Ares I (CLV) - status

gaetanomarano · 2008-04-16 08:58:18

You had talked before (or more like whined) using 4 segmented boosters because the technology was available, well this is using what's available to do a test NOW to get some real information on how this thing'll fly.

this test WAS a great idea if accomplished in 2006 with a 4-seg. SRB based rocket in mind, while, a 4-seg. SRB test is useless since it will give poor data to know if the (real) 5-seg. SRB + J-2X rocket can/will fly

that's why a successful Ares 1-X launch is WORSE than a launch fail, since, a success may FOOL the engineers that might discover ONLY in 2013 (when the full Ares-1 will be tested) that the Ares-1 can't fly and that the (maybe, good) Ares 1-X data can't be applied to a completely different rocket

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GCNRevenger · 2008-04-16 09:56:58

Well gaetano, NASA seems to think launching a rocket with the same mass, same dimensions, and other similar properties as the real Ares-I is worth launching for testing. They are a legion of professional aerospace engineers. You are not.

cIclops · 2008-04-16 10:29:03

It's also a test of the ground support operations. Getting the vehicle flow optimized with the design is critical to reducing costs.

gaetanomarano · 2008-04-16 12:30:14

NASA seems to think launching a rocket with the same mass, same dimensions, and other similar properties as the real Ares-I is worth launching for testing.

WRONG... the DUMB upperstage mass of the Ares 1-X can't be the same of the Ares-1 SRB-5 since, the latter, is expected to lift MORE mass... also, the 5 segments SRB will have a DIFFERENT mass, thrust, Isp, burning time, nozzle, propellents' grain and shape, electronics, etc. ...in America you say: "it's like compare apples and oranges"

They are a legion of professional aerospace engineers. You are not.

that will make it MUCH MORE EMBARRASSING for them if/when the Ares-1 will not fly.. :oops: :oops: :oops:

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gaetanomarano · 2008-04-16 12:34:44

It's also a test of the ground support operations.

ground support is important but just a small part of all operations, also, nearly everything will be different with the real Ares-1 (launch pad, assembly, crawler operations, emergencies, astronauts safety, propellents fueling, etc.) so, the Ares 1-X experience will count pretty close to ZERO

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cIclops · 2008-04-16 12:55:43

It's also a test of the ground support operations.
ground support is important but just a small part of all operations, also, nearly everything will be different with the real Ares-1 (launch pad, assembly, crawler operations, emergencies, astronauts safety, propellents fueling, etc.) so, the Ares 1-X experience will count pretty close to ZERO

Depending on the flight rate, ground ops will be as expensive or more than the marginal cost of the vehicles. It's a significant chunk of the cost. Shuttle ground ops cost several times the marginal replacement costs.

Ares I-X offers far more than zero compatibility for ground ops simulation. The main difference is that the upper stage has no LOX/LH2 tanks for filling and there will be no crew. Physical size, mass and handling will be almost exactly the same. Getting ops experience with a highly similar vehicle will provide real input before CDR and help enormously to test proposed procedures and equipment.

gaetanomarano · 2008-04-16 14:51:16

help enormously to test proposed procedures and equipment

assuming you're right on this point, this doesn't mean that the real Ares-1 will fly, so, the experience gained with the 1-X will be useless... the problem is the rocket, not its launch... if the rocket works, launch it will be easy to do

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GCNRevenger · 2008-04-16 19:09:25

Didn't you read Ciclops' post gaetano? Of all those hundreds of millions of dollars you persistently wail and gnash your teeth about per-launch, a large fraction of it goes to assembling/readying the various parts of the rocket for launch.

And if it costs a lot of money, it must be a fairly big deal. So, getting a little practice in to work out how to put together and roll out Ares-I is a pretty good idea, in addition to gathering important data on wind shear and vibration (yes, four-segment boosters cause vibration too) that you paint as the sure doom of the project.

Taking the parts of the rocket and launching them are not easy to do, you don't know what you are talking about, it just looks easy because NASA is so good at it. But good rocket engineering doesn't come cheap, and it doesn't come without testing.

gaetanomarano · 2008-04-17 09:15:54

...wind shear and vibration...

yes, these (plus acceleration and stability) tests may be the only good reason to launch the Ares 1-X ...and to scrap the full project...

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cIclops · 2008-04-18 09:40:14

From Cx Test & Evaluation (PDF) - 14 Mar 2008

This test flight is planned for 2012.

RedStreak · 2008-04-18 11:43:14

Ares I-Y makes use of a 5-segment 1st stage I presume?

cIclops · 2008-04-18 14:29:26

Yes, it's planned to use all flight hardware except the J-2X.

cIclops · 2008-05-03 01:56:21

Successful Test Firing of Space Shuttle Reusable Solid Rocket Motor

MINNEAPOLIS, May 1 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The Utah desert was filled with the sight and sound of power today as Alliant Techsystems (NYSE: ATK) conducted a successful test firing of NASA's space shuttle reusable solid rocket motor (RSRM) as part of continuous testing to improve performance and ensure safety of the space shuttle and to aid development of the first stage of Ares I.
An average of 2.6 million pounds of thrust was generated during the test that lasted just over two minutes -- the same duration as when launching the space shuttle. The test included 32 objectives, with the main two being validation of the age-life certification of the motor and measuring the acoustics, or sound, emitted from the booster when it fires.
Validating the booster's age-life certification was performed by comparing it to its twin booster that was test fired three years ago. Both boosters were manufactured at the same time using the same components. They were shipped to the Kennedy Space Center and subsequently stacked then de-stacked before being returned to Utah.
The booster fired today was more than seven years old -- the oldest RSRM ever fired. Shuttle motors are currently certified to be launched for up to five years after the propellant is cast. As a result of the test, ATK and NASA engineers will better understand what effect aging and exposure to different climates have on the motors.
Another main test objective is gathering data to aid in the development of the new Ares I vehicle and its launch pad. More than 20 microphones were installed at the test site to collect information that will help predict the lift-off acoustics for Ares I. By collecting acoustic environment measurements, engineers can make better predictions of how the sound will affect the surrounding area. The shuttle program uses massive sprayers, called the water deluge system, to reduce the acoustic effects of the space shuttle propulsion systems as it lifts off. A similar system is being developed for the Ares I and data collected from this test will play an important role in the final design.
"Ground test firings provide valuable data to ensure the reliability and safety of space shuttle motors," said Ron Dittemore, president ATK Launch Systems. "The ground tests also provide critical information needed for the development of the first stage of Ares I."

cIclops · 2008-05-05 05:51:20

NASA Videographer Blog - 4 May 2008

Tomorrow morning at 5AM the folks at ATK Launch Services will begin pouring the first of 47 large vats of the propellant...and that's only for 1 of the 5 Ares I stages.

NASA Videographer makes the Ares Quarterly Reports, the next one should be released this week - all the reports can be viewed here as youtube videos.

cIclops · 2008-05-09 01:09:10

NASA Successfully Completes First Series of Ares Engine Tests - 8 May 2008

STENNIS, Miss. -- NASA engineers Thursday successfully completed the first series of tests in the early development of the J-2X engine that will power the upper stages of the Ares I and Ares V rockets, key components of NASA's Constellation Program. Ares I will launch the Orion spacecraft that will take astronauts to the International Space Station and then to the moon by 2020. The Ares V will carry cargo and components into orbit for trips to the moon and later to Mars.
NASA conducted nine tests of heritage J-2 engine components from December to May as part of a series designed to verify heritage J-2 performance data and explore performance boundaries. Engineers at NASA's Stennis Space Center near Bay St. Louis, Miss., conducted the tests on a heritage J-2 "powerpack," which, in a fully assembled engine, pumps liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen into the engine's main combustion chamber to produce thrust. The test hardware consisted of J-2 components used from the Apollo program in the1960s through the X-33 program of the 1990s.
"This series of tests is an important step in development of the J-2X engine," said Mike Kynard, manager of the upper stage engine for the Ares Projects at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala. "We started with a number of objectives and questions we needed answers to as we work to complete designs of the J-2X engine. The data we have gained will be invaluable as we continue the design process."
Data obtained from the tests will be used to refine the design of the J-2X pumps and other engine components to provide the additional performance required of this new engine. The J-2X engine is being designed to produce 294,000 pounds of thrust; the original J-2 produced 230,000 pounds of thrust.
The main objectives of the series were to resolve differences in heritage turbopump performance data and recent component-level tests, and investigate vibration and pressure drops through the turbopump inlet ducts. Tests in the series ran for durations up to 400 seconds and at power levels up to 274,000 pounds of thrust.
After the data from the test series has been reviewed and objectives met, Stennis will begin readying the test stand for the next series of tests, said Gary Benton, the J-2X project manager at Stennis.

RedStreak · 2008-05-09 12:57:04

Splendid to hear about the testing. 8) I'm seeing posts about it all the place online.

RedStreak · 2008-05-09 13:00:33

Although not as spectacular as the J-2 testing, another element to the Ares-I systems made some news:

NASA Awards Contract For Ares I Mobile Launcher

NASA's Kennedy Space Center has awarded a contract to Hensel Phelps of Orlando, Fla., for the construction of the Ares I mobile launcher for the Constellation Program. Ares I is the rocket that will transport the Orion crew exploration vehicle, its crew and cargo to low Earth orbit. The contract includes an option for an additional Ares I mobile launcher.

cIclops · 2008-05-10 06:20:45

ATK engineer checking the mold for forming the forward segment of the 5 segment motor

From Ares Projects Quarterly Progress Report #8 - May 2008 - youtube video - 4:32 mins

Wind tunnel testing this quarter obtained data on the vehicle configuration with full protuberances on the model. These protuberances provided engineers with a more accurate idea of how aerodynamic forces will affect the vehicle during flight.
Work began this quarter on refurbishing Marshall's Dynamic Test Stand, used for vibration testing on both the Saturn rockets and the Space Shuttle. Crews began refitting the facility, removing structures used for the Space Shuttle and clearing the way for Ares. The main testing bay doors were lowered for the first time in two decades.
The Ares I-X first stage team is building the new forward structures that will connect the solid rocket motor to the upper stage. This work utilizes both conventional welding and state-of-the-art coordinate measuring to ensure that the parts are built in line with the original design.
At ATK, engineers began upgrading the T-97 test stand for use with the Ares five-segment solid rocket motors. The refurbished stand will withstand the greater thrust of the Ares motors, and will have additional instruments for measuring loads during testing.
Back at Marshall, engineers calibrated the load cells for the T-97 test stand to ensure the accuracy of the thrust measurements. These tests were intended to verify that the stand can take the load required for full-scale testing. The results were a success, with the load cells meeting all specified requirements for Ares testing.
Engineers at ATK performed a dry fit of the mold that will be used to shape the forward segment of the motor's solid propellant. The twelve fins of the core will determine the final shape of the solid rocket fuel in the motor. Tooling and process changes have been made for this procedure to improve performance of the motor as well as streamline the manufacturing process from previous Shuttle experience.
Manufacturing demonstrations continued this quarter for the gore panels of the upper stage liquid hydrogen tank dome. After being stretched and then cut to the right shape, thickness measurements are taken over the entire panel. Large discrepancies are ground away, and then the panel is dipped in a masking material. Lasers are being used to create a topographical "map" of the panel, and the masking material is cut away from thicker areas. The panel is then dipped in a caustic solution that dissolves excess metal. More of the mask is cut away and the process is repeated until the entire panel is of a uniform thickness. The final pieces were delivered this quarter for Marshall's world-class friction stir welding facility, with the arrival of a vertical weld tool and completion of the robotic weld tool assembly. These tools allow engineers to manufacture test hardware on-site, verifying procedures and materials before full-scale upper stage manufacturing begins at Michoud Assembly Facility in Louisiana.
Tests continued this quarter on the heritage S-IVB vent relief valves. The valves are pressurized using gaseous nitrogen and subjected to various flow rates to see how they react. Knowledge gained from these tests will help designers working on valves for the Ares I main propulsion system. Future testing will include cryogenic fluids for more "flight-like" results.
The J-2X engine team continued work on powerpack testing this quarter, with a series of test burns of increasing length. These tests will validate the performance of heritage hardware to help reduce early design risk on the J-2X and keep the development schedule on track.

Gregori · 2008-05-10 06:30:02

Forgive me, but I know nothing about these things but:

What are the big advantages of Ares I+V over the Saturn V?

cIclops · 2008-05-10 06:43:31

The Ares lunar transportation system will be much safer, more reliable, cheaper and provide more than double the capability of Saturn V.

Gregori · 2008-05-10 06:46:57

The Ares lunar transportation system will be much safer, more reliable, cheaper and provide more than double the capability of Saturn V.
Ares I can also be used to service ISS.

Okay!

How much cheaper?
Why is it more reliable?

cIclops · 2008-05-10 07:59:58

(i edited the last sentence after you quoted it)

It's not easy to get good cost numbers for the new system as it's a long way from being operational - Ares I is planned for 2015, Ares V for 2018 . Even a Saturn V is hard to put a price on. Costs are not just manufacturing, but also operations and of course the enormous development budget needed to design and test.

Basic cost for a Saturn V is quoted as $135million in 1967 dollars ($850m in 2007 dollars) An Ares I was said by NASA to cost about $200m and an Ares V between $200 and $400m. However these numbers do not reflect operations costs. It's a main design driver to reduce both types of costs. An Ares lunar mission ought to be fraction of the cost of an Apollo one.

Reliability is also difficult to put numbers on. Reliability is about launching on time and non fatal mission failures. Ares will benefit from far newer technology and many years of experience, and again reliability is one of its key design drivers. NASA are aiming for a significant improvement factor in reliability. Loss of Mission (LOM, crew survive) for Ares I is estimated at about 0.2% and 0.8% for Ares V. For comparison Soyuz and Shuttle LOM are estimated as 1%.

Gregori · 2008-05-10 08:04:17

Alright,

that seems pretty good.

cIclops · 2008-05-14 01:36:26

J-2X Moving Into CDR - 13 May 2008

Frank Morring, Jr./Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
NASA's J-2X rocket engine development project is moving into critical design review (CDR) with extensive data on the performance of its Saturn-heritage gas generator and turbomachinery, holding pace for first flight of the Ares I crew launch vehicle.
Engineers at Stennis Space Center, Miss., ran the last of nine hot-fire tests of an old J-2 powerpack May 8, firing the unit for 400.45 seconds and throttling it up and back to generate data points for the J-2X upgrade (Aerospace DAILY, May 9). The results - with Saturn-era J-2 turbomachinery pulled from the XRS-2200 linear aerospike engine Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne developed for Lockheed Martin's X-33 testbed - demonstrate the value of using old hardware to develop new.
"It certainly has been a great opportunity to get some early data at a fairly high level of assembly - it's not a full engine - that has really benefitted our design cycle prior to CDR," says Tom Byrd, deputy manager of the J-2X upper stage engine project. "It gives us a real leg up to know that we're starting with a mission-proven design that actually worked for moon missions. It tells us quite a bit about how that heritage design can then be modified for the J-2X."
That gives the Ares I project a leg up in developing the J-2X as its upper stage engine. The engine is considered the pacing item for the entire launch vehicle, although that may change if the Orion crew exploration vehicle development schedule slips to give engineers more time to develop weight-saving hardware (Aerospace DAILY, May 12).
So far, Byrd says, the engine project is on track to support a first flight in 2013. The hot-fire testing at the historic A-1 test stand at Stennis - built for Saturn V engine testing and used extensively by the space shuttle main engine (SSME) project - worked out kinks in the test setup that should smooth the second round of powerpack tests in April 2010 with flight-configuration inlet ducts and pumps.
While the original J-2 produced 230,000 pounds of thrust powering the upper stage of the Saturn V, the J-2X is intended to generate 294,000 pounds of thrust. Design of that upgraded hardware will draw on performance data from the test series just concluded to upgrade overall engine performance to meet the needs of the Ares I, which will deliver six astronauts to the International Space Station and - eventually - four to the first leg of a human return to the moon.
The J-2X project plans about 22 "Powerpack 2" tests with flight-configuration hardware in the spring of 2010, followed immediately by full-up J-2X engine tests. Some 200 full-up tests are planned, which makes test-stand efficiency key to bringing in a flight engine on time. To hasten the work, the J-2X project has an agreement with the SSME project to take over the A-2 stand at Stennis in July 2009 and begin refitting it for testing in tandem.
Already under construction at Stennis is a new A-3 test stand for simulated-altitude testing of the extended nozzle that the J-2X will carry to boost its specific impulse. It is scheduled to come on line in September 2010

cIclops · 2008-05-15 04:34:34

Visualization of Ares I-X on the partly converted pad 39B at KSC

Glenn hardware has key role in testing new rocket - 14 May 2008 - By Kevin Kelley

If all goes well, a piece of space hardware manufactured at the Glenn Research Center will launch just under a year from now.
That flight from the Kennedy Space Center in Florida will be the first test flight of the rocket system that will replace the space shuttle and return astronauts to the surface of the moon.
What exactly is Glenn’s contribution to this important test flight?
The tuna can.
At least that’s what it’s affectionately called on the Glenn campus.
The hardware’s true name is the upper stage mass simulator for the Ares I-X test flight. It’s called the “tuna can” because the simulator consists of several “tuna can”-like cylinders stacked on top of one another to substitute for the actual upper stage rocket that will be used in future launches.
Ares I is the crew launch vehicle that will send astronauts into orbit. The April 2009 launch will test the stability and flight dynamics of the solid rocket booster at the base of the Ares I.
“The purpose for the flight is to test the first stage flight of this solid rocket booster, which is a shuttle solid rocket booster that we are modifying for use on the Ares-I rocket,” said Vince Bilardo, Glenn’s project manager for the Ares I-X flight.
The suborbital flight will last a little more than two minutes, Bilardo said, and reach an altitude of 150,000 feet.
Glenn was given the responsibility to design, fabricate and test the upper stage simulator and deliver it to the Kennedy Space Center.
“It’s a very key flight because it will be the very first test flight of this new vehicle launch system,” Bilardo said.
Bilardo said the test flight will verify whether the booster can get the vehicle up to the point where the booster has completed its job.
“The key objective of this first test flight is ‘Can we control this long skinny rocket?’” Bilardo explained. The stacked tuna cans will simulate the weight distribution and shape of the real upper stage, he said.
About 300 sensors will be on board the simulator to measure vibrations, temperatures, thrust, acceleration and pressures, Bilardo said. Cameras will also be on board, he added.
Just under 200 Glenn employees worked on the upper stage simulator. $40 million was spent at Glenn on the simulator; a total of $350 million is being spent by NASA on the Ares I-X launch.
Therese Griebel, chief of Glenn’s Manufacturing Technology Division, said putting the upper stage simulator together has been challenging for her team.
The outer shell of each segment consists of two 10- by-30-foot pieces of carbon steel welded together, Griebel said. The welds had to be tested using radiographs and ultrasound, she added.
“The flanges (of each segment) have to be perfectly flat on top of each other,” Griebel said. Using lasers, workers achieved a degree of flatness of plus or minus one-ten-thousandths of an inch along the entire diameter of the can, she added.
Each segment is 18 feet wide. When fully assembled, the upper stage simulator will consist of 11 segments measuring 120 feet in height.
The simulator will not be recovered from the ocean following the Ares I test flight. A future test flight, called Ares I-Y and scheduled for 2012, will fly with a functional upper stage.

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#551 2008-04-16 08:58:18

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#552 2008-04-16 09:56:58

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#553 2008-04-16 10:29:03

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#554 2008-04-16 12:30:14

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#555 2008-04-16 12:34:44

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#556 2008-04-16 12:55:43

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#557 2008-04-16 14:51:16

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#558 2008-04-16 19:09:25

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#559 2008-04-17 09:15:54

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#560 2008-04-18 09:40:14

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#561 2008-04-18 11:43:14

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#562 2008-04-18 14:29:26

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#563 2008-05-03 01:56:21

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#564 2008-05-05 05:51:20

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#565 2008-05-09 01:09:10

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#566 2008-05-09 12:57:04

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#567 2008-05-09 13:00:33

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#568 2008-05-10 06:20:45

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#569 2008-05-10 06:30:02

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#570 2008-05-10 06:43:31

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#571 2008-05-10 06:46:57

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#572 2008-05-10 07:59:58

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#573 2008-05-10 08:04:17

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#574 2008-05-14 01:36:26

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#575 2008-05-15 04:34:34

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

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