24 18:29:37

Tee hee. lojban is better.

I've been learning some lojban along with Cherokee with my brother (when Ihave time at least), it's fun.

But to get more on topic. I don't think there will be an ?offical language.? Translators are improving quite well, and I think that a population on Mars will use them to communicate with each other. At first you will probably have colonies with only one offical language; they may not even allow non-<insert their language here> speakers inside! But as to a Martian-wide language, I don't see there being an offical one. We'll have translations of every offical document in every language. At least, this is how I feel, I could be wrong. I see Mars as a sort of Babylon 5, where all the different people from the world can gather without being met with silly things like language barriers...

And one more thing, about English. It's very poetic. I'm glad I know it. Redundancies aside.

Palomar · 2003-01-24 20:04:04

just anything but French!

Ah, Monsieur, Fran?ais est la langue de mon Voltaire aim?. Comment n'appr?ciez-vous pas le fran?ais? C'est ?galement la langue de roman. Je vote pour le Fran?ais, oui.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2003-01-24 20:40:34

Ah, Monsieur, Fran?ais est la langue de mon Voltaire aim?. Comment n'appr?ciez-vous pas le fran?ais? C'est ?galement la langue de roman. Je vote pour le Fran?ais, oui.
--Cindy

Surely a stereotypical American such as myself, stomping about and proclaiming how the world should be, can't be expected to appreciate Voltaire in the original French; I need everything in English translations to accomodate my arrogant unilateralist mindset.

Besides, I like a language in which I can sound threatening if I choose. French makes it really hard...

soph · 2003-01-24 21:13:18

If I had to choose a non-english language, it would be spanish. however, i would really go with english.

italian, french, and spanish dont do a good job of, like others have said, expressing subtle differences in emotion. for example, i can use hundreds of different words to describe how well im feeling (very well, extremely well, fantastic, amazingly well, etc.) whereas in spanish, i only have a few dozen. The other two are very similar to spanish.

i also like english, american english anyway, because it is a conglomeration of other languages. german is icky, even though i speak some myself, because of german grandparents (i intend to learn more over the summer). i would say we should reform a bit with english though (through? i prefer thru).

If you want to go by a majority language, chinese (mandarin i believe) is the pick. but i wouldnt do that. american english is the way to go, imho, at least simply because the main space launch center of the world is american.

language is a tough thing. on one hand, you want everyone to speak the same language for obvious reasons. on the other, you want diverse cultures, and individual identities. its a very difficult conundrum.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-24 22:56:17

So, how do we go about enforcing this... official language? For it to be an official language, it would basically be the language all government officials, and so on, speak. All documents would be written in it, and so on. So basically, how do we make colonies speak it? What about prodominately Chinese colonies? Prodominately German, and so on?

Assuming we do have a central language, for official documents and so on, such a language would merely exist for intermediate purposes; so that 1) translation is easier and 2) learning is easier. Such a language would be made of simple constructs which are easy to expand, English or practically any of the Germanic languages, does not qualify. I suspect if we were to have such a language, it would be Korean or the like. Although I have a problem with glyphs instead of alphabetical languages. They're similar (as they're both built of simple constructs; alphabets being characters and glyphs being angles, both which build full words), but glyphs are much more susceptible to ?misspellings.? If one angle is off, you're screwed. However, with an alphabetical language, you can derive the meaning with very few letters (mst wrds cn b drvd wtht thr vwls!).

Personally, I think that ?offical languages? shouldn't necessarily express emotion very well. Who cares about emotion in official documents? And I think that official languages should be easy to pronounce, with a very clear grammar so that accents don't destroy the meaning of words (many people in China cannot understand each other because of mere accents).

Cobra Commander · 2003-01-24 23:11:23

So basically, how do we make colonies speak it? What about prodominately Chinese colonies? Prodominately German, and so on?

Well, we could threaten to shut off their air if they don't comply. Where are you, Clark?

I suspect if we were to have such a language, it would be Korean or the like. Although I have a problem with glyphs instead of alphabetical languages. They're similar (as they're both built of simple constructs; alphabets being characters and glyphs being angles, both which build full words), but glyphs are much more susceptible to ?misspellings.? If one angle is off, you're screwed. However, with an alphabetical language, you can derive the meaning with very few letters

Actually, in the case of Korean, it is a phoenetic language. Each glyph represents a sound rather than a concept, so it could be used with the Latin alphabet, or any other that was desired.

Personally, I think that ?offical languages? shouldn't necessarily express emotion very well. Who cares about emotion in official documents? And I think that official languages should be easy to pronounce, with a very clear grammar so that accents don't destroy the meaning of words

An artificial language like Esperanto is perfect. It has very simple rules, lacks the wide vocabulary needed for casual use, and thus can't realistically be forced on anyone over their native tongues. If there must be an "official" language, this might be the way to go. But it's a pain in the ass, so I still opt for English. If we Americans get off our butts and get on with a Mars mission, we'll have de facto official English simply through dominance.

KaseiII · 2003-01-25 06:44:44

I am English (from England, the land most Americans originally came from) and I hate the English language. I would opt for anything but English. So many nations (not just the Americans, but most countries which speak english, plus parts of the UK, like Birmingham) have butchered, ruined, changed, mixed up the english langauge.
I would go for French, but that language is almost as messed up as English. Same with german. Japanese is a language I love, but would be to complicated for most western Europeans to learn, same with Russian which I also love.
Spanish is just plain confusing (And no-one in the G7 speaks it).
So Italian was my choice, english to learn, good grammar rules, almost modern latin so most Nomenculture doesn't need to be changed, plus it sounds really nice.

And someone said Americans will get to Mars first, frankly i doubt it will be a nation which gets to Mars, it will probably be a Privately funded mission, or an International one, or one funded equally by the G7 + Russia (i'd prefer that one).

But I think Italian would be the perfect language for Mars. Italian, then Japanese, then French which is a beautiul language, if a bit mixed up.

I never thought so many people would reply to this.

soph · 2003-01-25 06:55:26

G7? Which nations are those?

But I really don't see the Russians funding anything equally. The Russians bailed on most of their ISS funding...I think it will either be a privately funded mission or a US mission (or an "International" mission funded moslty by the US, kinda like the ISS).

Palomar · 2003-01-25 07:16:33

I am English (from England, the land most Americans originally came from) and I hate the English language.

*No, most white Americans -DON'T- originally come from England. I don't know where you got such a mistaken idea; I wonder how many other mistaken ideas you have about the U.S.

Your statement would have been true in the time period of 1600 to perhaps 1800...but certainly not afterwards! Most people in the sizeable Midwestern section of the U.S. alone trace their ancestry to continental Europe (Germany, Denmark, Norway, Czech, France, etc.).

One issue we have in my region of the U.S.A. is the Hispanic/Latino misconception that English is "the white man's language." That couldn't be further from the truth, as anyone with even a passing familiarity with the variety of languages in Europe knows. My father's family were all from the former Czechoslovakia (now Czech Republic and Slovakia). My father spoke Czech at home [he was born in the U.S., but both parents were from the old country, and didn't speak much English], until attending public school in a small Iowa town at age 5 -- then he had to learn English. Most white people in the U.S. do -not- have English ancestors.

And Cobra Commander, I wasn't quoting Voltaire in French. You can read what I wrote (if you're even interested) at www.world.altavista.com/tr (use the translation feature). Also, I didn't call you a stereotypical American...I simply said I'm not one.

--Cindy

KaseiII · 2003-01-25 10:11:06

Ok. When I said originally...i meant the first people who colonised America were from the UK, right? I Did not mean EVERY AMERICAN.

Cobra Commander · 2003-01-26 13:48:48

And Cobra Commander, I wasn't quoting Voltaire in French.

I know. I was speaking generally in reference to the Voltaire comment, in the sense that as a stereotypical American (a self deprecating joke on my part), I wouldn't read anything that wasn't in English. Not so much out of the "arrogant American" attitude I play up but just because my command of other languages is extremely lacking.

No offense intended with the French bashing.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 00:31:07

Lojban is also phonetic, and does have some roots within Korean. Actually, many argue that it has roots within all languages, on some level or another.

I like Lojban for two reasons, first, the grammar is very simple (simpler than Esperanto, in fact). And second, because it actually looks nice. One would be surprised how nice a language without punctuation or capitalization looks.

One thing a linguist pointed out about Esperanto, is that the language only has about as many speakers as Icelandic. So technically speaking, it's not as popular as one would claim. Another issue, I take at least, with Esperanto, is that it really is too European for my taste. Lojban tries to be language netural, and I think it succeeds pretty well. I think we want language neutrality for an international language. Another plus for Lojban, is that it is easily parsed by computers, it's not inconcievable that Lojban could stand as a transitionary language for machines to translate things. Lojban allows you to say the same thing a dozen different ways, but once said, has no ambiguities. Each different way of saying something has the same meaning. So you could write English Lojban, Chinese Lojban, and so on. There's a cool example of it on the Lojban links page.

Palomar · 2003-01-31 11:43:49

Lojban is also phonetic, and does have some roots within Korean.

*I have never heard of "Lojban." Are you pulling our legs, Josh Cryer?

--Cindy

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-31 13:01:30

No ma'am.

www.lojban.org

I would write something in Lojban, but I am afraid that I would fail miserably. Kind of the same reason I won't publicly release my source code for software I've written. I'm afraid it has too many errors.

BTW, when I said it was simpler than Esperento, I meant that the grammar itself was smaller, other than that, it's probably actually harder to learn, especially for native English speakers.

HariSeldon · 2003-02-02 03:11:58

Hello everyone...I'm a serious oldtimer here and I've been gone for a long time. I was in the Civ-Culture group for 2 years, and that was two years ago. I figured it was time to get back to flexing my brain. So here goes...

Assuming you were to have an "official language" on Mars (that is debatable by itself, and there have already been some good posts on that point) you would have to pick a language based on just a couple categories.

1) Is it a practical choice? (This has 2 components)
a) Is the language already conveniently established?
b) Is the language capable of supporting technical communication?
2) What political impact will the choice have?

Clearly you would not pick a language that is not already widely in use. Starting everybody off in the same boat may seem like a fair idea, but its a very poor idea. If you have no native speakers the initial transition will be ugly, very ugly. The initial difficulties will probably create long term deficiencies in the general language skills of the community, resulting in half-hearted adoption of the "official language" and a maintenance of native tongues. And this is only one of probably fifty reasons to picked a pre-established language.

The more important practical selection criteria is to pick a language that supports technical communication. At least at first Mars will be a scientific place. A population of scientists engaged in scientific undertakings. To that end you need a language that already has a rich technical lexicon. It must also be a language that lends itself to quick adoption of new words and meanings. For this purpose we must immediately reject all the romance languages. Being a 6 year student of latin myself (I minored in Classics and Classical history in college) I can atest to the general charge among linguists that the Romance languages are woefully inadequate at adding technical terms. They are all superior languages for commerce. And by extension, diplomacy, but Latin, French, Italian, Spanish, and Portugese are all failures on this critical second point. They also presents difiiculties in transmitting very precise information (although that is splitting hairs).

Of the major languages that are thus left, the most technical languages are Germanic. Basically German and English. Between the two the more logical selection is English. The reason being that English has proved to be better at borrowing romance language vocabulary, lending itself to international diplomacy and commercial transaction more than German.

The final practical consideration for adopting an official language relates to the expressed concern that English is diificult to learn. I had a linguistics professor in college dispute that notion as ridiculous on its face, but I would refute it on more logical grounds. In all likelihood the initial colonists will all be Western or Russian by extraction. This group of people have had extensive exposure to English as a secondary language. By some recent estimates as many as 80% of college eduacated Europeans speak English at the 'semi-fluent' level. A large percentage of Japanese also. One can only imagine the trend that must be taking place in the Russian space agency, given the new interaction with NASA.

Thus your initial population will have a fairly sophisticated level of English at its disposal, as opposed to any other language. This has a direct bearing on the last qualifying point, English should be more politically acceptable because the initial population will already speak the language.

People generally don't hate a language they already speak. They may not love it, but it is politically acceptable nonetheless.

Remember also that the following colonists will not be average citizens. For a prolonged period the only colonists will be educated people with necessary technical skills. These people will have mostly the same exposure to English in their primary education as the original colonists, and they will find it convenient to have mastered it before they travel to Mars because English would guarantee they could speak to almost any community, regardless of what that community's primary tongue may be.

Convenience breeds comfort. And comfort breeds acceptance. Politically, therefore, English would be an optimal choice as an official language.

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-02 04:31:01

Welcome aboard HariSeldon, I hope you become a regular.

Personally, I don't think we ought to have a mandated language, like I said before. But your premise is fairly good.

The question I want to know, though, is what is the purpose of an offical language? All offical documents are to be written on it and so on? All signs, currency and so on?

English isn't practical for the billions of Chinese people to learn, and it's arguable that they would have as much if not more of a presence on Mars as Russians or Americans.

I think the logic that an offical language be small and unambiguous doesn't go against the points you are making (you can be perfectly technical in a constructed language). The only point I may disagree with is the bit about establishment... Chinese is very well established in the world, this does not make it practical (with some 300k symbols to learn, it's a freaking nightmare).

I'm more of a person who doesn't care one way or the other about offical languages, but if you make one, make it so that it acts as a representative to all the other languages.

KaseiII · 2003-02-02 05:33:25

Ok - Lojban and Esperanto may sound good because they are neutral - but since they have never been spoken naturally, most of the needed vocabulary won't exist, will it?

Also, English may be technical, but it is confusing, it may be easy to write, but hell to pronounce, unlike romance languages (excluding Spanish) where each letter has a sound which is always used. In English we have five sounds for "a" and "e", four for (there is a problem, words sounding too much alike) "i", and two for "o", "u" and "y".

I still hold we need an official language on Mars, because if each settlement speaks a seperate language, they are unlikely to join in a global government. Langauge and Religion are the biggest divides, so let's at least only use one language (use as many religions as you want, but NO state religion or Official Religion, people should have freedom to worship).

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-02 06:45:22

Well, Lojban and Esperanto are complete languages. Esperanto may have issues with a lacking vocabulary, but in Lojban most of the necessary vocabulary exists via simple word building rules. Once you know the 1300 root words, you can make millions of words. In fact, it's been argued that you could convey any meaning (even things which don't exist yet) through the description words.

There is an issue in Lojban circles about ?how? Lojban should be spoken (grammar-wise). The grammar is logical, so you could have many ?styles? which convey the same meaning. But I think this is actually a good thing, because no matter what language you speak, the message you wish to convey is translated without any issues.

Take the following quote from a page on the Lojban webring:

In Lojban, there are so many ways to say the same things. Its rules allow you to shape the sentences into the patterns of other languages, or to say things in completely new ways. For instance, take the sentence "I was bit by a dog":

English style:
mi pu se batci lo gerku
I was bit by a dog

Spanish style:
pu se batci lo gerku
Was bit by a dog

German style:
mi lo gerku ba'o se batci
I have, by a dog, been bit

Chinese style:
batci gerku
Bite dog

Turkish style:
fe lo gerku pu selbatci fa mi
By a dog bit was I

Invented example (Yoda-speak?):
pu batci mi fa lo gerku
Bit me have a dog

As you can see, it's quite flexible, and makes for a very good transitional language. This actually shows why offical languages shouldn't be complex. We want to be able to cover a large a base as possible.

English is an abomination many would say, and I would tend to agree for the most part. I don't care if linguists say that it's not hard to learn, I know dang well I wouldn't want to learn it.

KaseiII, could you explain what an offical language is, though? It's kind of weird that you would say that people should be able to have their own religion, but imply that everyone needs to use the same language.

KaseiII · 2003-02-02 07:43:01

Well, by official Language, I mean the "State" Language. The one which everyone learns, and would be globally acceptable. So, if it was a global government were used, only one language would be used, you would not need a fleet of translators.

But it doesn't mean you can't speak a native tongue in private. For example, in Mauritus, English is the Language taught in schools, but about 50% of Mauritians speak French at home.

I propose we have a language which acts like English, which everyone is able to use and understand, and would be the language used in every day public life, but everyone has the right to speak their "Franch" or Private langauge at home.

I just think one official language would be easier for a more global, rather than national, community.

soph · 2003-02-02 10:27:29

agreed, we need an administrative language, and one that ties people together. we can see the obvious problems with linguistic differences by going to china and trying to have a conversation with someone who doesnt speak english.

what should it be? I dont know, but i would support english, primarily because its the language of the worlds major space program. however, i can see its difficulties.

perhaps a revamped english with more appropriate spellings for sounds (ex thru instead of through) would be a good idea. it could be done too, i think.

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-02 11:58:57

Well, a mandated language is no different from a mandated religion, I think... The reason we say that everyone ought to have their own form of religion, is to say that no religion is superior to another, yet clearly we'd be proping up the superiority of one language over all others were we to officiate a language.

I agree with the premise, but on the surface, it's too discriminatory for my taste. There are other better solutions which wouldn't require knowledge of a state language at all. Universal translators and the like.

I actually expect Lojban to take over as an international language eventually, since it has the expressiveness of English, with less the complexity of Esperento. Just give it time, it's not even 20 years old yet...

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-02 13:20:26

Actually, since its baseline was '93, it's only 10 years old. And it's only been in real use for perhaps 5 years, with already hundreds of people who know it...

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Re: Languages - Parlo Italiano - What langauge should be the Official?

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