Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

George H · 2003-01-08 15:30:35

Let me throw the proverbial moneky wrench into this scenerio:
Will people be able to, or would it be practical, to allow parents the choice of opting out the kibbituz program?
*If it were agreed upon beforehand by the majority that such a system would be in place, though an option for "outing" was officially available, opting out would still be severely frowned upon...and those opting out would face the chance of social ostracization as a result.
So Clark raises a really good point. What social repercussions would result for Marsians opting out of this or that, if various systems are set up and attempted to be enforced?

Well Clark & Cindy have some good points here. Since there's no such thing as true social freedom.......well future colonists or settlers, whatever, better think it through. Cindy I'm surprised you could still be even a bit pro-social after that experience. Or any-one else for that matter.

George H · 2003-01-08 15:34:23

Social groups have lots and lots of methods for enforcing conformity that are utterly unspoken and unwritten - many times those "enforcing" conformity are not even consciously aware of what they are doing.

And those are the first one's to squeal on & on about individualism and free will, be your own person....like they are the epitome of those things or something. Hypocrites.

kapito · 2003-01-10 16:53:48

First of all, I want to say that is wonderful to see so many respondents who are honest and forthright.

I think it is important not to poison the well, however. To restate what I have said in a manner which was not written serves little purpose, other than to force others (and myself) to restate what is already placed in black and white.

That said....

Many American settlers approached "the New World" believing that they were going to live in communities wherein they could brandish their own unique beliefs without those around who disagreed "getting in the way". Many came believing that the moral stances they inherited from Dutch, English and other cultures would work just fine, with a little weeding, tree-cutting and vegetable farming. Others approached what would become our land with the unique vision of freedom, of a blank canvas, Rousseau on a grand, natural scale. In each case, those that had inhabited the land for over 10,000 years (at least) and had adapted a culture unique to it were swept aside as "savages."

Phew. Abridged history lesson for those who already know the story.

What will be doing? With which of the aforementioned belief systems will we approach this "New World"? The earliest inhabitants on Mars will be uniquely conforming adults, studied, prodded and poked, interviewed adinfinitum to ensure no "instabilities which will negatively affect the Mars Mission." And why not? Did ancient voyagers to North America make it with a boatload of "rugged individualists", or individuals who still rowed after long months of traveling, because they were afraid of getting whipped or thrown overboard?

The "savages" of Mars will be the landscape, the inescapable burden that one failed component (back-ups aside) can kill. (Sometimes what breaks a machine also breaks its backup.) Peter reminded me in an e-mail the cold, hard fact that Earth is six months away. I believe that was how long the journey back to European soil was as well. Eventually, those individuals who have been poked and prodded and interviewed adinfinitum will feel the same alienation as the earliest settlers of America. Attachments to terran authority will eventually dissolve, as well and "mission creep" will occur. How long will it be before Martians decide that they will do things in their own manner? When your communications gear goes out, leaving you alone, and a massive rupture in the hydroponic room's shielding occurs, you quickly develop a sarcasm toward "King George" (so to speak), comfortably on his throne back home.

Peter (and I thank him for his comments) describes a methodology wherein we provide alternatives, or perhaps "wiggle room" for the early Martians. This will require foreseeing a society emerging which begins to either develop its own rules ala carte, while facing up to the requirements of survival. Society in general back home may even be offended by some of the rules. We should be willing to provide support and understanding. And we should keep an open mind....

I'll get off my little soapbox now. Once again, I enjoy the commentaries. Everyday is a learning experience.

A.J.Armitage · 2003-01-12 22:39:11

Some of the comments on this thread illustrate exactly what's wrong with you people.

You see that:

This will not be an environment wherein a child can open any door that is unlocked, can scamper freely without consequence both to him/herself and to the community and Martian settlement program. Cuts, bruises, death, fire, loss of oxygen to the community can be the ready result of an errant youth.

So they'll need to be supervised all the time. You COULD have informal agreements among the inhabitants to watch each other's kids. Like that African saying Hillary named her book after.

But no. Like Hillery, you're modern sorts who can't conceive of what the Africans meant. It has to be "rational", planned, official, compulsory, and centralized. Spiffy uniforms and State Culture for everyone!

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-13 03:43:55

I see you're back for a quick insult eh A.J.? Going to stick around? There's probably ample future opportunity to accuse me of someone who wants centralized, militarized, police states or something.

Anyway, clark, you know I'm going to say this, but really, MDRS isn't a real reflection of people who do Mars colonization. I've said it before, Mars Direct is a suicide mission. It's basically meant to get to Mars cheap, and that's about it. It's not designed to be a true colonization effort. I also take issue with your bit about having to ?pay? for your trip after you've landed. Mainly due to the fact that people won't be able to get their without paying in advance in some form or another, and then there's the problem of enforceability. Yeah, there may be indentured colonizers, but I doubt that this would be the bonified way of getting to and living upon Mars (especially since it would be so risky- all you'd have to do is bail and go live in another colony somewhere- indentured servitude would only be viable if there was a way to insure that those indentured didn't renig on their contract- this won't happen until some sort of ID system is in place, or maybe very early on when there are few colonies to actually go to).

kapito · 2003-01-13 11:02:34

AJ:
Although I take umbrage with your responsive technique, which would tend to end the conversation before it has been properly fleshed out, I will do my dutiful best to continue.

Agreements between "neighbors" works well when the worst that can happen is one's house burning down due to a pyromaniacal child. Insurance comes in, the home is rebuilt, and the two neighbors may never speak again. Increased vigilance and criminal prosecution soon follow.

In a martian atmosphere, what can happen is a fire which causes the limited amount of oxygen to be combined with carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, amine, ammonia, and various carbonic acids. One cannot merely walk outside of their home to get a breath of "fresh air", cough against the visiting ambulance, and suck down a cup of water.

After a few "incidents" in a rudimentary biosphere, individuals less understanding to the habits and vagaries of children and teens will demand restrictions. These may wind up being imposed capriciously on the "offending parents and child". I honestly believe that restrictions and modifications above and beyond those required for terran children will naturally progress in response to these "incidents". I have found that in situations regarding survival, without a code of conduct and some mechanism of enforcement, things go overboard rapidly.

I take as an example my five years onboard a nuclear ballistic submarine as supervisor of a nuclear power plant and engineroom. Every so often, we would end up our patrols allowing male relatives and children of sailors to come aboard for a few days of "fun". The children had to be over a certain age, and had to be supervised at all times. Now, the sailors who brought on board their sons could not, obviously, watch them at all times. Maintenance and watchstanding were ever-present. Other sailors agreed to watch their kids, or the kids had to agree to stay with their dads on watch. In my particular circumstance as a nuclear power plant supervisor, I would not have been able to take my children into the engine room compartment, as they had no training in reactor plant operations, had no dosimeters to be issued, and we could not legally willingly expose children to radiation. So the nuclear power plant operators who decided to bring their children onboard could not see them during their watchstanding times. Other sailors watched them, or a relative came along to keep an eye. Sadly, these kids never got to see where their fathers spent most of their days.

Verbal or written agreements to curtail a child's actions are noble, but I don't think in the long run viable. Trained providers of education and care could do the job when both parents are busy performing maintenance, watch, or whatever their jobs entail. Agreements for special needs could then be created between parent(s) and providers. This could mean overnight care when needed, partial care when needed, special religious or moral code needs, etc. Opting out of a formalized system of education and training would be up to the community. Perhaps some communities would make it a requirement, perhaps others would have a more open system of care. I think most communities, given a choice, would fall somewhere in between, and provide measures dependent on the individual child's behavior and growth.

Provide a flexible set of rules to choose from, and let the communities decide which they will follow. But please, let's provide a canvas to at least paint on....

clark · 2003-01-13 11:10:31

Araon has returned to regale us with more of his debating buffonery. What else can we expect from a mere second place achiever? Trying for the silver again Araon? Community college debate just not enough for you anymore? Twit.

So Kapito, do you envision collective rearing of children to be mandatory, or optional? If it is optional, how do you envision the system creating a harmonious system whereby all participants are respected and involved with the development of the community? If it is not optional, and thus mandatory, how will this be enforced?

If a child's parents wish to relocate to another colony site, but the child does not wish to go, will the community step in to protect the wishes of the child? Or does the child belong solely to the parents, and thus must obey their commands?

In our world, children ARE property- albeit, property with neglible rights. The child belongs to the parent(s), to be reared as seen fit, and as accepted by society. Are you envisioning the same situation on Mars, or will there be a redelination of the rights of parents, child, and society?

I refrai from my understanding of your perspective, lest I taint the water...

Palomar · 2003-01-13 14:28:29

Many American settlers approached "the New World" believing that they were going to live in communities wherein they could brandish their own unique beliefs without those around who disagreed "getting in the way". Many came believing that the moral stances they inherited from Dutch, English and other cultures would work just fine, with a little weeding, tree-cutting and vegetable farming. Others approached what would become our land with the unique vision of freedom, of a blank canvas, Rousseau on a grand, natural scale. In each case, those that had inhabited the land for over 10,000 years (at least) and had adapted a culture unique to it were swept aside as "savages."
Phew. Abridged history lesson for those who already know the story.
What will be doing? With which of the aforementioned belief systems will we approach this "New World"? The earliest inhabitants on Mars will be uniquely conforming adults, studied, prodded and poked, interviewed adinfinitum to ensure no "instabilities which will negatively affect the Mars Mission." And why not? Did ancient voyagers to North America make it with a boatload of "rugged individualists", or individuals who still rowed after long months of traveling, because they were afraid of getting whipped or thrown overboard?
The "savages" of Mars will be the landscape, the inescapable burden that one failed component (back-ups aside) can kill. (Sometimes what breaks a machine also breaks its backup.) Peter reminded me in an e-mail the cold, hard fact that Earth is six months away. I believe that was how long the journey back to European soil was as well. Eventually, those individuals who have been poked and prodded and interviewed adinfinitum will feel the same alienation as the earliest settlers of America. Attachments to terran authority will eventually dissolve, as well and "mission creep" will occur. How long will it be before Martians decide that they will do things in their own manner? When your communications gear goes out, leaving you alone, and a massive rupture in the hydroponic room's shielding occurs, you quickly develop a sarcasm toward "King George" (so to speak), comfortably on his throne back home.
Peter (and I thank him for his comments) describes a methodology wherein we provide alternatives, or perhaps "wiggle room" for the early Martians.

*After reading _The Good Old Days: They Were Terrible!_ by Otto Bettman, it's apparent -- to me, at any rate -- that the biggest trouble facing new settlers in the U.S.A., particularly after the Civil War and until around 1910, was the tremendous glut of people coming into this nation (which included by paternal grandfather). People were arriving at such a frenzied pace that off-setting factors couldn't keep up...and there weren't many public assistance agencies at the time. Many people suffered as a result.

Mars won't face a similar difficulty...at least probably not for a very long time, considering the tremendous obstacles settling and surviving on it will pose...and we all know there's no fish to be caught in rivers nor deer to be hunted in forests on Mars. ???

Mars should progress at a much more sane and keep-up-with-it pace...which hopefully will, in turn, foster a level of stability and purpose previously unknown to new Earth civilizations by comparison. Another "plus" is that there will be no genocidal tactics and slavery bids with the start of that new civilization. Call me a romantic, but I do see an genuine opportunity for a truly golden age for humankind on Mars.

--Cindy

soph · 2003-01-13 17:37:14

Being a child, I strongly say I would rather have limited rights than be a part of a collective. I don't want to be taken care of by somebody who has nothing to do with my existence--my family reared me, and they deserve the chance to raise me.

Anybody read The Giver? That book influenced my view on communism a great deal. It might not be pure communism, but i hated the way that everybody was subject to the will of everyone else. Children should be free to choose, and their parents should guide them.

I still stick with my school/apprenticeship theory

A.J.Armitage · 2003-01-14 01:47:41

kapito;

Agreements between "neighbors" works well when the worst that can happen is one's house burning down due to a pyromaniacal child. Insurance comes in, the home is rebuilt, and the two neighbors may never speak again. Increased vigilance and criminal prosecution soon follow.
In a martian atmosphere, what can happen is a fire which causes the limited amount of oxygen to be combined with carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, amine, ammonia, and various carbonic acids. One cannot merely walk outside of their home to get a breath of "fresh air", cough against the visiting ambulance, and suck down a cup of water.

Haven't you ever heard of childproofing?

Ah, what about places that can't be childproofed? Keep them out, like in your story about the sub. Easy, simple, and robust.

Of course, "easy, simple, and robust" are three strikes against it.

clark;

Have anything of substance to say?

soph · 2003-01-14 05:32:04

AJ, you need to be hugged.

Theres only one problem. No kids in the colony=the colony is dead in 50 years. So i think its really, easy, stupid, and counterproductive.

How many cases of arson are actually done by children? How many cases are actually like the one you described?

clark · 2003-01-14 10:12:11

clark;
Have anything of substance to say?

Let's say I have as much as you do.

Would it be ill conceived to have the children "belong" to the community?

My view is that reproduction will be managed, eventually, in any Martian Colony. maybe not at first- maybe not for a very long time, but eventually, the need will arise to manage the population growth.

Along these lines, martian parents would agree to the terms of having the opportunity to have a child, they must commit to raising that child within the community that allowed the child to be born. The child belongs to the community until it is an adult- the child has a home. The parents must make a choice, if they want a child, they must also decide that they are willing to become a part of the community in which the child is raised.

Children thus become another means to bind a community together. There are no outsiders raising people's children. There are no strangers raising the children. You may say this is unfair to the families if they wish to move. Well, what of the child- the community? The community will be responsible for providing shelter, food, water- life. The community must also be managed. The professionals whom the community will depend on for infrastructure support will be stabilized becuase as soon as they have a child, there is a virtual guraeente that those people will stay until their child is grown.

Parents still get to raise their children within the community, but it is only within the community itself that they have these parental rights.

Rough idea, I'll await the criticism and accusations that I am Satan.

Palomar · 2003-01-14 10:33:15

Soph: Being a child, I strongly say I would rather have limited rights than be a part of a collective.

*Actually, everyone's rights would be limited in a collective. Which is probably why a cooperative would be a better option.

Soph: Children should be free to choose, and their parents should guide them.

*Which is precisely how I felt at your age. But what if the parents oppose their child's decision? Are they allowed to nullify/deprive the child of carrying out that choice? If the child is still completely financially dependent upon the parents, and they allow their child to make all of his/her own decisions and then something goes wrong, who will take responsibility for the decision in the first place? Supposing my 14-year-old daughter on Mars gets into debt (from money both earned by working combined with an allowance my husband and I give her), and she cannot pay the remainder of her debt? Will her parents be obligated to pay her debts?

Financial dependence or independence is a major factor in what level of autonomy individuals have. But it's not the only factor involved. If I saw that my daughter was making a series of decisions which were likely to culminate in very bad consequences for her, am I allowed to intervene?

Responsibility is a key issue here as well. Yes, many young people your age are responsible (and, conversely, many people my age are totally irresponsible buttheads who should know better); however, again, if parents are only allowed to guide their children who can make all their own decisions (and starting at what age, precisely?), which party is going to be made accountable for consequences of decisions?

--Cindy

Palomar · 2003-01-14 10:40:44

I am Satan.

Hot ####. I've been mistaking you for Asmodeus.

--Cindy :laugh:

clark · 2003-01-14 11:08:17

Easy enough mistake, but feel free to call me that, or any of the following:

Abaddon,The accuser of our brethren, The adversary, Apollyon, Beelzebub, Belial, the Devil, dragon, father of all lies, a falsifier, king of Babylon, king of Tyrus, Lucifer, man of sin, that old serpent, "shade" or a shadow , prince of the power of the air, prince of Tyrus, prince of this world, rulers of the darkness of this world, son of perdition, the tempter, or simply, the wicked one.

:angry:

soph · 2003-01-14 13:59:50

I really dont think that anyone has any right to limit reproduction, or manage your children.

If a child grows into debt, yes, the family should repay it. I would hope that the family also made the child repay them with interest over time.

And if you want an argument against community raising children, look at america's foster homes. Good intentions, but in some cases, horrific result of abuse, neglect, and so on.

The parents who spawn the children are most like their children, not some psychologist who analyzes the child.

clark · 2003-01-14 14:23:23

We are not discussing American foster homes, and it is a poor analogy in terms of a Martian experience.

Mars habitats will in many respects resemble small-town life. Everyone will know everyone, by and large. Faces will be familiar. Around these lines, we will see the development of "communities". These communities will be strengthed with the introduction of children since it is a community commitment to rasie the children.

The nuclear family will need to be reevaluated on Mars. Yeah, you can have your mom and dad, but what of the larger context of an overall community that is interdependant upon all members in order to maintain life for everyone? This creates situations where a redefinition of relationships need to take place.

The community becomes more central- it becomes a neccessity to allow means to build community bonds, and a sense of security for everyone. By declaring that a child is the custody of the community, but a ward of their parents, it creates new opportunites for us all.

We want stability on Mars, not chaos. We want predictibility whenever possible. part of that predictibility is knowing your population- having an agreement that if you have a child, you raise the child only in the community that allowed the birth seems sensible. If parents are dedicated, there should be no great difficulty in deciding on where they want to have their child. Remember, children are a luxary in space, not a neccessity.. This idea that we have an inherent right to reproduce must be reexamined- this idea, this instinct is the product of thousands of years of social development that looked at children nothing more than a commodity- something that could be sold, bought, or traded as life dictated- or, more recently, as extra hands to create wealth for the family.

All of this changes in space. Each extra life added is an extra burden on the community as a whole. If you need more people, there is a dirth of them on Earth. Yet you "want" children- so there must be a level of sacrifice involved- there must also be some guareentees between the community that is responsible for providing the neccessities of life, and the individual with whom we each equal.

Bill White · 2003-01-14 15:34:13

Mars habitats will in many respects resemble small-town life. Everyone will know everyone, by and large. Faces will be familiar. Around these lines, we will see the development of "communities". These communities will be strengthed with the introduction of children since it is a community commitment to rasie the children.

If anything, clark greatly understates this point. I visualize a gigantic extended family bonded by continuous proximity and shared purpose (survival?) if not biological relation.

The "we" or "us" aspect of the community will be thrust in everyone's face every hour of every day. There will be very little privacy and the 19th century notion of "headin' west" for some "elbow room" is absurd. There will be NO elbow room.

IMHO - benign rituals will be needed to safeguard privacy and each settlers sense of being an individual - rather than the reverse. Rituals that celebrate that each of us are simultaneously unique individuals and members of a larger group. The need to survive will foster a strong community sense no matter what we do.

The nuclear family will need to be reevaluated on Mars. Yeah, you can have your mom and dad, but what of the larger context of an overall community that is interdependant upon all members in order to maintain life for everyone? This creates situations where a redefinition of relationships need to take place.

I daresay every non-related settler will be called aunt or uncle by all the children. All children will be encouraged to view all other children as if they were cousins - later, marriage becomes tricky, as in any small group.

Anyone with a sociology bent may wish to read about Pitcairn Island - its a tiny island very far from anywhere where some of the Bounty sailors ended up after they fled Tahiti. Studying the family dynamics on Pitcairn Island may well give useful insight into what Mars settlers and Mars families will face. Very much less freedom that residents of giant US cities might care for, it would seem.

Google "Pitcairn Island" and let me know what you think.

Population is 47 - yes, 47 people - and the island is 1350 miles SE of Tahiti.

clark · 2003-01-14 16:04:25

Was it your intent to choose these particular people to demonstrate some other points related to future martian development?

I'm wondering if you are aware of their current situation and their possible demise as a people due to the application of foreign laws and social customs related to the protection of children?

However, I can already see how their experiences would lend insight into martian social development- hopefully sans the issue of child abuse.

Good find, thanks!

Bill White · 2003-01-14 16:21:52

clark writes:

Was it your intent to choose these particular people to demonstrate some other points related to future martian development?
I'm wondering if you are aware of their current situation and their possible demise as a people due to the application of foreign laws and social customs related to the protection of children?
However, I can already see how their experiences would lend insight into martian social development- hopefully sans the issue of child abuse.
Good find, thanks!

Heh!

Lets see, I am sure that dissertation I wrote last week is lying about here somewhere. . .

I just think we should try and find (and then research) some real life communities that might approximate some of the issues a small isolated permanent human settlement might face. We have never been to Mars, but small very isolated communities of 50 to 150 people have existed before.

Many years ago I read a fascinating book about Pitcairn Island: Serpent in Paradise and I posted my last message after I suddenly recalled reading it.

I might prefer to work with a few real life analogies - however flawed - as opposed to spending all our time advocating our own preconceptions about what makes a good family and how conformity emerges in human groups.

If I recall the book correctly --- Pitcairn society imposes considerable conformity without any overt process or public discussion to accomplish the deed.

clark · 2003-01-14 16:26:48

Ah, are you aware that the Pictariaians are facing "extinction" due to allegations of child abuse? Britian, which is their protectorate, is trying to hold a trial off of the island- however, the people of the island claim that the time they would be away would effectively kill their society.

Man, this exmplifies many of the discussions pertaining to Mars.

Perhaps you might be better served to reaquaint yourself with what is happening to the Pictarias now...

Just "google" it.

or check out this article I found linked to their home page:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/travel/D … 21114.html

soph · 2003-01-14 16:42:11

Hmm, yes, a community life would be very important. Maybe a town gathering center, or complex. But I still think extended families (grandparents, parents, etc.) should live together, and the children remain.

The extended family provides enough of a range of experiences and perspectives to care for children. This is how early settlements in America were formed, and how the Native Americans lived before that. Many still live this way. I think the extended family module would be a good idea for Mars.

Bill White · 2003-01-14 16:46:25

Man, this exmplifies many of the discussions pertaining to Mars.

This was my only objective in citing Pitcairn. Some "real life" examples to work with.

I had not known how bad it "really" was but I am not excessively surprised. I did read where the Islanders now defend the abuse by saying its part of their unique culture. Perhaps any predictions of the sociology of isolated Mars settlements will need to include case studies of places like Pitcairn Island.

Oh - my snide google comment was not directed at clark. There are others here - who will not be named - who believe watching FOX constitutes genuine research.

clark · 2003-01-14 16:50:47

Extended families is the creation of a larger sub-family group within the oveall community group. Instead of looking at the extended family based on geentic lines, why not apply the extended family metaphor to encompass the entire community to begin with? Why splinter?

That is what I mean when I say the children belong to the community. It is the community itself that provides the framework and support for the individuals within to have the opportunity to HAVE children. The parents will of course take an interest in their child as much as they deem fit- but what the martians should do is guareentee the childs welfare, irregardless of parents.

No matter where you are on Mars, you will be living with other people. There will be no room for hermits.

Imagine living in a Hotel for the rest of your life- it is simmilar in many regards to what the Martians will face.

I also would like to point out that I am in favor of poulation control, it will eventually make sense. In order to maintain local control of population growth, it behooves the martians to require the children stay within the community until adulthood. Otherwise, population managaement must occur at a higher level to coordinate further- it moves away from local control.

soph · 2003-01-14 17:11:58

Until we develop maglev tubes between "towns," yes, i agree.

But we wont be living in a huge hotel. People like separate quarters, and theres no reason we cant do this. Each extended family could have a bubble. Theres plenty of room to go around for the next few centuries.

The community could be like an extended family, but i think that bloodline families should be living separately. This usually helps to reduce friction, feel more relaxed, and so on. I dont think that we have to cram everyone together.

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