Real images of Mars

cIclops · 2008-04-23 06:50:29

For all the folks, old and young, who won't live enough to see a permanent base on Mars, the next best thing are these images. Try the big panoramic 3D ones with glasses. If you can hang on to 2010 there will be HD TV from the new rover - now that should add even more realism!

With current funding levels Mike Griffin recently estimated the first permanent base will be established about the year 2100, so just about everyone reading this forum right now won't get to see it. That's why we all need to push for more funding!

cIclops · 2008-04-23 06:56:41

Disappearing Dunes (MRO/HiRISE) - imaged 20 Mar 2008

More details, images and text

More than 10 percent of the surface area north of 65 degrees North on Mars has some type of cover by windblown sand dunes. This HiRISE image shows large barchan (crescent-shaped), barchanoid and some smaller dome-shaped dunes.
The image is of a location where the first significant change to sand dunes was reported on Mars (Bourke et al, 2008). That study used a time series of MOC images taken over a period of three Mars years and showed that two 20 meter-wide dome dunes disappeared and a third shrank by an estimated 15 percent. The HiRISE image confirms that the dune forms no longer exist but, interestingly, suggests that the sediment removal is ongoing as the third dune has been reduced in volume.
Other, larger dunes in the location do not show apparent change: more time or more precise measurements to display evidence of change is needed. Alternately, the sediment in the larger dunes may be unavailable for transport at the present time due to induration. Nevertheless, the change observed in the small dome dunes indicates that not all dunes on Mars are effectively stabilized and immobile.

cIclops · 2008-04-23 14:38:19

Vincent, your comments are increasingly incomprehensible and OT please moderate them or they will be moderated. Furthermore, please do not repost images for no reason.

As promised, your replies have been moderated. Keep on topic or take it to Free Chat

cIclops · 2008-04-25 00:11:56

Layered Sediments in Hellas Planitia (MRO/HiRISE) - imaged 27 Mar 2008

More Imgaes and details

This image shows outcrops of light-toned layered rocks in the northern part of Hellas Planitia, the floor of a massive, ancient impact crater.
The floor of Hellas includes the lowest parts of the Martian surface, and has been proposed as the site of ancient lakes or seas.
The layers show some variations in color and brightness, alternating between light and dark material. The bright layers are extensively fractured into angular boulders and blocks, while the dark layers appear relatively smooth, although this could be due in part to sand or dust covering them. This alternation also appears to correspond to stairstep-like topography in places, suggesting that some layers are more resistant to erosion than others. However, in other areas, the slope is relatively constant.
Light-toned layered rocks are found in many sites on Mars, including much of the north rim of Hellas. They could have been deposited in many ways: volcanic ash, wind-blown sand, river or lake deposits. The occurrence of some of these around the edge of the deep floor of Hellas raises the possibility that these layers were deposited on the floor of an ancient lake, but other mechanisms are also possible.

cIclops · 2008-04-28 09:25:56

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cIclops · 2008-04-28 09:31:12

3D topographic map of the North Polar Region (MGO/MOLA) - data aquired 1998

More details

The topographic map reveals that the ice cap is about 750 miles (1,200 kilometers) across, with a maximum thickness of 1.8 miles (3 kilometers). The cap is cut by canyons and troughs that plunge to as deep as 0.6 miles (1 kilometer) beneath the surface. "Similar features do not occur on any glacial or polar terrain on Earth," said Dr. Maria Zuber of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD. "They appear to be carved by wind and evaporation of ice."
The MOLA data also reveal that large areas of the ice cap are extremely smooth, with elevations that vary by only a few feet over many miles. In some areas the ice cap is surrounded by large mounds of ice, tens of miles across and up to half a mile in height. "These structures appear to be remnants of the cap from a time when it was larger than at present," Zuber said. Impact craters surrounding the cap appear to be filled with ice and dust that was either deposited by wind or condensation, or perhaps remains from an earlier period when the ice cap was larger.
The shape of the polar cap indicates that it is composed primarily of water ice, with a volume of 300,000 cubic miles (1.2 million cubic kilometers). The cap has an average thickness of 0.64 miles (1.03 kilometers) and covers an area 1.5 times the size of Texas. For comparison, the volume of the Martian north polar cap is less than half that of the Greenland ice cap, and about four percent of the Antarctic ice sheet.
The estimated volume of the north ice cap is about 10 times less than the minimum volume of an ancient ocean that some scientists believe once existed on Mars. If a large body of water once existed on the red planet, the remainder of the water must presently be stored below the surface and in the much smaller south polar cap, or have been lost to space. But such a large amount of unaccounted-for water is not easily explained by current models of Martian evolution.

Vincent · 2008-04-28 10:01:23

The topographic map reveals that the ice cap is about 750 miles (1,200 kilometers) across, with a maximum thickness of 1.8 miles (3 kilometers). The cap is cut by canyons and troughs that plunge to as deep as 0.6 miles (1 kilometer) beneath the surface. "Similar features do not occur on any glacial or polar terrain on Earth," said Dr. Maria Zuber of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD. "They appear to be carved by wind and evaporation of ice."

Well duh, tell the good doctor to talk to Vincent. Mars is not like Earth. Either the caps are in retreat do to solar change or sublimation in the current environment or not. She or he has no foothold on the current meteorlogic state of Mars. This is my area do not go there. I is the weatherman.

Without a baseline it is speculation.

Vincent

cIclops · 2008-04-28 10:38:50

Mars is not like Earth. Either the caps are in retreat do to solar change or sublimation in the current environment or not. She or he has no foothold on the current meteorlogic state of Mars.

First note that text was written in 1998, also that polar features are not primarily the result of meteorological processes but climatological ones.

Second, sublimation is not a factor on Earth whereas on Mars it seems to be quite significant. Solar change appears to be quite small over thousands of years or longer. The main factor driving climate on Mars is its highly eccentric orbit.

Vincent · 2008-04-28 11:01:43

Oh dear cIclops,

Glad to have you exchange ideas about Mars weather with the weatherman.

First note that text was written in 1998,

Why you want to post old data I have no idea.

also that polar features are not primarily the result of meteorological processes but climatological ones.

Tell me the difference brother.

Second, sublimation is not a factor on Earth whereas on Mars it seems to be quite significant

Show me your ignorance

Solar change appears to be quite small over thousands of years or longer.

Give me the data source.

Lets see, they say 6 degrees on Earth will starve man. I could go on and on about global warming but as you said, “Post it in the right spot.”

T

he main factor driving climate on Mars is its highly eccentric orbit.

Glade you know the truth brother. Now you can tell us all

Do not fret, not many people can talk to me about Mars weather.

Vincent

Vincent · 2008-04-28 11:56:11

This song is for you cIclops. Talk to a scientist. You guys like to play, so do we.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkvLq0TYiwI

Vincent

cIclops · 2008-04-28 12:54:28

Why such an old image? Because it was the first 3D reconstruction of the North Polar region based on real data, and it looks nice

The difference between meteorological and climatological processes is just one of definition. Short term local effects from the day night cycle such as dust devils and storms are classified as weather related. Long term global effects that cause changes to the formation of the polar cap are called climatic as they are driven by long term orbital variations.

Where does sublimation occur on Earth?

Evidence for the lack of significant solar variabily comes from direct measurement of Total Solar Irradiance. The 30 years of data show a variation in TSI of less than 1%. Reconstructions indicate there is a 100 year cycle, again within 1%. For evidence to support for stability over much longer periods of time see this abstract. The Sun appears to be the most stable part of Earth's environment.

Discussions about global warming on Earth should be in Free Chat or Science and Technology. Thanks.

Vincent · 2008-04-28 13:21:16

cIclops,

You did what we call a crash and burn. You got you a scientist. Lets do it.

Why such an old image? Because it was the first 3D reconstruction of the North Polar region based on real data, and it looks nice.

That’s not cool. Do not go real data on me.

The difference between meteorological and climatological processes is just one of definition.

Well duh, the weather today is just that. The weather tomorrow is climatology. Oh dear lord we are talking weather.

Short term local effects from the day night cycle such as dust devils and storms are classified as weather related.

Sorry could not resist, “No shit.”

Long term global effects such as changes to the formation of the polar cap are called climatic as they are related to long term orbital variations

.

Give me the data brother

Evidence for the lack of significant solar variabily comes from direct measurement of Total Solar Irradiance

On the bull shit meter that is a 10

The 30 years of data show a variation in TSI of less than 1%.

I hope so

Reconstructions indicate there is a 100 year cycle.

Another 100 percent on the bull shit meter

again within 1%. For evidence to support for stability over much longer periods of time see this abstract. The Sun appears to be the most stable part of Earth's environment.

Again this is 100 percent on the bull shit meter

Edit if you must. This is fun.

Vincent

Vincent · 2008-04-28 16:26:36

Do not think I am weak when in reality I am. I have kicked around on Mars with some good men.

Winston or LWS from the Mars rover blog knows. And Henry is the greatest.

Henry can talk to anyone and pick their brain. A damn fine man

Needless to say they was some geologist. Dust guys I say. Ben was a good one. we never saw eye to eye

Vincent

Let this stand

cIclops · 2008-04-30 17:11:10

South polar layered deposits (MEX/MARSIS & MRO/SHARA) radiograms )

Two Radar Sounders Examine South Polar Layered Deposits on Mars - 17 Apr 2008

Two complementary radar sounder instruments work together to discover hidden Martian secrets. They are the Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding (MARSIS) on the European Space Agency's Mars Express orbiter and the Shallow Subsurface Radar (SHARAD) on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.
MARSIS was designed to penetrate deep and it has delivered on its promise. This figure shows the base of Mars' south polar layered deposits at the deepest recorded point of 3.7 kilometer (2.3 miles).
In contrast, SHARAD was designed as a high-resolution radar for a maximum penetration of 1 kilometer (0.6 mile) has difficulty detecting the base of these layered deposits.

Vincent · 2008-05-01 08:52:28

Sunset Gusev Crater Mars 8/9/05 HortonHeardawho

Vincent

Vincent · 2008-05-01 09:41:36

Rant 1or 2 or 3

Now for those that do not know me I am a weatherman. My first love is atmospheric sciences. Earth is a dynamic place. That’s why when I read captions on Mars images about sublimation is more important on Mars than Earth I get jazzed up.

First of all over 70 percent of the Earths atmosphere, estimate, is below 0c and melting is not the primary process of phase change. I do not mind when people like me or other people that post on Mars forums make mistakes but if you are going to caption MRO images and have a PHD please know what you are talking about. It hurts my feelings.

Now it is bad enough that we get jpegs in every filter with no base line and limited thermal data but we got to have PHD’s that are ignorant.

Now I posted a response to such a caption on this thread. Maybe this is not the place to respond. I challenged cIclopes about it and got ignored. That’s OK. If we just want to believe every thing we are told.

Note, Your image about defrosting dunes has been changed in the April 30 release. They now acknowledge that the process is like the Southern Hemisphere Fans.

http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_007801_2610

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

Vincent

cIclops · 2008-05-01 10:22:00

First of all over 70 percent of the Earths atmosphere, estimate, is below 0c and melting is not the primary process of phase change.
Now I posted a response to such a caption on this thread. Maybe this is not the place to respond. I challenged cIclopes about it and got ignored. That’s OK. If we just want to believe every thing we are told.
Note, Your image about defrosting dunes has been changed in the April 30 release. They now acknowledge that the process is like the Southern Hemisphere Fans.
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_007801_2610

Thanks for the information about sublimation occurring in the Earth's atmosphere.

That defrosting dunes image and text you refer to hasn't been posted here, but feel free to add it and comment.

Vincent · 2008-05-01 10:48:33

cIclops,

Now it would be a cool thing to number the post for this reason. Otherwise I got to say the post posted 4/11/08 7:27 pm. Located here

http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic … &start=120

The caption was,

The dunes and surrounding surface appear bright because they are covered with seasonal frost left over from the northern hemisphere winter. Sunlight is now falling on the north polar region, and carbon dioxide frost that accumulated during winter is sublimating (going directly from solid to gas) and the surface beneath the frost is being revealed. Composed primarily of basaltic sand, the dunes will appear dark during the northern hemisphere summer. The dark spots are areas where some of this frost has begun to sublime away, and/or where wind has exposed the underlying dark sand.

The same process 4-30-08

Link

http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_007801_2610

caption

As Mars’ northern hemisphere enters into spring and begins to warm, the carbon dioxide sublimates (turns directly from a solid to a gas). The carbon dioxide sublimates in surprising ways, with trapped gas bursting through the ice in jets that leave dark streaks when the wind is blowing

Now that’s more like it or more better as we say down south.

PS:

cIclopes said

“Thanks for the information about sublimation occurring in the Earth's atmosphere.”

Anything you need to know about the Earths atmosphere just ask. I am here to help.

Vincent

cIclops · 2008-05-01 11:15:06

Each post can be linked directly, just copy the link from the little symbol just in front of the "Posted: ....." date timestamp.

Assuming you are referring to this image and text, this is at 84°N 1°E whereas the image and text you refer to are at 81°N 200°E - a long way from there.

Vincent · 2008-05-01 11:33:24

I do remember reading sublimation is a more important process than on Earth. The truth is I read so much I may have got confused as to the post.

The general idea is the same but in your defense it may not have been here. I think what I was wanting to here is what I heard on the last MRO caption.

Maybe we can look at too many Mars sites and get confused. I think it was just a caption thing and you may not be totally at fault. I never post a caption I do not agree with. Be careful with that.

This was written before your last post. I was giving you an out. 3 degrees north in this environment is not an excuse for change of process. I expect better of you. You are talking to the weatherman.

Vincent

cIclops · 2008-05-02 02:29:19

3 degrees north in this environment is not an excuse for change of process.

Those sites are also on opposite sides of the planet, even at 80° latitude this means they are about 1000 kms apart. Perhaps even more importantly they are two months apart in time.

(BTW messages can be deleted by clicking the little X next to the edit button)

Vincent · 2008-05-03 09:08:12

cIclops said:

Those sites are also on opposite sides of the planet, even at 80° latitude this means they are about 1000 kms apart. Perhaps even more importantly they are two months apart in time.

Seasons on Mars are twice as long as on Earth so 2 months would be like 1 month on Earth for duration of process window. Latitude is king on Mars because they are no oceans or currents to change any meso-scale event from a geographic induced longitudinal prospective.

By the way, my edit x button is located together on my screen and I can not delete.

Vincent

Vincent · 2008-05-03 11:08:45

Now me and cIclops could argue things in detail , but I believe it is caption that I deplore.

Even the Great Hort put this image up 11/21/06. Low clouds he said. In reality they are high clouds. We all Make mistakes brother. I am the weatherman. Hort is a great image man but he aint no weatherman. Let this be a lesson to us all.

Vincent

cIclops · 2008-05-04 04:13:51

By the way, my edit x button is located together on my screen and I can not delete.

Then something is probably wrong with your browser, try using a different one, Firefox is highly recommended.

When it's working properly please delete all your OT messages, they add nothing but confusion to this topic. Thanks.

Vincent · 2008-05-05 10:54:50

What does OT mean. Is that my ignorant response. That would be IR. Get your geeks in line.

Vincent

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Re: Real images of Mars

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Re: Real images of Mars

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Re: Real images of Mars

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Re: Real images of Mars

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Re: Real images of Mars

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Re: Real images of Mars

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Re: Real images of Mars

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Re: Real images of Mars

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Re: Real images of Mars

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Re: Real images of Mars

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