Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

orionblade · 2003-01-15 14:05:01

simple fix: No kids on mars till there's air and grass.

I've done some calculations, and it should only take ten years to build a suitably breathable atmosphere on mars. It is entirely conceivable that one could truck in several hundred tons of water Ice, then electrolyse it into atmospheric oxygen, and truck in some nitrogen or extract it from regolith, producing a breatheable, albeit low pressure atmosphere within 2 years, and under greenhouse conditions, the whole planet could concievably warm up enough to release the remainder of its adsorbed carbon dioxide within a 10 year period. Mike Zubrin makes the claim that something on the order of 20 to 50 years would be required to get an atmosphere going just to support humans walking around (still with oxygen masks) at something like 8 or 10 psi. (in his book "The Case for Mars")

I think you could do it much faster than that, and without breaking anyone's budget. Also, if you wanted to quickly get some terraforming happening, simply take several "burn barrels" of dense hydrocarbon fuel and some form of oxidizer, burn them at the north or south poles to create a soot plume which would settle on the ice cap, and you instantly vaporize the polar caps with solar radiation. That's what happened in greenland a while back. A large volcano erupted, spewed dark ash over a large piece of ice sheet, and then the ice sheet melted under the dark ash, producing a lake on top of the ice, heated by extra solar radiation trapped by the soot. Then there was a flood when the water broke free, but on mars the flood would be CO2 gas, which would leave the soot where it was, on the surface, and it would simply fall onto subsequent layers of carbon dioxide ice.

With a quicker terraforming campaign, the idea of raising kids on mars becomes quite a bit more feasible, since you don't have to stay inside a hab 24/7.

clark · 2003-01-16 10:02:04

I've done some calculations, and it should only take ten years to build a suitably breathable atmosphere on mars.

I'll bite. What calculations demonstrate a human breathable atmosphere on Mars in 10 years?

Planetary projects like you are suggesting have never been attempted. There is no experience in this endeavour, and the amount of infrastructue neccessary to accomplish this would take you well outside of any ten year plan.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-01-24 04:34:44

I agree with Clark.
I don't know for sure how long it might take to create an 8-10 psi CO2 atmosphere on Mars, but if Dr. Robert Zubrin says 20 to 50 years, I'm not prepared to argue with him!

However, creating a breathable atmosphere is entirely a different matter. Trucking in "several hundred tons of water Ice" and electrolysing it would have no measurable effect on the Martian atmosphere. If you'd said several hundred billion tons ... well, that might be a beginning!
In any event, there's way more water than that on Mars anyhow - no need for any trucking.

There's also the problem of releasing too much CO2 into the atmosphere to bolster the pressure. Human tolerance of CO2 is very limited.
But CO2 may well be all we have to build an atmosphere on Mars. The nitrogen inventory seems likely to be quite low, and it looks like the O2 inventory in the regolith might only be released (if it can be released at all) by methods which will release huge quantities of CO2 at the same time. i.e. By wetting it. (And wetting the regolith will itself require liberating large volumes of CO2 in order to create a greenhouse effect to warm the surface! )
And it doesn't make two cents worth of difference how much O2 you have in the air if you have even a few percent of CO2 mixed with it, because it won't be a breathable atmosphere.

I'd love to believe we could have breathable air on Mars in only 10 years, but I just can't see how it can be done.

Scott G. Beach · 2003-01-26 14:52:15

I don't know anything about the "kibbutz" system...

See "Children of the Kibbutz: A Study in Child Training and Personality," by Melford E. Spiro.

"If the main tasks of social anthropology are the construction and testing of theories which explain social and cultural systems, it is scientific folly to neglect the central role of personality in maintaining sociocultural stability and in promoting sociocultural change."

Scott Beach · 2022-07-24 05:38:45

A paper titled "MarsKibu" was "Presented to The Mars Society" in April of 2019.

MarsKibu - Presented to The Mars Society, April 2019
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Re … ociety.pdf

Here is the "Introduction" to the "MarsKibu" paper...

Introduction

As mankind stretches its frontiers into outer space, Mars may become the focus of our endeavors. Human missions to Mars will gradually be replaced by larger exploratory groups, which will pave the way to settlement on the Red Planet. The Mars New Kibbutz (MarsKibu) concept design to settle 1000 people on Mars can lead to a self-sustained environment in terms of energy, water, food, and waste management. The MarsKibu will generate value from Earth space tourism and use the resources generated to acquire necessary earth goods for the operation of the Mars habitat. The inhabitants will enjoy high quality of life, stemming from a social support system, medical care, and leisure facilities. All these are accompanied by a strong sense of mission shared by our first Mars inhabitants. Our habitat is governed as a direct social democracy, with all inhabitants possessing equal voting rights. Elected officials serving in expert panels manage our habitat on the day-to-day operational basis. As with the great explorers of Earth, our inhabitants will bring forth a message of hope and faith in humanity’s ability to overcome obstacles. As on Earth – so, too, on Mars the establishment of a new social democracy settlement society on Mars, which is a separate community that maintains an independent and cooperative society of its members, will be organized based on a common partnership on the property and its objectives, research work, equality and cooperation in all fields of production, consumption, health and education.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-24 05:54:06

For Scott re returning this topic to view ... I read through post #15, before I had to break off due to time limits ... This was a ** very ** interesting topic ... Clark was in full sarcastic mode.

I'm planning to return later to finish review of the topic.

(th)

Scott Beach · 2022-07-31 12:08:31

The paper titled "MarsKibu" was "Presented to The Mars Society" in April of 2019. According to that paper, MarsKibu will be "governed as a direct social democracy".

"The Mars New Kibbutz (MarsKibu) concept design to settle 1000 people on Mars can lead to a self-sustained environment in terms of energy, water, food, and waste management. The MarsKibu will generate value from Earth space tourism and use the resources generated to acquire necessary earth goods for the operation of the Mars habitat. The inhabitants will enjoy high quality of life, stemming from a social support system, medical care, and leisure facilities. All these are accompanied by a strong sense of mission shared by our first Mars inhabitants. Our habitat is governed as a direct social democracy, with all inhabitants possessing equal voting rights".

A social democracy "is a political, social, and economic philosophy within socialism that supports political and economic democracy. As a policy regime, it is described by academics as advocating economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal-democratic polity and a capitalist-oriented mixed economy. The protocols and norms used to accomplish this involve a commitment to representative and participatory democracy, measures for income redistribution, regulation of the economy in the general interest, and social welfare provisions". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Would you want to live in a martian settlement that practices "direct social democracy"? If not, what form of government do you favor?

Scott

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-31 12:36:01

For Scott Beach re #67

Your reminder of the kibbutz model reminds ** me ** that I've lost track of how Israel has evolved over time.

Does the kibbutz model still exist there? My impression was that this way of managing life was needed during early years when challenges were almost insurmountable. I'm wondering if the need for the benefits of the kibbutz have faded as wealth and security have increased?

Clark seemed to have been taking a dim view of the model when I left off reading, and I've not had time to return.

You are working with only a tiny population of active members right now.

It's possible no one else is interested in even thinking about the topic, let alone thinking ** seriously **!!!

It may be up to you to carry the load as far as you feel inspired.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-02 02:37:13

Mars mission inspires growing fan base back in China
https://infotel.ca/newsitem/as-sci-chin … p446345880

some older articles

'Australia's education system: how do we compare with the rest of the world?'
https://www.smh.com.au/education/austra … rhxcu.html

Children of the Sun is a 2007 documentary film about the Israeli kibbutz directed by Ran Tal
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1093814/

Singapore schools: 'The best education system in the world' putting significant stress on young children
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-06/ … en/6831964

Some Hindu areas of India seem to have an amazing education system but there is also this massive culture poverty gap between rich and poor perhaps due to influence of the caste system.

SpaceNut · 2022-09-02 12:49:29

well, if I have grass, then I am going to need a lawn mower.

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#51 2003-01-15 14:05:01

Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

#52 2003-01-16 10:02:04

Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

#53 2003-01-24 04:34:44

Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

#54 2003-01-26 14:52:15

Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

#55 2022-07-24 05:38:45

Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

#56 2022-07-24 05:54:06

Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

#57 2022-07-31 12:08:31

Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

#58 2022-07-31 12:36:01

Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

#59 2022-09-02 02:37:13

Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

#60 2022-09-02 12:49:29

Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

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