Russia+Europe sign deal to build six seater Lunar Craft! :D

Gregori · 2008-05-18 15:04:58

If not for the Europeans lack of experience with space capsule technology, they could probably beat NASA to making an Ares-I/Orion style launch system.
Doubtful. It's that lack of experience and the enormous cost of acquiring it that makes using Russian technology so attractive. Even with Russian technology this unconfirmed article (still no press release from ESA BTW) says first flight in 2018.

2018 is not such a bad target date. If they hit it, a Moon mission could follow rather close to the US's own planned return. The more there, the merrier.

Congress in the US has made a demand that the Moon Base must not require to be continously occupied like ISS. Perhaps ESA and RSK could pitch in a hand at supplying and keeping the base occupied!!!

I just hope nobody reneges on there support for this project. Europe really needs a manned launch capability.

cIclops · 2008-05-18 16:50:06

Orion/Ares I first flight is planned for 2013, so they'll have to work a lot faster.

ESA/RKA are not planning a Moon landing, this craft would probably only be capable of lunar flyby, maybe not even orbit unless they develop a new booster. ESA are talking about providing a robotic lunar lander or maybe a pressurized rover - see Armstrong Outpost - status.

Grypd · 2008-05-19 04:26:31

Orion I/Ares first flight is planned for 2013, so they'll have to work a lot faster.
ESA/RKA are not planning a Moon landing, this craft would probably only be capable of lunar flyby, maybe not even orbit unless they develop a new booster. ESA are talking about providing a robotic lunar lander or maybe a pressurized rover - see Armstrong Outpost - status.

ESA is gaining experience in orbit rendevouz and similar operations. There are plans to turn the ATV into a light spacestation. This would be done by docking two or three together. And a new booster does not really need to be created as they could well use the principal of in orbit refueling and send a lighter spacecraft into space.

Still I suspect that ESA is looking at NASA and wondering if they will be able to keep to there timetable as I am. It seems that ESA is considering the ability to send its own astronauts to space as a means to strengthen there political hand and that any American drive for the Moon will then take them on as significant partners.

ESA planned for the Columbus module of the ISS to be significantly larger and to have its own power and maneuvering systems. This though was vetoed by NASA as it did not want the Shuttle to appear irrelevant in supplying modules to the ISS. The result was that the Hiatus after the shuttle accidents seriously impacted the timeframe and ESA had a built module and a series of supply craft mostly ready that where not needed for quite a while.

It is in this context that ESA will look as to how it will aproach becoming a partner to return to the Moon and ESA has to also look at just how much support NASA really has to be able to achieve its stated goals.

neviden · 2008-05-19 09:44:14

This story with Europe's manned spaceship is a bit more complicated. There appear to be two competing proposals.

1) "CSTS/ACTS" one that is worked with the Russians as part of the Soyuz upgrade/replacement. It appears that would look like Orion with size of 18-20 mT and 6 crews. That would be launched on Russian rockets from Russia.

2) "ATV evolution with Viking capsule" one, that is still kind of short on details, but it would seem to be 9 mT ship for 3 crews that would be made from ATV propulsion module + 3,3m Viking capsule launched on top of Ariane 5. Being only 9 mT heavy would mean that it could be launched directly to HEO or Moon orbit by upgraded Ariane 5 (ECB).

First one is classic copy of Orion that could go to the moon with extra EDS launched with another rocket.

Second one looks like very interesting to me, since it would use Ariane’s strength (cryogenic upper stage) to compensate for the higher cost of a rocket (compared to Soyuz). Having direct manned access to HEO would allow Europe to meaningfully participate in any manned mission beyond LEO. And since neither Europeans nor the Russians seem likely to build HLV anytime soon, that puts them into position where they have to be more innovative in what kind of approach can they use. SEP/NEP assembled in LEO from 25 mT pieces, spiraled to HEO where the crew from Earth would board it would be one such approach. Having fast, relatively cheap (1 Ariane 5) and simple (no LEO dockings) manned access to HEO would make that kind of thing much more realistic and doable.

We will see what they will decide in November. I personally (if it could actually get to HEO by itself) very much like the second one. It’s basically cheap version of Ares IV that is designed for the Moon, but can also go to ISS.

cIclops · 2008-05-19 12:11:15

Why put crew in HEO? Crew would be outside the protection of the radiation belts. These orbits are designed for comm sats.

neviden · 2008-05-19 15:03:43

HEO as in High Earth Orbit, above Van Allen belts somewhere in the vicinity of Moon and at the edge of Earth's gravitational pull (delta-v wise).

You would not want to go anywhere far in small cramped capsule, but you could dock there to a bigger ship that would bring you either to the Moon or take you further on solar orbit around the sun (Mars).

GCNRevenger · 2008-05-21 12:24:26

T"ATV evolution with Viking capsule" one, that is still kind of short on details, but it would seem to be 9 mT ship for 3 crews that would be made from ATV propulsion module + 3,3m Viking capsule launched on top of Ariane 5. Being only 9 mT heavy would mean that it could be launched directly to HEO or Moon orbit by upgraded Ariane 5 (ECB).
First one is classic copy of Orion that could go to the moon with extra EDS launched with another rocket.
Second one looks like very interesting to me, since it would use Ariane’s strength (cryogenic upper stage) to compensate for the higher cost of a rocket (compared to Soyuz). Having direct manned access to HEO would allow Europe to meaningfully participate in any manned mission beyond LEO. And since neither Europeans nor the Russians seem likely to build HLV anytime soon, that puts them into position where they have to be more innovative in what kind of approach can they use. SEP/NEP assembled in LEO from 25 mT pieces, spiraled to HEO where the crew from Earth would board it would be one such approach. Having fast, relatively cheap (1 Ariane 5) and simple (no LEO dockings) manned access to HEO would make that kind of thing much more realistic and doable.

Or maybe the Europeans will need all the extra payload of the Ariane-V for the escape tower and extra structural strengthening required for man-rating and whatnot.

RedStreak · 2008-05-23 00:28:53

Why put crew in HEO? Crew would be outside the protection of the radiation belts. These orbits are designed for comm sats.

Better view at the least for Earth Observation but if we take the Hubble analogy we could be taking more subtantial and long-lived platforms in the highly valulable geostationaly orbit. Less time in Earth's shadow too which has its boon for solar power.

LEO is handy for spy satellites and polar-orbiting mapping satellites ala Landsat, but I think it has become overrated and overused for manned missions. The loss of Columbia has proved that, at the least, if we use men and women we should use them in something substantial, and within the Earth-Moon systems geostationary orbit is first high-ranking orbit before the Lagrange points and the Moon itself.

RedStreak · 2008-05-23 00:37:02

As for Russia & ESA's possible partnership...well between the both of them I would hope they'd have enough know-how to create at the least a second-generation Soyuz akin to Orion.

Klipper looked like it had potential; the only real doubt is Russia's budget or ESA's dedication.

cIclops · 2008-05-23 01:36:36

Apollo-like capsule chosen for Crew Space Transportation System - 22 May 2008

By Rob Coppinger
In a departure from previous spherical Russian capsule designs, a conical manned capsule with a service module has been selected for the European Space Agency and Russia's Federal Space Agency (FSA) joint programme Crew Space Transportation System (CSTS).
With a maiden test flight expected in 2015 and the first manned mission scheduled for 2018, both from Russia's planned Vostochny spaceport, the CSTS would carry six astronauts to low-Earth orbit or four to the Moon like NASA's Orion crew exploration vehicle, the design is a conical capsule and service module.
Under the agreement reached on 15 April by ESA and FSA, both organisations will engage in joint systems engineering tasks while ESA's industrial consortium will develop the service module and Russia's Rocket and Space Corporation Energia will be the capsule's prime contractor and oversee service module-capsule integration. The service module will be derived from ESA's International Space Station cargo spacecraft, the Automated Transfer Vehicle.
The FSA describes the CSTS launcher as having a baseline payload capability of 18,000kg (39,600lb). However, the capsule and service module combined mass may not be that much, says Manuel Valls, ESA's CSTS programme manager and head of policy for the agency's human spaceflight, microgravity and exploration directorate. He told Flight International: "The Russian rocket is not part of the co-operation agreement."
Valls says the CSTS will be designed to be compatible with Russia's and ESA's spaceports and he does not rule out, in the long term, the vehicle being launched on a man-rated EADS Astrium Ariane 5. Despite rumours of a cargo variant CSTS, Valls says there is only a crew version for the time being.
An intermediate system concept for the crewed CSTS will be discussed by ESA and the FSA in June and a technical and programmatic report will be finalised in October. The agency's leadership will present to its ministerial November conference the report's proposal for the member states to fund the development of the ATV-derived service module and related activities for its integration with the capsule and launcher.

What will all the Orion bashing Soyuz lovers have to say now?

Gregori · 2008-05-23 07:54:43

Apollo-like capsule chosen for Crew Space Transportation System - 22 May 2008
By Rob Coppinger
In a departure from previous spherical Russian capsule designs, a conical manned capsule with a service module has been selected for the European Space Agency and Russia's Federal Space Agency (FSA) joint programme Crew Space Transportation System (CSTS).
With a maiden test flight expected in 2015 and the first manned mission scheduled for 2018, both from Russia's planned Vostochny spaceport, the CSTS would carry six astronauts to low-Earth orbit or four to the Moon like NASA's Orion crew exploration vehicle, the design is a conical capsule and service module.
Under the agreement reached on 15 April by ESA and FSA, both organisations will engage in joint systems engineering tasks while ESA's industrial consortium will develop the service module and Russia's Rocket and Space Corporation Energia will be the capsule's prime contractor and oversee service module-capsule integration. The service module will be derived from ESA's International Space Station cargo spacecraft, the Automated Transfer Vehicle.
The FSA describes the CSTS launcher as having a baseline payload capability of 18,000kg (39,600lb). However, the capsule and service module combined mass may not be that much, says Manuel Valls, ESA's CSTS programme manager and head of policy for the agency's human spaceflight, microgravity and exploration directorate. He told Flight International: "The Russian rocket is not part of the co-operation agreement."
Valls says the CSTS will be designed to be compatible with Russia's and ESA's spaceports and he does not rule out, in the long term, the vehicle being launched on a man-rated EADS Astrium Ariane 5. Despite rumours of a cargo variant CSTS, Valls says there is only a crew version for the time being.
An intermediate system concept for the crewed CSTS will be discussed by ESA and the FSA in June and a technical and programmatic report will be finalised in October. The agency's leadership will present to its ministerial November conference the report's proposal for the member states to fund the development of the ATV-derived service module and related activities for its integration with the capsule and launcher.
What will all the Orion bashing Soyuz lovers have to say now?

Well, I would say - grow up!! Thats just so silly. I hope you're not being serious! I don't really care who does space exploration once somebody does it!

The bottom line is that both NASA and RSK/ESA are embracing the older way of doing manned space exploration, helping us all break out of LEO.
Orion is making use of experience gained from the Shuttle and Apollo. CSTS is building on expertise gained from both ATV and Soyuz. The shuttle turned into a very bad dead end for manned space flight.

This is good news for space exploration and will hopefully contribute to habitation of Moon, Asteroids and Mars and getting us off the planet. Thats exciting!!!

Rune · 2008-05-23 08:36:11

Klipper looked like it had potential; the only real doubt is Russia's budget or ESA's dedication.

Amen to that. I know that I should be excited about my mother country being involved and all that (Go ESA!), but being practically a copy of Orion and the history of lack of interest in space in the EU, I fear that It will just get canceled at the first cost overrun/discussion with the russians. They have the know-how and we've got the euros and a mighty aerospace industry put togheter, but somehow I don't belive the will is there. We'll end up piggy-backing on the american program, as always, wich is not necessarily a bad thing.

Rune. A minute of silence for all the wasted programs.

cIclops · 2008-05-23 10:21:38

There's been so much bashing here of NASA's Orion capsule as old tech and equally ignorant adoration of the perfect Soyuz system, it's reassuring to see that RKA/ESA agree with NASA's approach. It's also good to see that there will be another system available for reaching cis lunar space.

Both RKA and ESA as well as JAXA and CSA are collaborating with NASA on the human lunar exploration program, the synergy will be of benefit to everyone. The lunar program has the potential to excite even the sleepy old Europeans :>

Gregori · 2008-05-23 11:22:36

There's been so much bashing here of NASA's Orion capsule as old tech and equally ignorant adoration of the perfect Soyuz system, it's reassuring to see that RKA/ESA agree with NASA's approach. It's also good to see that there will be another system available for reaching cis lunar space.
Both RKA and ESA as well as JAXA and CSA are collaborating with NASA on the human lunar exploration program, the synergy will be of benefit to everyone. The lunar program has the potential to excite even the sleepy old Europeans :>

No there hasn't.

I certainly gave the Orion Capsule no abuse. I criticized the shuttle. Russia deserves its due credit for creating a reliable space vehicle thats has had the longest history in manned spaceflight

All in all, both sides have chosen a pretty practical method to get to the Moon, building upon their respective technologies and experience.

This rightly means great things for Manned Lunar Exploration!!! I'm totally psyched!!

naitsabes · 2008-05-28 03:29:32

it doens't mention Russians but http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7419793.stm

cIclops · 2008-05-28 04:10:17

Note in the article:

Astrium itself is part of a separate Esa-funded study that is looking at the possibility of developing a crew capability in tandem with the Russians.

It's not a done deal.

SpaceNut · 2008-05-28 06:32:31

Why should the ESA even do anything with Russia when it can go it on its own with the further developement of its current launch platform used in the ATV.

A model of a proposed European manned spaceship has gone on show at the Berlin Air Show.

cIclops · 2008-05-28 09:07:40

Two reasons:

1. ESA hasn't got the technology or even enough funding

2. Because the ATV would need a complete redesign, it would be better to start again.

Rune · 2008-05-28 15:10:39

2. Because the ATV would need a complete redesign, it would be better to start again.

Not so mucho for LEO missions... Just exchange the cargo section with a crewed one (you can still use the same guidance system) and additional sensors for the Arianne. The development cost would be nothing like that of a new whole vehicle. It would be nuts to deny russian assistance (or american, for that matter) in any space program, though.

Still, given that the americans are pulling off the plug on the ISS so soon after completion, a vehicle like this would be useful to keep it up there through its intended life.

Rune. It's not the best ideas that get done, it's the possible ones.

cIclops · 2008-05-28 15:36:34

ATV has no reentry capability - that problem alone will require a massive redesign. Yes, much of the technology can be reused and it's a good basis for developing a new human spacecraft. The Russians aren't offering "assistance" they want ESA to help pay for their own program. It's a cheap way for ESA to get themselves a human spacecraft but not the best way. ESA should get serious about space, its budget is a small fraction of NASA's from a combined GDP about the same as the US.

The Americans are not pulling the plug on ISS, the recent 2008 NASA authorization act requires ISS to be extended to 2020.

Rune · 2008-05-28 16:45:58

I was thinkink a soyuz-like configuration, so just the capsule section would need to reenter, and since you are designing it from scratch anyway... Anyhow, I know the Russian are just after easy euros for a dying space program, but I trust (well, more or less) that our politicians will get our fair share of any deal. If anything, we europeans are good at annoying people into accepting stuff for money.

Anyhow, I still agree with you in that ESA should get serious and start spending good money on space. After all, it would mean more work openings for me! I am all too eager to see anything that speeds the process of getting out there.

And you guys are going to see the ISS to the end of its operational life in the end? Good for you! I didn't knew about it...

Rune. Go ESA! (Wherever the changing whims of our politicians may lead you)

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Re: Russia+Europe sign deal to build six seater Lunar Craft! :D

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#36 2008-05-23 07:54:43

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