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Well here's a small piece of evidence from yesterday - now where's the evidence to show that the Iraqi government and coalition strategy is not working?
This is the only decent plan, there really isn't other other except surrender unless you have some magical way of stopping determined suicide bombers and killers?
The fighting shifted to another area of Baghdad and these are militias...
The evidence that the 'strategy' isn't working is evidenced by the fact that Iraq is land of wreck and ruin and that the occupation has resulted in massive increase of terrorism within Iraq. The Iraqi goverment can't even maintain control and order over a single city in Iraq, never mind the country.
Bombings and murders practically everyday aren't a very good sign of a working strategy. It doesn't really require references to point that out, there are just too many!
If these events were occuring in a US city, I doubt many of the public would be saying that the strategy is 'working'.
Iraq didn't have these problems (and on this scale) before the invasion. Yeah Saddam was an evil murderous tyrant, but this invasion has just created more death, destruction and mayhem. It also has drawn the likes of AQ toward the country,making it a breeding ground for terrorism and fanaticism!
Creating the condtions for more terrorism is usually a bad way of fighting it.
The US and its western allies need to pay massive reparations for destroying major parts of Iraq and years of genocidal sanctions.
It then needs to withdraw the entire army and leave it up to Iraqi's to determing their own countries fate.
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The fighting shifted to another area of Baghdad and these are militias...
The evidence that the 'strategy' isn't working is evidenced by the fact that Iraq is land of wreck and ruin and that the occupation has resulted in massive increase of terrorism within Iraq. The Iraqi goverment can't even maintain control and order over a single city in Iraq, never mind the country.
Bombings and murders practically everyday aren't a very good sign of a working strategy. It doesn't really require references to point that out, there are just too many!
If these events were occuring in a US city, I doubt many of the public would be saying that the strategy is 'working'.
Iraq didn't have these problems (and on this scale) before the invasion. Yeah Saddam was an evil murderous tyrant, but this invasion has just created more death, destruction and mayhem. It also has drawn the likes of AQ toward the country,making it a breeding ground for terrorism and fanaticism!
Creating the condtions for more terrorism is usually a bad way of fighting it.
The US and its western allies need to pay massive reparations for destroying major parts of Iraq and years of genocidal sanctions.
It then needs to withdraw the entire army and leave it up to Iraqi's to determing their own countries fate.
Yes, in Sadr City they are mostly militias, the Mahdi Army is backed by Iran, one the key supporters of Shia Islamic terror.
Where's your evidence Gregori? so far it's just your opinions. Surely accusing the US of "genocidal sanctions" and insisting on massive repatriations requires a little bit more than that?
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Yes, in Sadr City they are mostly militias, the Mahdi Army is backed by Iran, one the key supporters of Shia Islamic terror.
Where's your evidence Gregori? so far it's just your opinions. Surely accusing the US of "genocidal sanctions" and insisting on massive repatriations requires a little bit more than that?
The Evidence? Just look at the state of Iraq post invasion! There are so many reports on it, I won't even bother quoting. Google helps. There are also many books on it. I don't have all day
If turning a country into a unworkable wreck and breeding ground for terrorism is evidence of a working strategy....
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Thanks for providing a perfect example of how a discussion about the nature of terrorism and those that choose to ignore it gets transformed into a personal attack. Instead of debating the character of terror or the point that some people chose to overlook it and blame others, you chose to fabricate my position and facts on entirely different topics. Further discussion is probably pointless and will no doubt be unpleasant.
Nope. It's an example of what can happen to a person when they debate with someone who can't see beyond what they are told. I did not fabricate your position. To support the war on terror and Iraq is to support what is happening in the name of the war. Gitmo,Bagram and the kidnappings.
There's plenty of evidence to show the current military strategy is working and terrorism is being defeated in Iraq and Afghanistan. As is often said, the Islamists can't win their war with the West, but the West can lose it.
No it isn't. The war in Afghanistan isn't won yet. No where near it. Analyst are warning of a long war and that was when the Taliban were fighting a conventional warfare. If they switch over to an Iraqi style war who knows what will happen.
The only reason why Iraq is being pacified is because of the Sunni tribes. They can switch any time and bring back the situation to where it was last year. Besides look at Iraq now. It's not safe. The violence has gone to 2005 level. Deaths are also mounting.
So what's the alternative for dealing with radial Islamic terrorism, surrender and convert to Wahhabism?
How about you leave muslims alone? Thats you problem not radical Islam (such thing doesn't exist by the way). You can't expect to meddle in other peoples affair which always leads to countless deaths on the side of the people who are meddled with and then expect them to like you.
Well here's a small piece of evidence from yesterday - now where's the evidence to show that the Iraqi government and coalition strategy is not working?
Here
With the cease-fire agreement between the Sadrist movement and the Iraqi government now in full effect after the four-day grace period that began on May 11,
This is not the first time there was a ceasefire signed with the Mahdi Army. The fact that the Iraqi Government and US soldiers signed it just means that it will avoid violence for a couple of months before it flares up again. Just like all the other ceasefires.
Invading Afghanistan and fighting AQ and the Iranian backed groups in Iraq is eroding their support base. The coalition is under UN mandate to be inside both Iraq and Afghanistan as well as being requested by their governments. Should the coalition ignore the UN and those governments that desperately need help?
Those were AFTER the invasions. USA/UK and the other brown nosing nations who invaded never got permission to invade Iraq by the UN. If Iran invaded Iraq in 2003 Bush would be supplying Iran weapons faster then a speeding train.
Islamic terrorism existed a long time before the Baathists and the Taliban were removed from power. What are the causes of Islamic terrorism?
America was meddling in Muslim affairs before 9/11. Several decades before 9/11. Do you seriously think that a bunch of Muslims decided one day. "Hey lets hate America for having freedom"
"...all I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by."
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the defence of Lebanon by Hezbollah
What was that about Hezbollah 'defending' Lebanon from Israel? Who started the fight? Hezbollah. So was Israel meant to just sit there with missiles reigning down on Israeli Civilians? No. The Lebanese wouldn't do anything to stop Hezbollah so the Israelis had to stop them.
Islam has the cheek to lecture the rest of the world about tolerance when inIslamic Countries converting to another religon is, by law, punishable by death, Christains are beheaded, sharing a faith other than Islam is punishable by death...
Use what is abundant and build to last
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...
America was meddling in Muslim affairs before 9/11. Several decades before 9/11. Do you seriously think that a bunch of Muslims decided one day. "Hey lets hate America for having freedom"Yes, I do in fact.
We we're buying their oil. Sorry but we need oil.
We were helping Israel, because they are our allies.
Under the Clinton Administration we were trying to broker a peace agreement between the Palestinians and Israel!
And suddenly on September 11, 2001, some 19 Islamic nuts from Saudi Arabia flew passenger airplanes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and into the ground in Pennsylvania.
I'm sorry that I have to keep on giving this history lesson, but many people keep on forgetting this important point.I would like nothing better to quit meddling in Muslim affairs if they would quite meddling in ours, but this doesn't mean surrendering Israel. Israel exists and has existed since 1948, and as long as the Arabs keep trying to change this reality, then we will have to meddle in their affairs. We can't let aggression in the Middle East that threatens oil supplies to go unchecked after all.
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...
America was meddling in Muslim affairs before 9/11. Several decades before 9/11. Do you seriously think that a bunch of Muslims decided one day. "Hey lets hate America for having freedom"Yes, I do in fact.
We we're buying their oil. Sorry but we need oil.
We were helping Israel, because they are our allies.
Under the Clinton Administration we were trying to broker a peace agreement between the Palestinians and Israel!
And suddenly on September 11, 2001, some 19 Islamic nuts from Saudi Arabia flew passenger airplanes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and into the ground in Pennsylvania.
I'm sorry that I have to keep on giving this history lesson, but many people keep on forgetting this important point.I would like nothing better to quit meddling in Muslim affairs if they would quite meddling in ours, but this doesn't mean surrendering Israel. Israel exists and has existed since 1948, and as long as the Arabs keep trying to change this reality, then we will have to meddle in their affairs. We can't let aggression in the Middle East that threatens oil supplies to go unchecked after all.
Buying oil is fine. Meddling in the Middle East political affairs is not. Occupying armies in the Middle East are just not cool. The oil is not yours.
Launching coup detat's, overthrowing goverments, supporting dictators and aparteid regimes, threatening wars, bombings, supplying weapons that kill civilians and rewriting tax laws by decree is just not cool.
9/11 has practically nothing to do with invading Iraq. Note that the Hi-jackers were nearly all Saudi's
Meddling in the Middle East's affairs has been a practice of the United States for many decades and of the British Empire before it. Europe also shares the blame for this and the sanctions that killed 100 000's of Iraqi were just horrendous.
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"the sanctions that killed 100 000's of Iraqi were just horrendous."
This is a rather silly myth.
Bob
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"the sanctions that killed 100 000's of Iraqi were just horrendous."
This is a rather silly myth.
Bob
Actually it's been pretty well documented and studied.
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“Launching coup detat's, overthrowing goverments, supporting dictators and aparteid regimes, threatening wars, bombings, supplying weapons that kill civilians and rewriting tax laws by decree is just not cool.”
I think one could question each of the elements of this sentence, but lets concentrate on one: supporting apartheid regimes. I know of only one apartheid regime, South Africa from 1948 or so to 1994 or so. Nobody invaded South Africa to change their system; perhaps because they weren’t threatening anybody else. But the Western democracies sure did a lot to let South Africa know they disapproved and caused the regime considerable inconvenience:
Cultural and sporting isolation starting in the 1950s
Removal from the Commonwealth in 1961
The 1963 arms embargo
Financial support to the ANC from Western governments and NGOs starting in the 1960s
Increasing trade sanctions and disinvestment in the 1980s culminating in the 1989 US Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act.
This is a record that could have been much better, but not one any fair analysis would conclude was a support of apartheid. Sins of omission are different from sins of commission.
Oh, and what on Earth is “rewriting tax laws by decree?”
Bob
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"Actually it's been pretty well documented and studied."
In that case maybe you could source the assertion. Some outfit that makes some pretense of objectivity, provides quantitative data from reliable sources, considers alternative competing hypotheses, and uses at least 20th century statistical methods.
A lack of ranting would also be appreciated.
Bob
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“Launching coup detat's, overthrowing goverments, supporting dictators and aparteid regimes, threatening wars, bombings, supplying weapons that kill civilians and rewriting tax laws by decree is just not cool.”
I think one could question each of the elements of this sentence, but lets concentrate on one: supporting apartheid regimes. I know of only one apartheid regime, South Africa from 1948 or so to 1994 or so. Nobody invaded South Africa to change their system; perhaps because they weren’t threatening anybody else. But the Western democracies sure did a lot to let South Africa know they disapproved and caused the regime considerable inconvenience:
Cultural and sporting isolation starting in the 1950s
Removal from the Commonwealth in 1961
The 1963 arms embargo
Financial support to the ANC from Western governments and NGOs starting in the 1960s
Increasing trade sanctions and disinvestment in the 1980s culminating in the 1989 US Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act.This is a record that could have been much better, but not one any fair analysis would conclude was a support of apartheid. Sins of omission are different from sins of commission.
Bob
I'm referring to Israel. They run a de-facto apartheid regime.
Oh, and what on Earth is “rewriting tax laws by decree?”
When the CPA took over control of governing Iraq, Paul Bremer rewrote Iraqi Tax laws to suit western corporations.
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“I'm referring to Israel. They run a de-facto apartheid regime.”
I think that’s rather disrespectful of the tens of millions of Blacks who endured real Apartheid.
It’s easy to cheapen the currency of language, but then, of course, it’s a lot harder to know what we are really talking about. Misunderstanding is not usually a good thing when one seeks accommodation and reconciliation.
Bob
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“I'm referring to Israel. They run a de-facto apartheid regime.”
I think that’s rather disrespectful of the tens of millions of Blacks who endured real Apartheid.
It’s easy to cheapen the currency of language, but then, of course, it’s a lot harder to know what we are really talking about. Misunderstanding is not usually a good thing when one seeks accommodation and reconciliation.
Bob
Calling it anything less is pretty disrespecful to millions of Palestinians who have suffered at the hands of the Israeli regime.
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CPA authority expired in June of 2004. Bremmer had been in Iraq for 13 months; most of the rules promulgated had been in effect for considerably less than a year--only a matter of a few months.
But consider some of those rules about which complaints might be lodged of suiting western corporations:
> Permit 100 percent foreign ownership of businesses
> Allow for complete repatriation of profits without tax
> No requirements for reinvestment, hiring local labor, or provisioning public services.
> Foreign banks can enter the Iraqi market and take a 50 percent interest
Just like in the United States—and, for the most part, I believe, in Ireland.
> Drop the corporate tax rate from 40 percent to a flat 15 percent. The income tax is capped at 15 percent.
Not a bad idea for encouraging economic growth, especially when the revenue isn’t needed because of the potential for oil revenue.
> Suspension of tariffs, customs duties, import taxes, licensing fees and similar surcharges for goods entering or leaving Iraq, and all other trade restrictions that may apply to such goods."
Adam Smith and David Ricardo would be smiling. Great idea. If only the rest of the world would participate.
> Privatize the country's 200 state-owned enterprises
I couldn’t think of a better idea, if you want to help an economy that suffered from horrendous state monopolies.
> Security firms get full immunity from Iraq's laws.
Not a good idea, but 7 out of 8 is pretty good.
As for decree: Whether you like the removal of Saddam or not, you really can’t expect a military occupation to take a vote a few months after they arrive. They took a couple of years to have elections, which doesn’t seem terribly oppressive.
In any case, one might disagree with the free market economic policies of the early occupation, but does such disagreement really warrant killing people? I don’t think the precise income tax rate has been a significant motivating factor for much of anything.
Bob
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"Calling it anything less is pretty disrespecful to millions of Palestinians who have suffered at the hands of the Israeli regime."
Maybe, but is it an accurate use of the word? And is using words contrary to their plain meaning usually helpful in solving disputes?
Bob
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"Calling it anything less is pretty disrespecful to millions of Palestinians who have suffered at the hands of the Israeli regime."
Maybe, but is it an accurate use of the word? And is using words contrary to their plain meaning usually helpful in solving disputes?
Bob
The Palestinians are living in a situation were their homes are bull dozed to build settlements for Israeli's (predominatly Jewish). They're not allowed have Israeli citizenship because it would stop the ability of Jews to dominate the state. It often refered to as the "demographic problem"
There are seperate roads that only Israeli's are allowed to access. A giant annexation wall is being built. Israel control the borders and interfere's with various aspects of the Palestinian's lives, but won't adknowledge their rights or state.
Israeli has a racist/sectarian immigration policy that allows Jewish people anywhere in the world to become citizens regardless of their country of birth or any other connection to Israel.
This is effectively an aparthied regime.
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Calling Israel an apartheid regime is mild compared with the usual hysterical accusations of it being, of all things, a Nazi one. This is standard propaganda distributed by Israel's enemies, who will say and do absolutely anything to get more power. Truth is unimportant, what's important is the destruction of Israel and the final extermination of the Jewish people by any means possible.
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What is demonstrated is "cart before the horse" reasoning. The reason the Israelis have seperate roads is directly attributed to the violent behavior of the Palestinians and their expressed support for violence as demostrated by their election of Hamas in the Gaza strip. Contrary to bulldozing houses of Palestinians so that Jews can live there, Jews have evacuated the Gaza strip and the Palestinians have either bulldozed or otherwise occupied former Jewish homes, and they've begun a program of missile contruction and launches of rockets with the intent of killing hapless Israeli civilians in Israel proper. All this Liberal rhetoric against Israel is in equal parts pandering to Arabs and a reflexive attack against George Bush's foreign policy in which they intend to do just the opposite of what he's doing. I've noticed alot of Jews who actually care about their Judaism have been becoming Republicans lately. Some Jews just can't contemplate marching in lockstep with pro-Palestinian demonstrators who chant "Death to Israel" and call for their blood, jews who have up to now been stalwart Democrats and liberals now find themselves in the crosshairs of non-jewish liberals and "antiwar" protestors.
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What is demonstrated is "cart before the horse" reasoning. The reason the Israelis have seperate roads is directly attributed to the violent behavior of the Palestinians and their expressed support for violence as demostrated by their election of Hamas in the Gaza strip. Contrary to bulldozing houses of Palestinians so that Jews can live there, Jews have evacuated the Gaza strip and the Palestinians have either bulldozed or otherwise occupied former Jewish homes, and they've begun a program of missile contruction and launches of rockets with the intent of killing hapless Israeli civilians in Israel proper. All this Liberal rhetoric against Israel is in equal parts pandering to Arabs and a reflexive attack against George Bush's foreign policy in which they intend to do just the opposite of what he's doing. I've noticed alot of Jews who actually care about their Judaism have been becoming Republicans lately. Some Jews just can't contemplate marching in lockstep with pro-Palestinian demonstrators who chant "Death to Israel" and call for their blood, jews who have up to now been stalwart Democrats and liberals now find themselves in the crosshairs of non-jewish liberals and "antiwar" protestors.
You could be equally accused of "cart before the horse" reasoning! Palestinians aren't being violent for no reason, there are many many preceeding causes to it. Violence precceded the election of Hamas, and the other Palestinian faction Fatah was behind much of it (people have a short memory and tend to forget this)
Turning a country into hell because of who they democratically elected is both disturbing and gives the wrong message in the Middle East. It tells them that we are bunch of hypocrites who have no respect for democracy. What is the point of democracy if their leaders have to be who we tell them?
The so called liberal rhethoric against Israel is infact a rejection of US foreign policy for decades, well before Bush came into power. There is no reason why anyone should be "pandering to Arabs" anymore than the whole US Goverment should be pandering to a Jewish state. There is no sectarianism in the US constitution - so I find it all a little un-american and unpatriotic to support such a state. I'm sure you wouldn't support preferential treatment to on the base of race or religion in your own country.
I find your phrasing "pandering to Arabs" to be a tacit agreement with racism. Maybe that just my impression and I'm wrong..
Call me a "Liberal" or whatever, but my position is that Palestinians deserve rights and self determination, just like Israeli's or Americans or any people on the earth do!
Even when Gaza was evacuated and turned into a virtual open air prison, Israel consolidated it gains in the West Bank and it did not stop bulldozing houses and building settlements. This isn't a response to Palestinian terrorism - Its just pure expansionism. The same policy has been going on for decades. Israel wants to annex as much of the territory as possible.
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I think it’s rather pointless to go on and on about how the Israelis should give the Palestinians rights, self-determination, and stop all the awful things they’re doing.
We had an expression in the bad old days of Chicago politics, “Where’s mine?”
Nations on the edge of survival do not play games of should and rights and reason. They struggle for life itself. Most Israelis have relatives who were killed in the Holocaust, and “Never again” is always at the surface.
So they want to know, “Where’s mine?” What do the Israelis get for whatever they give? Land for promises doesn’t seem like a real good deal.
One can identify and vehemently condemn the villain. Or, one can try to identify a path to some kind of accommodation leading to political stability, and the opportunity for fulfilling lives for all of the participants. Between the two, I think the latter has the potential for more productive and interesting results.
You might start with, What are the Israelis capable of giving?
They can’t give much in the way of land or they won’t have a viable state. They can’t allow a significant number of Arabs to return to Israel or they won’t have a viable state. The Israelis are not going to commit suicide.
And their possession of hundreds of nuclear weapons and corresponding delivery systems means that the death of the state will have horrific and dreadful consequences for the whole world. A radioactive cloud floating over Europe and decades of no oil from the Middle East for a start.
I have the feeling that attacking civilians with rockets and suicide bombers is not a good way to encourage offers of just about any kind.
You know, we elected George Bush democratically. That doesn’t mean you have to like what he does, nor that you can’t hope for a prompt change. Hamas was elected democratically. That doesn’t mean they’re not crazy.
Bob
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we should give them something to lose if they don't...
They wouldn't able to commit their crimes without enormous US financial and military aid
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we should give them something to lose if they don't...
You realize that is precisely Israels policy against the Arabs?
No one wants to believe it, but this all started because the Arabs attempted to deny Jews everything the Arabs claim to lack today.
"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane
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"we should give them something to lose if they don't... "
If they don't what? Commit suicide?
“They wouldn't able to commit their crimes without enormous US financial and military aid”
An alternative is to put them in a position in which they face national extinction.
What else do you suggest?
But, the Jews won’t go quietly this time. Are you really seeking that radioactive cloud over Europe; sprinkling iodine-131, caesium-137, tellurium, strontium-90, zirconium-95, niobium-95, lanthanum-140, cerium-144, neptunium, plutonium and other pleasantries?
Bob
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Firstly, there's no substantial evidence that Israel possesses nuclear weapons and if they do they are clearly useless against suicide bombers inside their country. If they exist they are also not a very effective deterrent against Iran as it continues to press ahead with its nuclear program while fighting a proxy war with Israel using Hezbollah, and promising to wipe Israel off the map.
Since its chaotic foundation was approved by the UN in 1947, Israel has been attacked by its neighboring states in several wars and suffered under continuous terrorism for 60 years. Israel is in a war for its survival. It's curious that only Israeli "crimes" and "atrocities" are mentioned by the the supporters of those who want to destroy Israel and never the context and the remorseless deliberate attacks on their citizens. The terrorists regard every Israeli, both adult and child, as valid targets and have said so many times. On the other hand Israel's reaction has been measured and as humane as possible given the barbaric violence used against them. One in six Israelis is Muslim, nearly all of them live peacefully with their Jewish and Christian neighbors.
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