Has Multiculturalism Failed ?

noosfractal · 2006-09-25 02:24:38

Its hard to tell between the different Muslim Subcultures, they all look alike. From the point of view of the non-muslim, you just have to be wary everytime you see some obvious muslim, as Wahhabists rarely announce themselves before they attack. I have no terrorist detector, and if ever I find myself on a Muslim street, I'm going to have to be extra wary, and if that hurts any moderate muslim's feelings, then that's just too bad. My survival always comes first over nondescrimination.

I understand that to act any other way requires great courage. I pray that enough people will find that courage so as to gradually de-escalate tensions.

Hey this Catholic Church is really boring, no inquisitions, no forced confessions, no witch hunts that I read in the history books.

So you know that the Christian church behaved atrociously in the past. It's like being an ex-alcoholic preaching the evils of drink.

I really can't picture the above scenario really happening in any Christian community I know of. If a branch of Christianity openly encourages evil and murder, they typical reaction is recoil and horro, not attraction and "lets join up!"

Right, _today_ it is, just a few generations after the witch burnings. ( Although check out this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_G._Boykin for a man who was born centuries too late ). In time, Muslim culture will self-criticize and correct. The primacy of the West is a blessing and a curse. A blessing because it demonstrates the obvious benefits of a liberal humanist society. A curse because it is already there - rubbing it in their face constantly. They still have to go through the feminist revolution, but they have to do it in view of a library of books detailing the rhetoric for and against. In one way everything is easier because of the example, but in another, the example is the problem - like a younger sibling resenting an older.

You know alot of the churchs in Gaza that were burned after the Pope's statement were not even Catholic.

And a lot of the religious buildings attacked in the US after 9/11 weren't mosques. "They wear turbins, they must be Muslim." Ignorance is everywhere.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-09-25 09:45:23

And they like it that way.

Islamic society provides camouflage for the radicals. Just because the terrorists, and radicals wear turbans, veils, burkas, and masks doesn't mean that the Moderates stop wearing these things, but perhaps they should, it would do wonders to improve their longevity. Also certain types of Islamic dress, especially Burkas are greak for conceiling bombs, and guns. Colthing that conceils the feminine form also conceils terrorists.

Also there is the phenominon of terrorists getting elected to high office:

'We clean the streets and we also kill the Jews, as well as providing a whole host of government services all subsidized by foreign governments, and we'll help rebuild your homes after the Israelis retaliate, vote for us!"

"You can easily see how Islamic people may be misunderstood, it is not that they like the terrorists, it is just that they are good at cleaning up corruption and running the government in addition to killing the Jews, just like the National Socialists were in Germany. The NAZIs got Germany working again, they reduced unemployment, and that's what the German people, who were not Jews, liked, but their is also the little matter of the Holocaust and World War II, but nobody's perfect right? And the German people are not to be blamed, only understood." :twisted:

Yeah Right!

Just to be clear I use the devil sign when I'm being sarcastic.

Also there is a difference between collateral damage and deliberate destruction and murder, yes they both produce dead bodies and rubble and liberals often fail to see the difference between the two, but tell me this.

Would you rather be in a German city that's being bombed by the Allies during World War II, or would you rather be one of the Jews in a German occupied country during World War II the the Gestapo and SS trying to find you, round you up and send you to the Death Camps to be gassed and Cremated, under which circumstanse are you more likely to survive? I believe the German holocaust killed more Jews than the total amount of aerial bombing conducted by the Allies on German cities.

There is also a difference in accidental civilian casualities when pursuing other objectives and the deliberate targeting of civilians that occurs under terrorism. Yes they both produce bodies, one however achieves a primary objective other than killing civilians, while the other's primary objective is killing civilians!

War is messy, there is no help for it other than not fighting it, but sometimes not fighting it means surrender and then we have holocaust scenarios. Do you get my drift?

noosfractal · 2006-09-25 12:29:11

War is messy, there is no help for it other than not fighting it, but sometimes not fighting it means surrender and then we have holocaust scenarios. Do you get my drift?

Yep. On this last, I agree with you.

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-09-25 13:12:41

So you know that the Christian church behaved atrociously in the past. It's like being an ex-alcoholic preaching the evils of drink.

Who would know better? Anyway, i tend to seperate out the generations. The Inquisition was a long time ago, those people are dead and buried and the flesh has rotted from their bones. Also the Muslims that had lived at the time of the Crusades are gone as well. We only have their descendents and the descendents of the crusaders, and they are not the same people! Muslims may have been peaceful and open-minded in the Middle Ages. I really don't know who's accounts to believe. All I know is that we are getting alot of problems from the people of the Middle East today. For some reason, they have chosen now, right after the Cold War to declare War on us, and too many of that young Arab generation think war is cool, neat and fun, and that dying in the Jihad is the latest craze that is sweeping the nations. I'm sick and tired of trying to understand their motives, maybe they should understand ours. Mainly that if they get us involved in their holy war in earnest, that we will kill them, and that if they want to go on living they should leave us alone!

The same thing applies to Chavez and Venuzualia, whats the matter with this guy? "Oh George Bush is stupid! Oh no he's the Devil! I'll go to his country and call him 'the Devil' to his face! Oh no he's going to kill me! Oh what shall I do?"

Chavez is a stupid turd-brain, he so paranoid, he's afraid the US is going to invade his country and assassinate him, so what does he do? He comes to our country and starts calling our President names. Duh, what a retard! If your afraid of the bear, you don't walk up to him and poke at him with a stick, Duh! And he becomes friendly with Iran because its our enemy, double Duh! If ever there is a War between the US and Iran, he doesn't want Venuzualia standing on the sidelines, he wants a portion of American bombs heading his way and wrecking his cities. I wonder why he is a member of the Non-aligned Nations? Aren't Non-aligned nations supposed to be neutral? Our problems with Iran have nothing to do with Venuzualia unless Chavez makes it so. When I think of neutral nations I think of Switzerland, which minds its own business. Chavez doesn't mind his own business and so is not really neutral, and neither is Cuba. Real neutral countries don't try to get involved in the Worlds conflicts, they don't look for a fight as Chavez is doing. Someday we should put Chavez out of his misery. Looks like he's really asking for the US Government to assassinate him. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't mind if it did, he seems to want it so badly. How do retards like that ever get to run country? Venuzualia has problems that Chavez is not solving, he seems to prefer bear-baiting instead.

Palomar · 2006-10-06 07:29:03

Multiculturalism failing ? Well, of course.
Just one example: Women in Norway, Sweden and Australia were gang-raped by muslim groups. Most of the muslims insisted they were doing nothing wrong, that women were asking for it ... because of their clothes and so on ...
Some quick-found links:
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/08/ra … islam.html
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=16667&sec=33&con=14

What a way of trying to control people, huh? We don't like the way you dress so we can punish you.

Sexual contact outside the bonds of marriage is considered wrong in Islam. But it's okay to have (forced) sex with women (definitely outside the bonds of marriage) for punishment's sake? Punitive fornication is okay?

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-10-06 09:56:00

I can only shake my head. I hope Islamic society imporves and moderation prevails. I really don't want to get in a war with them, not because I think we'll lose, but because I hate the thought of having to kill so many people in order to get peace. I think we both can share this world if the both of our cultures can live in peace with each other. I have no problem living in peace with them so long as they do the same, and we are giving plenty of money for their oil and prioviding them with riches that they otherwise wouldn't have. I think up to now this arrangement has been mutually beneficial for both our societies. We certainly haven't exploited them to our benefit, the prices they received for their oil has been more than fair I think, considering that it only costs them $2 a barrel for them to get oil out of the ground, I would not call $50 a barrel or $60 a barrel exploitation, unless it means their exploitation of us. Also if it wasn't for the United States, many Arab countries would still be colonial possessions of European Empires. Our influence in winning World War II and the pressure we put on our post war allies assured the breakup of their European Empires and the independence of these Arab States. We bought oil from them, made so Arab countries rich, but unfortunately for many Arabs this is not enough, they want their Jihad as well, they want to attack Americans and kill Jews, it is just so sad, I wish it were otherwise, I really do.

EuroLauncher · 2006-10-08 01:55:49

Muslim cabbies refuse the blind and drinkers
http://www.news.com.au/sundayheraldsun/ … 61,00.html
At least 20 dog-aided blind people have lodged discrimination complaints with the Victorian Taxi Directorate. Dozens more have voiced their anger.

Muslim cab drivers in Minneapolis-St. Paul have issued a “jihad” against customers who carry alcohol. The cabbies refuse to transport anyone carrying alcoholic products.
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/18897.html

Tom Kalbfus · 2006-10-08 09:02:01

I guess some Muslims have no self control. If there is alchohol in their cars, they don't trust themselves not to drink it while driving. Are they all recovering alcoholics with no self control? If a Muslim cabbie cannot do the job and is rude to passengers, he should be fired! Maybe the taxi fares ought to be increased as well so that non-muslims will seek these jobs. If the cab driver can't do his job because of religious requirements, he shouldn't have the job. There are many other people who don't have restricitve religions and are quite capable of transporting alcohol and seeing eye dogs.

EuroLauncher · 2008-02-15 09:29:01

Copenhagen police arrest six in fifth night of riots
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g1z … cnFhHCpuxA

Thousands of supporters of the Islamist group Hamas protested in the Gaza Strip on Friday against the reprinting of a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammad that sparked Muslim outrage two years ago.
http://news.yahoo.com/i/721;_ylt=AvOPb7 … oLc0Rn.3QA

Commodore · 2008-02-15 22:43:55

It's getting to the point where the world needs to ban Sharia.

Terraformer · 2008-02-16 03:13:49

Agreed.

Multiculturalism does not work. It stands to reason that if you get a load of people with radically different views, someone is going to be offended. Actually, it might work if you remove those who get violent when they're offended. Then you only have to remove a bunch of extremistMuslims, some extremist Christiians, a few extremist Hindus, a load of extremist Athiests... (the list goes on but I can't be bothered to put it.)

Sexual contact outside the bonds of marriage is considered wrong in Islam. But it's okay to have (forced) sex with women (definitely outside the bonds of marriage) for punishment's sake? Punitive fornication is okay?

It's only considered wrong if the Woman is a Muslim. If she's an 'Infidel' then it's fine. And gay sex isn't allowed, but gay rape as a punishment is.

So you know that the Christian church behaved atrociously in the past. It's like being an ex-alcoholic preaching the evils of drink.

And ex-alcholics are in the best position to do that, as they know what it's like.

Tom Kalbfus · 2008-03-15 10:03:58

Copenhagen police arrest six in fifth night of riots
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g1z … cnFhHCpuxA
Thousands of supporters of the Islamist group Hamas protested in the Gaza Strip on Friday against the reprinting of a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammad that sparked Muslim outrage two years ago.
http://news.yahoo.com/i/721;_ylt=AvOPb7 … oLc0Rn.3QA

And launch more missiles they do. When Israelis respond, the Palestinians get offended that the Israelis actually have the gaul to defend themselves, "Oh how dare they!" The UN usually condemns Israel for defending itself, and usually towards the end of their statement they add a token condemnation of the Gazans attack on Israel in the first place. Usually what is criticised is the Israelis use of F16s helicopters and ground troop incursions to stop the rocket attacks and they call that a disproportionate response. Would a proportionate response be to duplicat the rockets the Palestinians are using and fire many more of them back into Gaza in order to make sure they get the rocket launch sites from which they came?

They could give a "World War I" response if the UN likes and call that proportionate and meanwhile turn the Gaza strip into a desonate World War I moonscape and "no mans land" where no one can live, perhaps after that the Palestinians will finally get war weary like those Europeans did and stop attacking Israel!

Gregori · 2008-04-04 09:36:12

can we rename the thread middle class white male paranoia?

Commodore · 2008-04-04 12:37:25

can we rename the thread middle class white male paranoia?

No, but we can rename it Humanities Suicidal Death Spiral if you would prefer.

zhar2 · 2008-04-04 13:13:59

Multiculturalism hasnt failed, it just hasnt been implemented properly.

For a multicultural society groups have to learn to compromise, but although most do compromise by accepting each others some dont, for example i find fustrating that some (not all) muslims think multiculturalism is us obeying their rules other wise its discriminating them (eg: dont drink, dont wear short dresses, etc) and they dont belive antidiscrimination works both ways and demand respect but dont give it themselfs to all other cultures that deviate from the islamic ideal and shun those cultures (by country or religion) or sexual orientation.

It just has to be undestood by all parties involved that respect is both and all ways no matter how immoral you think they are and express no discrimination, and sometimes just to downplay somethings others find uncomfortable and try to experience the other cultures themselfs (both ways).

Commodore · 2008-04-04 14:26:45

Multiculturalism hasn't failed, it just hasn't been implemented properly.
For a multicultural society groups have to learn to compromise, but although most do compromise by accepting each others some dont, for example i find frustrating that some (not all) Muslims think multiculturalism is us obeying their rules other wise its discriminating them (eg: don't drink, don't wear short dresses, etc) and they don't believe anti discrimination works both ways and demand respect but don't give it themselves to all other cultures that deviate from the Islamic ideal and shun those cultures (by country or religion) or sexual orientation.
It just has to be understood by all parties involved that respect is both and all ways no matter how immoral you think they are and express no discrimination, and sometimes just to downplay somethings others find uncomfortable and try to experience the other cultures themselves (both ways).

Yeah, the question is, why do we tolerate that kind of intolerant behavior?

zhar2 · 2008-04-04 15:02:27

Multiculturalism hasn't failed, it just hasn't been implemented properly.
For a multicultural society groups have to learn to compromise, but although most do compromise by accepting each others some dont, for example i find frustrating that some (not all) Muslims think multiculturalism is us obeying their rules other wise its discriminating them (eg: don't drink, don't wear short dresses, etc) and they don't believe anti discrimination works both ways and demand respect but don't give it themselves to all other cultures that deviate from the Islamic ideal and shun those cultures (by country or religion) or sexual orientation.
It just has to be understood by all parties involved that respect is both and all ways no matter how immoral you think they are and express no discrimination, and sometimes just to downplay somethings others find uncomfortable and try to experience the other cultures themselves (both ways).
Yeah, the question is, why do we tolerate that kind of intolerant behavior?

But you dont fight fire with fire.

there are more ways of managing that than being antagonistic.

Commodore · 2008-04-04 15:22:22

Multiculturalism hasn't failed, it just hasn't been implemented properly.
For a multicultural society groups have to learn to compromise, but although most do compromise by accepting each others some dont, for example i find frustrating that some (not all) Muslims think multiculturalism is us obeying their rules other wise its discriminating them (eg: don't drink, don't wear short dresses, etc) and they don't believe anti discrimination works both ways and demand respect but don't give it themselves to all other cultures that deviate from the Islamic ideal and shun those cultures (by country or religion) or sexual orientation.
It just has to be understood by all parties involved that respect is both and all ways no matter how immoral you think they are and express no discrimination, and sometimes just to downplay somethings others find uncomfortable and try to experience the other cultures themselves (both ways).
Yeah, the question is, why do we tolerate that kind of intolerant behavior?
But you dont fight fire with fire.
there are more ways of managing that than being antagonistic.

Really?

Osama releases his latest album insulting the West, and the West yawns.

Some Danish cartoonists release a cartoon implying Muslims use Islam as an excuse for violence, and Muslims respond with violence.

We have no moral or legal responsibility to tolerate such nonsense.

zhar2 · 2008-04-04 15:40:56

And thats whats seems to happen when you fight fire with fire (by the way im christian, well non-practising)

Gregori · 2008-04-04 15:50:07

can we rename the thread middle class white male paranoia?
No, but we can rename it Humanities Suicidal Death Spiral if you would prefer.

And you wonder why I mention paranoiah..

Terraformer · 2008-04-05 08:57:53

Gregori, you forgot Heterosexual. And Christian. Remember, it's Heterosexual White Christian Males who control the planet and oppress everyone else. It's really amazing how such a small group control such a large planet.

Gregori · 2008-04-05 21:36:07

Gregori, you forgot Heterosexual. And Christian. Remember, it's Heterosexual White Christian Males who control the planet and oppress everyone else. It's really amazing how such a small group control such a large planet.

Its more amazing how such small mind sets arise from economic and social class. I guess, in my experience its almost predictable who's saying something from what is being said.

Commodore · 2008-04-05 21:42:01

Gregori, you forgot Heterosexual. And Christian. Remember, it's Heterosexual White Christian Males who control the planet and oppress everyone else. It's really amazing how such a small group control such a large planet.
Its more amazing how such small mind sets arise from economic and social class. I guess, in my experience its almost predictable who's saying something from what is being said.

Now there is something we can agree on.

Gregori · 2008-04-06 01:43:45

I was actually in NY last week near Union square, Manhattan. I accidentally had a public debate with a Azebaijani, an Indian and a Tibetan about nationalism, none of whom I had met before. I made peace between them all with offerings of free M&Ms. It was awesome.

Terraformer · 2008-04-07 10:06:47

True, you can work out who's saying something from what is being said.

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