President of India calls for joint - US/Indian habitat on Mars by 2050

dicktice · 2007-03-04 20:25:02

I was in Sweden at the time, and felt only embarrassment.

C M Edwards · 2007-03-05 11:59:40

I don't think they were Bible thumpers; they may not even have been church goers. In the USA, it is common to use Bible passages in situations like that. I was a secular 15 year old (a nominal Christian) that Christmas eve and was very moved.

None of the Apollo 8 crew were card carrying fundamentalists. Lovell and Borman reportedly attended the same church, and Borman was a member of the church vestry (a leadership committee elected by the congregation) at the time. I have heard of this incident, but hadn't realized the amount of controversy it inspired at the time.

Use of religious quotations in these situations was not only common, it was traditional. Lovell's in-flight revelations about Santa Claus needed the curtain of charity, true, but I'm surprised by the fact that there was a lawsuit involved that made it all the way to a US Federal Court of Appeals. Compared to hopping on a moon rocket, Borman's bible readings weren't even sufficiently unusual to categorize them as "bold".

Still (edging back toward the original topic), when an Indian crew goes to the moon they're likely to beam back a few ceremonial religious quotations, too. Probably none of them will be christian like myself, either. I can readily imagine how that would disturb me if I thought it meant people of my religious/philosophical persuasion were going to be barred from making the same trip. But the solution isn't to tell all of the hindu astronauts to shut up for fear of offending the christians. The solution is to send up an even more diverse group, and give each one his own 15 minutes of air time. Let everyone have a trip to the podium.

IMHO, reading your favorite religious text from lunar orbit is wrong if no one else is allowed to do the same thing. I just don't agree that "So don't read it" is the correct response to that dilema.

dicktice · 2007-03-05 16:13:38

Re. "Use of religious quotations in these situations was not only common, it was traditional."

Nothing traditional about it! It was a first, in every sense of the word. Armstrong got it right when he said what he said after stepping off the ladder. Aldrin owned up that he peed his spacesuit pants--er diaper-- when he stood on the Moon for the first time. How very human! As far as I can remember, none of the other Apollo astronauts performed a religious bit for the folks back home: they pranced about and joked as they joy-rode about the Lunar landscape, without once quoting from the Bible. The mere thought of a chaplain, or a rabbi, or a mullah, arriving on the Moon and stopping to say grace, or whatever, to thank their respective diety for having delivered them in one piece ... now THAT would be scary.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2007-03-16 17:54:03

'Living on Mars possible

India's first mission to moon 'Chandrayaan I' this year, manned mission to earth's satellite in 2014, landing on Mars in 2020 and perhaps colonisation of the red planet later. That's Indian space think tank's list of missions for the future. ..
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi … 690309.cms

"The day time temperatures are about 20 degrees Celsius though night time temperatures are low. We should be able to build an atmosphere without much problem. Then, we could send half our population there," said Physical Research Laboratory council chairman and former Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) chief Prof U R Rao on Monday.

We should build a mass transportation system to send people to Mars though it takes six months to reach there," added U R Rao. Earth's natural satellite, moon, would need to be used as a transition point to Mars. He said that an elevator could be built to moon as it was only half a million miles away.

Commodore · 2007-03-17 14:56:41

The mere thought of a chaplain, or a rabbi, or a mullah, arriving on the Moon and stopping to say grace, or whatever, to thank their respective diety for having delivered them in one piece ... now THAT would be scary.

Whats scary about that?

The thought that religion, despite being just as flawed as any other human institution ever created, might spoil your "sacred ground"?

Or the thought that you might be wrong?

Back on topic, I think mankind needs a frontier to solve its problems, be they poverty, overcrowding or religious friction. India has all three in spades. And all countries will benefit. The challenges to open that frontier are at this point largely technical.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2007-03-29 05:37:21

Whats scary about that?
The thought that religion, despite being just as flawed as any other human institution ever created, might spoil your "sacred ground"?
Or the thought that you might be wrong?
Back on topic, I think mankind needs a frontier to solve its problems, be they poverty, overcrowding or religious friction. India has all three in spades. And all countries will benefit. The challenges to open that frontier are at this point largely technical.

How the heck is Mars going to slove, over-crowding, poverty and religious radicalism ? Religious extremists have been around for a long time, who is to say that the Ayatollah's and Hindu-radicals won't be found on the first Martian city.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-03-29 08:24:08

If you want it to fail, then by all means, build and expensive dome and send a cross-eyed hindu or muslim radical to blow it up. there is nothing new or radical about radicals, there are too many of them, what we really need are conventional thinkers who don't try to impose violently their "new ideas" on other people.

Rxke · 2007-03-29 11:08:30

We should be able to build an atmosphere without much problem. Then, we could send half our population there," said Physical Research Laboratory council chairman and former Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) chief Prof U R Rao on Monday.

yeah sure.

I want some of the stuff he's smoking

Mars_B4_Moon · 2007-05-09 10:47:31

Manned mission to moon in 8 yrs: Govt

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/manned-miss … 86-11.html

Mars_B4_Moon · 2007-10-07 02:48:51

India aims at Mars mission
"ISRO has unveiled preliminary ideas of sending a spacecraft to Mars. The Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV), will be capable of sending a 500 kg orbiter (spacecraft) to the Mars, said the ISRO chief, Mr N. Madhavan Nair."
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 … 961000.htm

"We are capable of sending a spacecraft to Mars: ISRO chief"

http://www.hindu.com/2007/09/28/stories … 001600.htm

Looks like the Euros (Arianespace) are going to be next to outsource their space agency to India

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-08 03:48:07

2050 is such a long time from now.
Why not plan on going to Mars by the 24th century, by that time we can enlist the aid of Mr. Spock!

Mars_B4_Moon · 2008-02-12 09:14:20

India and the US: partners or rivals in space?
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1056/1

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2008-03-13 05:01:05

Space plans get major thrust
BS Reporter / New Delhi March 03, 2008

India’s space research programme will see greater focus on manned mission initiatives and human space flights during 2008-09.
Signalling the importance of high-end research, Finance Minister P Chidambaram has increased the Budgetary allocation for space research programmes to Rs 4,074 crore, a 23.8 per cent increase over 2007-08.
As much as Rs 1,588.48 crore of the allocation is earmarked for launch-vehicle technology, including the development of Geo-Synchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) and manned mission initiatives.
The government has allotted Rs 100 crore, compared with Rs 2.5 crore in 2007-08, for the development of a fully autonomous manned space vehicle to carry a two-member crew to a distance of 400 km into space.
Another major area that has seen a huge jump in Budgetary allocation is special indigenisation and advance ordering of space research-related products.
The government has proposed to provide Rs 350 crore, as against Rs 13.95 crore in 2007-08, to the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) to interface with the domestic industry to develop various electronic components, materials and chemicals for the space programme. The scope of the scheme also includes procurement of certain long lead and critical items for futuristic missions.
The government has also proposed budgetary support for the plans of the Department of Space to strengthen the National Natural Resources Management System for ensuring optimal management of natural resources by integrating information derived from remote sensing data with conventional techniques.
The plans for developing a semi-cryogenic engine that uses kerosene and liquid oxygen as fuel and oxidiser for future advanced launch vehicle are to also make progress during 2008-09.
The Budget also provides funds for Chandrayaan 1, Indian lunar mission meant to prepare three-dimensional atlas of regions of scientific interest of the moon and chemical mapping of the entire lunar surface for various elements.
Chandrayaan 1 is targeted for launch during 2008 on board the PSLV.

noosfractal · 2008-03-13 09:33:52

Rs 4,000 crore = $US 1 billion

louis · 2008-03-26 20:22:47

Palomar -

ISRU technologies will be vital in lifting India's rural poor out of resource poverty. Solar power; solar furnaces; wind power; wave power; mini hydro; micro power generation; hydroponic agriculture; efficient recycling; water manufacture...all of these could be hugely important.

EuroLauncher · 2008-04-14 15:32:18

India has great potential

but I'm not sure it has much to offer the United States at this time other than being a cheap outsourcing destination

Tom Kalbfus · 2008-04-29 11:46:56

Sounds like a good idea. A US/Indian collaboration. I think the two biggest democracies in the world should get together and compete with China. The US and India have more values in common, and would make natural allies in this endeavor, and India with its large population and high growth rate would enable us to compete with China as we explore and settle the Solar System over the long term.

Tom Kalbfus · 2008-04-29 11:52:23

India has great potential
but I'm not sure it has much to offer the United States at this time other than being a cheap outsourcing destination

It is more about the future than about the present at this time. Now is the time for the US to establish a relationship with India while India is on the "ground floor" so to speak. The US has a population of 300 million and China has 1.3 billion people, and India has a billion. I think the US and India can be dual leaders of the free world, and if freedom is to spread to outer space, I think we need India's help. India will develop, cheap outsourcing it is today, but tomorrow, it will be an industrial/manufacturing hub. If we can help India to progress, we'd be the "hand that rocks the cradle" so to speak. I don't want undemocratic China dominating the World and the Solar System, India is the perfect counterbalance to it.

cIclops · 2008-04-29 12:07:19

Sounds like a good idea. A US/Indian collaboration. I think the two biggest democracies in the world should get together and compete with China. The US and India have more values in common, and would make natural allies in this endeavor, and India with its large population and high growth rate would enable us to compete with China as we explore and settle the Solar System over the long term.

Hey there Tom, did you get lost?

We now have a Space Politics section that might be a good place to move this topic.

Cooperation in space is good for both sides. The US gets extra funding for missions that can make them viable. India gets access to US technology and platforms that enable missions that they couldn't do by themselves. Clearly the US doesn't want to provide technology to adversaries and China is becoming increasingly hostile. India hasn't exactly been helpful either, but yes it's a democracy and its adversaries include Pakistan, a close ally of China, and China itself. The US also has a military alliance with Pakistan. Quite a ménage à trois huh

Space cooperation should not be confused with economic cooperation, the US does an enormous amount of trade with China, and very little with India. It's hard to see the current global balance of power extending as far into the future as when the solar system is being settled. It will change.

Tom Kalbfus · 2008-04-30 08:39:48

Sounds like a good idea. A US/Indian collaboration. I think the two biggest democracies in the world should get together and compete with China. The US and India have more values in common, and would make natural allies in this endeavor, and India with its large population and high growth rate would enable us to compete with China as we explore and settle the Solar System over the long term.
Hey there Tom, did you get lost?

I have a limited amount of time online, my computer broke, so for the time being, I'm using a library computer. I hope to remedy this situation when I get my rebate check from the US Government.

We now have a Space Politics section that might be a good place to move this topic.

The subject is inherently political when your talking about two nations cooperating in space, its hard to talk about it at all without straying into politics to some degree.

Cooperation in space is good for both sides. The US gets extra funding for missions that can make them viable. India gets access to US technology and platforms that enable missions that they couldn't do by themselves. Clearly the US doesn't want to provide technology to adversaries and China is becoming increasingly hostile. India hasn't exactly been helpful either, but yes it's a democracy and its adversaries include Pakistan, a close ally of China, and China itself. The US also has a military alliance with Pakistan. Quite a ménage à trois huh

I see India as more of an investment for the future. I hope China becomes a democracy, but I'm not holding my breath.
India has a left-wing component that reflexively hates America, maybe because we speak English and they somehow associate us with their former British Imperial Masters, its not very rational. That left-wing component is getting old, its a hold over from those old Cold War days, when India's poor and ignorant swallowed Soviet propaganda from the Tas News Agency "lock stock and barrel." I figure that India is finally learning how to manage its economy, and its growing at a remarkable rate. Perhaps competition and rivalry with China has finally inspired them to try something that works, like market economics, rather than something that doesn't like socialism. The Example of the Soviet Union's demise also inspires them not to follow their path. There is only one way to grow, market capitalism, and most of the world realizes this by now. The only other question is whether oligarchs, tyrants, and dictators find other levers of power while working within the capitalist system. Socialism offered them control of the economy, but a tyrant's power is also proportional to the economic might of the country he rules, China's rulers realize this, so they loosen up direct control of their economy, while maintaining the political levers of power. The reason why China is a future rival to us is its adoption of capitalism, and also its maintenance of non-democratic levers of power.

Space cooperation should not be confused with economic cooperation, the US does an enormous amount of trade with China, and very little with India. It's hard to see the current global balance of power extending as far into the future as when the solar system is being settled. It will change.

The Solar System will be settled by the first nation that makes the first great push toward settlement there, and the nation that will be in the best position to make the first push will be that one which makes the largest investments in its space transportation infrastructure.

India and the USA have more in common than China and the USA, and besides, I'd rather we build a relationship with a country rather than that country's rulers. China is exploiting the capitalist system to grow, India is playing "catch-up". I think its in the US's interest to help India catch-up with China where ever we can. As for Pakistan, we are allies with it for as long as it helps us in the War against Terrorism, we push for democratization in that country as well as China, but its a matter of a relationship with that country's ruler rather than its people. Pakistan is an Islamic country, and unfortunately muslims tend to be suckers of Pro-terrorist propaganda, India's population is less sympathetic to Islamic extremism, so therefore a more natural ally for us.

Gregori · 2008-05-14 06:30:02

If China stopped trading with the US tomorrow, your entire economy would collapse. Kablaam! I say quit the bullshit and big moral high horse about China. Most of your goods are already from over there so I fail to see what you're proving through space.

I don't approve of the Chinese government and how that place is run, but I don't see how freezing them out of space co-operation will achieve anything.

I think that democratic reform can happen in China by taking away the hostility and co-operating. We can have more of an influence on the populous by being non threatening. It is becoming more open and that trend is likely to continue.

It will be a big mistake not to co-operate with China in space, because one way or another they are going to get there. They have the resources and soon enough they'll will have the expertise. China will do a deal with the Russians over space, thats very likely. ESA is very likely to co-operate with Russia also. In the far future, its not that unlikely that ESA will co-operate with China on a space program. If US limits its potential partners in space, It might get its ass kicked when it comes to colonization and economics in space.

I think its really positive that India wants to co-operate in Space exploration. I can only hope for more co-operation.

We can all get there together!!

Commodore · 2008-05-14 06:42:14

If China stopped trading with the US tomorrow, your entire economy would collapse. Kablaam!

So would theirs.

Gregori · 2008-05-14 06:46:11

If China stopped trading with the US tomorrow, your entire economy would collapse. Kablaam!
So would theirs.

And so would yours... etc etc

Undoubtfully it would have very very bad effects for both parties. Thats what co-operation is for!

I think they could take it better from a natural resources point of view. They produce practically everything.

Commodore · 2008-05-14 07:01:42

If China stopped trading with the US tomorrow, your entire economy would collapse. Kablaam!
So would theirs.
And so would yours... etc etc

So... We just need to hope that the Politburo never decides to commit economic suicide.

Actually we just need to use our technology to mass produce everything cheaper than the Chinese can.

cIclops · 2008-05-15 04:20:09

If trade between China and the US ceased overnight, there would a serious economic crisis in both countries, but it would impact China far more than the US. The US takes 20% of Chinese exports, whereas the US represents only 7% of Chinese imports. For the US, Chinese imports are 16% and exports just 6%. China also holds lots of US bonds, these would fall in value at the same time as China lost a big chunk of its export market.

There would be almost no effect on space cooperation between China and the US as there isn't any.

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