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:oops: Just realized I'd wrote about Aerocapture on the Moon. :oops:
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Use what is abundant and build to last
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:oops: Just realized I'd wrote about Aerocapture on the Moon. :oops:
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Direct landing on the Moon, no stop in orbit, with propulsive landing and legs with shock absorbers. It would look much like the Apollo lunar module only bigger.
But you can use aerocapture to enter Earth orbit. If you don't intend to re-enter Earth's atmosphere, aerocapture and aerobraking can be relatively gentle. No need for an extreme heat shield, instead an umbrella made of Nextel 440 fabric. That's the fabric NASA used for their DurAFRSI thermal blankets. The thermal blankets currently used on the shuttle are AFRSI, this new one isn't even in service yet. It can handle more heat than AFRSI but not as much as black tiles. DurAFRSI was supposed to be tested/demonstrated on the X-37, to be launched by the space shuttle in 2002 or 2003, but never happened. They did conduct a drop test to verify its landing ability, dropped by WhiteKnight, the aircraft built to launch SpaceShipOne. But Nextel 440 has been demonstrated in ovens to handle a lot of heat. DurAFRSI has been extensively tested in the lab.
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:oops: That was actually what I meant when I wrote about aerocapture. :oops:
Use what is abundant and build to last
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Robert -
So you are saying we can have a "taxi" service to a reusable lunar lander that goes into LEO? Fuelling of the lunar lander takes place on the moon.
Seems like not a bad solution to me. So you are just lifting essentially the people (with some resupply material) to LEO.
Would mean of course a rocket fuel facility on the moon would be a top priority.
How difficult would it be to make rocket fuel on moon? How much would we need for say a three person lander with a ten tonne payload to do a round trip from moon to LEO?
I know regolith to oxygen machines have been developed.
What would be the best fuel for lunar manufacture?
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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Todays research is being reposted from skype as converting propane
appliances to hydrogen is just one of the steps to making what I
would call level one priority of insitu made items, product or life
support. http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/codes_algs/ … /version1/ is
a solar power pv panel wattage calculator granted it is for Earth but
it is one that can be altered for Mars.
In several threads on Red Colony before the site started
having issues mostly Louis and I had worked on how to build
infrastruture tools as part of self replication or the creation of
larger ones from small ones. http://www.lindsaybks.com is a site
with technical books for experimenters, inventors, tinkerers,
mad scientists, and "Thomas-Edison-types." Some of this is what I
would call level 2 for insitu use and creation. So keeping on that
thought we will need to learn how to make lots of other stuff so a
http://www.madehow.com/index.html is as close as to getting a user
manual for making what we need for mars... from soap to ....
So a list of what is need by priority from insitu I think is in
order....
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Space Nut -
I agree. We need more of "can do" approach applied to ISRU. If you look on the internet, on You Tube and other sites, you can find many examples of people undertake very sophisticated manufacturing and processing operations at home. If it can be done at home it can certianly be done on the Moon and Mars with the backing of billion dollar programme.
I agree with you as well that we need to think of this in terms of different levels or stages of production. Level 1 is indeed the top priority life support level: we need energy, water, heat, air, and food. You could add shelter but I think for the initial colony it is more straightforward to take the habitat with you, as an inflatable which can be entrenched and covered in regolith to give v. good radiation protection.
Level 2 would to my way of thinking be focussed on servicing or facilitating a lot of level 1 - so you will be thinking in terms of chemical batteries, motors, wiring, cabling, pipes, gas holders, hydroponic equipment, tools etc . Level 2 is where you get into generalised raw material sourcing - stockpiling various metal ores and ceramic material.
Level 3 - is where you move into more advanced products: simple vehicles, furniture, glass products, construction materials, a range of tools, spare parts for the CNC and other machines.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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Level one: That's easy. Peaks of eternal lights give us the energy for electricity and growing crops, possibility of water is a bonus.
Use what is abundant and build to last
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I think much of a Large Lunar settlement can be probably built by robots, controlled from Earth.
If we could get a Tunnel Boring Machine to the Lunar Surface, A Large Hole could be Drilled into the Side of a Mountain/Crater and serve as a the start of a base. This way, we don't have to look for potential Lava Tubes for Protection - we create the Ideal Space for ourselves.
The Base would be constructed inside by reinforcing the Tunnel and Sealing it off.
More and More Tunnels could be built and possibly interconnected.
Manufacturing facilities could potentially be built in such tunnels, Tunnel Boring Machines can have diametres of 20m.
I think the current plans for the Lunar Habitat is something like the small modules used for ISS?
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I think the current plans for the Lunar Habitat is something like the small modules used for ISS?
Those are early requirement studies, I hope. Otherwise it will be the ISS all over again.
Now if we modify a Ares V core and a couple EDS stages, and furnish the interior, we can finish off a base capable of supporting a large crew on one pole in about a year and move on to other Lunar targets.
"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane
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If we use a tunnel boring machine, we could build a much bigger facility than either a resused rocket core or a ISS module. It would also be shielded from radiation.
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A tunnel boring machine also takes an incredible amount of manpower and spare parts to operate on Earth. It will be a long time before one is functioning on the moon.
With a minimal of equipment, we could melt lunar silica in to masonry and build regolith structures for or over our habs for the same effect.
With a little bit of preplanning, we can robotically cannibalize our Altairs decent tanks into a mini base after we go, and have them covered with bricks when we return.
"Yes, I was going to give this astronaut selection my best shot, I was determined when the NASA proctologist looked up my ass, he would see pipes so dazzling he would ask the nurse to get his sunglasses."
---Shuttle Astronaut Mike Mullane
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A machine capable of boring multiple explosive holes would speed things up a bit without requiring the complexity of a full TBM.
I cannot remember the name of the thing or find any references, but I will keep looking.
Come on to the Future
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A tunnel boring machine also takes an incredible amount of manpower and spare parts to operate on Earth. It will be a long time before one is functioning on the moon.
With a minimal of equipment, we could melt lunar silica in to masonry and build regolith structures for or over our habs for the same effect.
With a little bit of preplanning, we can robotically cannibalize our Altairs decent tanks into a mini base after we go, and have them covered with bricks when we return.
Maybe so..
We could design an advanced automated/or semi automated version that requires less maintenance, or simply ship it with the spare parts.
Making masonry bricks and covering the settlement with bricks will also take a lot of time and manpower.
The advantage of TBM is the large size of facility you can create in a relatively short amount of time. While it might not be used for initial outpost, it could be a model for future lunar settlements and basic manufacturing facilities.
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Well we could bore tunnels and we could cinterise the regolith to layer over metal habitats.
But if we want a quick, cheap, safe and effective solution to creating habitat nothing to my mind beats an inflatable placed inside a trench and covered in a large mound of regolith. This only requires a mini digger to achieve. Depending on the condition of the regolith, some cintering might be desirable.
That should be possible using solar reflectors. However, if it can be avoided, all the better.
I am not sure, but I have a feeling trench digging may actually be easier on Mars than on the Moon.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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Well we could bore tunnels and we could cinterise the regolith to layer over metal habitats.
But if we want a quick, cheap, safe and effective solution to creating habitat nothing to my mind beats an inflatable placed inside a trench and covered in a large mound of regolith. This only requires a mini digger to achieve. Depending on the condition of the regolith, some cintering might be desirable.
That should be possible using solar reflectors. However, if it can be avoided, all the better.I am not sure, but I have a feeling trench digging may actually be easier on Mars than on the Moon.
You get very small and fragile facilities with that. Thats fine for an intial landing.
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Why are they fragile? I'd say they could last for a long, long time. The only weathering they will be subject to will be frost damage.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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All that we need to make cinterized blocks is a way to focus a lot of heat onto a mold to form the block we want. It works on the natural regolith to our favour.
We can do that with a series of mirrors. It is one of the easiest construction methods on the Moon
Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.
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Why are they fragile? I'd say they could last for a long, long time. The only weathering they will be subject to will be frost damage.
Fine for a small research habitat, but questionable if we want to create a industrial facility there. Any inflatable materials is going to wear down and tear and leak air.
If we want a large facility suitable for heavy industries, Bore huge tunnels in to the Moon near the peaks of eternal light. These will be a lot sturdier, spacier, suitable for a large amount of people. they could also provide a good transport solution
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Gregori -
You say: "any inflatable material is going to wear down and tear and leak air".
Well where's the evidence for that. If you are talking about microscopic leakage, well that's not a problem since we are not talking about self-contained biosphere: we will be manufacturing air.
But wear and tear? How quickly? If the inflatable is in a covered trench and the surrounding regolith takes most of the pressure strain on the material, I really don't see a great deal of scope for wear and tear, given we will be using state of the art materials.
What is your view of the Bigelow enterprise? Are you saying their structures will quickly deflate? My understanding is that the one in space is still doing fine after (some? a couple of?) years.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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Just throw energy at the problem, we'll have loads.
Use what is abundant and build to last
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Gregori -
You say: "any inflatable material is going to wear down and tear and leak air".
Well where's the evidence for that. If you are talking about microscopic leakage, well that's not a problem since we are not talking about self-contained biosphere: we will be manufacturing air.
But wear and tear? How quickly? If the inflatable is in a covered trench and the surrounding regolith takes most of the pressure strain on the material, I really don't see a great deal of scope for wear and tear, given we will be using state of the art materials.
What is your view of the Bigelow enterprise? Are you saying their structures will quickly deflate? My understanding is that the one in space is still doing fine after (some? a couple of?) years.
My hunch tells me that al materials, esp elastic materials tear and break down producing loads of leaks that will have to be constantly repaired. Lunar enviroment is full of sharp electrostatic dust that will get inside the facility and cause abrasion. This will means constantly repairing leaks.
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No I don't accept that. Obviously designers will plan for that. One of the key factors in operating on the moon or Mars will be the need for dust control. There are ways of dealing with that. But the fact that a particle is abrasive does not of itself means that tears will result. There are ways round this which we will be able to investigate. We might oil the fabric for instance. But I 'd prefer to leave it to the experts in companies like Bigelow.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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No I don't accept that. Obviously designers will plan for that. One of the key factors in operating on the moon or Mars will be the need for dust control. There are ways of dealing with that. But the fact that a particle is abrasive does not of itself means that tears will result. There are ways round this which we will be able to investigate. We might oil the fabric for instance. But I 'd prefer to leave it to the experts in companies like Bigelow.
They will result and the plan will be to patch and repair. Dust shards will fly around everywhere and stick to things. I'd prefer to leave it to the experts at NASA.
A tunnel carved into rock will be much sturdier and better for a permanent base and manufacturing facility.
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gregori -
Obviously a shard is not going to wear down hard plastic. That's one option for space suits.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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gregori -
Obviously a shard is not going to wear down hard plastic. That's one option for space suits.
no, billions of shards will though. Everything breaks down over time, esp elastic materials. Its not just the shards that are going to cause wear and tear. Just operating in the base is going to cause it, esp if you are working with industrial materials and machines.
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