Ares I (CLV) - status

RedStreak · 2008-03-26 22:07:02

Update from NASA's site:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/const … stest.html

cIclops · 2008-03-27 08:07:13

Irresistible concept image

cIclops · 2008-03-31 14:31:47

Mar 31, 2008
By Frank Morring, Jr./Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
Crew performance is the limiting factor in a worrisome thrust oscillation linkage between the solid-fueled first stage of NASA's planned Ares I launch vehicle and its upper stages, according to the former shuttle commander who conceived of using a single space shuttle solid-rocket boost to launch humans toward the moon.
Scott (Doc) Horowitz, a four-time shuttle veteran who later headed NASA's Exploration Systems Mission Directorate as Ares I development was getting under way, said March 28 that the tiger team assembled to address the problem has found it tractable in a way that shouldn't impede the Ares I preliminary design review coming up this summer.
Early estimates of the scope of the problem were overly conservative, Horowitz said. Instead of threatening the health of the crew and damage to some vehicle hardware, the actual vibration levels generated as the solid-fuel first stage burns out can be handled with relatively straightforward mechanical fixes.
"You can mitigate this throughout the whole vehicle," Horowitz said. "You can do it on the top of the first stage. You can do it on the interstage. You can do it by the orientation of the tanks. When you get up to the [Orion crew exploration vehicle] CEV and the service module, then you can put shock absorbers in the seats."
Horowitz, now an independent aerospace consultant whose clients include ATK, the Ares I first-stage contractor, and a "greybeard" advisor to NASA through the NASA Engineering and Safety Center, served on the tiger team that reviewed the thrust oscillation issue after it arose last fall. Garry M. Lyles, the senior NASA engineer who headed that review panel, is scheduled to brief Congress on his findings the week of March 31.
Although initial "conservative" statistical estimates of the vibrations an Ares I crew would experience fell in the 5-g range, Horowitz said his "best guess" is that it will actually be in the 0.25-g range. While the former level would kill an astronaut if it went on long enough, the latter becomes a performance issue.
About half of the shuttle astronauts report that vibrations from the twin solid-rocket boosters make it difficult for them to see displays during ascent, Horowitz said, and that will probably be the ultimate effect of the thrust oscillation in the Orion from the Ares I.
"You're probably not going to want to shake the crew more than about a quarter of a g, and people are trying to go get a more detailed number on that, if you want them to be able to operate," he said.
Mitigation techniques could include changing the mass and stiffness of the stack to "detune" it a few Hertz to cut vibrations, and adding material to absorb the vibration in a fashion like the rubber engine mounts on automobiles. Ultimately it will be a tradeoff between the benefit of a modification in the basic design and the weight penalty paid, Horowitz said.

Vibration Problem Fixable

gaetanomarano · 2008-04-03 06:10:15

.

from this article: "Interestingly, amid rumors of a configuration change in the offing, the first documented note of switching to a four segment Ares I with two J2-X upper stage engines gained a mention as a direct possibility of solving the TO problem."

then... this:

cIclops · 2008-04-03 06:34:21

Yet another annoying article from NSF based on leaked documents from EMSD, documents that they sell on their website.

Later today there will be an audio teleconference where EMSD will discuss the vibration issue.

WASHINGTON -- NASA will host a media teleconference on Thursday, April 3, at 2:30 p.m. EDT to discuss findings from the Ares I thrust oscillation focus team. The team has been studying possible vibration concerns in the early designs of the new crew launch vehicle NASA is designing as part of the Constellation Program, which is building a spacecraft that will return humans to the moon by 2020.
The briefing participants are:
-- Rick Gilbrech, associate administrator, Exploration Systems Mission Directorate, NASA Headquarters, Washington
-- Doug Cooke, deputy associate administrator, Exploration Systems Mission Directorate, NASA Headquarters
-- Steve Cook, manager, Ares Projects, NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Ala.
-- Garry Lyles, associate director for technical management, NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center
Reporters should contact Grey Hautaluoma at 202-358-0668, or Stephanie Schierholz at 202-358-4997, by 11 a.m. April 3, for dial-in information.
The teleconference also will be audiocast live on NASA's Web site at:
http://www.nasa.gov/newsaudio

source

gaetanomarano · 2008-04-03 13:33:15

<moderated edit - references to your site and proposals and OT material have been removed - this topic is for status of Ares I>

sorry for your deletion of my blog's links (but NOT or the commercial DIRECTspaceflight.lobby link...) especially since it seems that (every day more) MY blog ANTICIPATE the Ares-1 "status"...

.

cIclops · 2008-04-03 13:56:32

Summary of the audio media briefing:

o Thrust Oscillation issue not delaying PDR
o First stage has a 12 Hz secondary mode that may resonate with the expected 11.7 Hz natural frequency of the stack
o Forcing oscillation pressure 0.5 - 1.0 psi occurs late in burn, small compared with internal pressure (1000 psi)
o Main effect of vibration on Orion & crew, Ares unaffected
o Recommendation: use tuned mass damper in first stage, stiffening and shock absorbers in Orion
o First stage recovery parachute can be used as damper
o mitigation options can be removed if not needed
o No significant weight impact to Orion (max 200lbs or even reduction)
o It is a very manageable design issue

Sample media exchange:

Reporter: "You keep talking generally about no change in overall mass, I know mass is a major problem with the system right now ..."

Steve Cook: "Today we've got about, between what we measure Orion may weigh and gross performance, we've got 15% performance margin .. that's several thousand pounds of margin"

They still don't get it, they still believe rumors rather than the engineers who are actually designing Ares and Orion.

idiom · 2008-04-03 22:27:01

It must be wonderul to be 15% underweight at this point.

I wonder how all the messing with The Orion/Las is altering the Stack Frequency?

cIclops · 2008-04-03 23:55:09

The 15% margin was built into the design from the start as a reserve, this is carried through the entire design process to protect again unseen issues. This resonance burning issue is a good example, if they need to add 200lbs of mass to Orion it can be taken from the reserve.

Every change to the mass or stiffness of Orion/LAS will change the stack frequency. Mass tends to increase during development and this will reduce the natural frequency, which helps. A 10% difference in frequencies is sufficient to detune the stack. Ground vibration tests on flight hardware as well as data from STS-125, Ares I-X and I-Y will all contribute to the final resolution of this issue.

gaetanomarano · 2008-04-04 08:13:08

.

GAO reports that the (current) Ares-1 seems not in good "status"

.

cIclops · 2008-04-04 10:36:39

Ares I and Orion Project Risks and Key Indicators to Measure Progress (PDF) GAO report - 3 Apr 2008

Where does it say Ares I is "not in good status" ?

The report says the standard things that could be said about any similar project, such as requirements and design reviews are important, risks must be managed, schedule may slip blah blah.

gaetanomarano · 2008-04-04 11:24:59

"not in good status"

although the O.S. article doesn't report these exact words, it's the logical consequence of the problems listed

.

cIclops · 2008-04-04 11:49:11

The report lists these risks:

• Both vehicles have a history of weight issues;
• Excessive vibration during launch threatens system design;
• Uncertainty about how flight characteristics will be impacted by a fifth segment added to the Ares I launch vehicle;
• Ares I upper stage essentially requires development of a new engine;
• No industry capability currently exists for producing the kind of heat shields that the Orion will need for protecting the crew exploration vehicle when it reenters Earth’s atmosphere; and
• Existing test facilities are insufficient for testing Ares I’s new engine, for replicating the engine’s vibration and acoustic environment, and for testing the thermal protection system for the Orion vehicle.

Weight (sic) issues are under control (currently a 15% margin)
Vibration is a manageable issue (see recent briefing)
Extensive wind tunnel testing has been done
J-2X has been under development since 2006 and is on track
Orion will probably use the Shuttle TPS - there is industrial capability for this
New test facilities are under construction to meet all requirements

Commodore · 2008-04-04 12:40:36

I wonder who Congress is listening to when they write up these reports.

RedStreak · 2008-04-04 13:50:55

I wonder who Congress is listening to when they write up these reports.

Agreed. It's hard to convince them and easy to sway away.

However, these arguments also confirm what NASA was saying all along - they need more funds to pull it off. Congress never gave NASA everything it needed to properly start Constellation off.

SpaceNut · 2008-04-04 15:21:30

It was the way in which it was presented that has caused the confusion for congress. They were sound using shuttle hardware which to most means plug and play not redesign to make that unplugged part fit its new role.

RedStreak · 2008-04-10 12:51:47

SpaceNut you put up a great link to this I thought it'd be good idea to place it here in the 'proper' forum:

ATK Plans Commercial Ares-I

cIclops · 2008-04-10 17:26:35

Yes, very interesting. This would make ATK another competitor for heavy cargo launch and extend the flight experience base for Ares I. Note also:

As configured to launch NASA's Orion crew exploration vehicle, the Ares I is being designed to lift 56,500 pounds to low Earth orbit. But ATK also is studying upgrades that could add another 9,910 pounds to that capability. Those include higher operating pressure in the motor, an increased throat diameter, a shift to HTBP propellant from the PBAN used on the NASA systems, and a graphite composite case.

GCNRevenger · 2008-04-10 19:00:48

When you don't need the structural margins and redundant systems for a 0.05% risk-of-death rocket, you can afford to bump up the performance quite a bit I'll bet.

cIclops · 2008-04-11 02:32:39

The primary mass saving would be from not having a LAS. Reductions in structural margins from about 40% to 20% would also be significant. The change of SRB propellant grain and higher internal pressure have been approved for Ares V and will be available for Ares I.

cIclops · 2008-04-13 11:44:00

Ares I-X Upper Stage Mass Simulator at Glenn Research Center's Fabrication Shop

T-minus 367 days

BY TODD HALVORSON • FLORIDA TODAY • April 13, 2008
A year-long push to NASA's first Ares 1 test-flight will pick up at Kennedy Space Center this week as the agency continues marching toward an American return to the moon.
Standing an astonishing 327 feet tall, NASA's Ares 1-X rocket is scheduled to leap off launch pad 39B a year from Tuesday, speeding out over the Atlantic on a mission aimed at testing vital flight control systems.
Preparations for the flight already are rocketing along, and those involved with the $320 million project expect the remaining time to fly by.
"You're going to blink your eyes and it's going to be gone," said Carol Scott, KSC's Ares 1-X project manager. "I don't think I've ever been involved with a project that has moved this fast."
Added NASA lead Ares 1-X ground systems engineer Jon Cowart: "We've got a lot to do, and a very short time to do it."
The Ares 1-X mission will be the first of four test flights slated to be carried out under a $1.8 billion contract to design, develop and test the rocket's first stage: a five-segment solid rocket booster derived from the space shuttle system. It's also the first high-profile demonstration of a critical piece of the new U.S. space transportation system set to replace the space shuttles, carrying astronauts to orbit by 2015 and the moon by 2020.
The inaugural test flight scheduled for April 15, 2009, will employ a four-segment shuttle booster topped with an empty fifth segment and replicas of an Ares 1 second stage, Orion spacecraft and Launch Abort System.
"It's made to look a lot like the Ares 1 vehicle, but it's a very different animal," said NASA lead ground operations engineer Tassos Abadiotakis, 41, of Cape Canaveral.
The mass simulators atop the test model will sport outer mold lines that are aerodynamically exact copies of the rest of the Ares 1 rocket and Orion spacecraft.
The idea of the suborbital test flight is to see whether first-stage flight control systems will keep the slender "single stick" on course -- and intact -- during the crucial first two minutes of flight.
"This thing is a long, skinny rocket," said Scott of Merritt Island. "Some folks compare it to a noodle, so we want to make sure that we are able to have the flight control in place to go fly it properly."
The system that separates the first and second stages will be tested along with the parachutes that lower the first to the ocean's surface.
"We're also going to get some aerodynamics data, some thermal data -- just the basic rocketry laws to make sure what we're proposing to go fly for Ares 1 actually is going to perform as advertised," Abadiotakis said.
The test comes amid concerns expressed by congressional auditors about whether the Ares and Orion development projects are on track.
The Government Accountability Office reported earlier this month that both projects could be delayed several years by technical problems, although NASA categorized all of the issues as typical of rocket and spacecraft development projects. In particular, GAO noted a vibration problem with the Ares 1 rocket. NASA has since said it identified several options for fixing that problem.
The year leading up to the test flight will serve as a pathfinder for Ares 1 ground operations and launch processing.
A high-efficiency paperless processing system will be put through the paces as NASA assembles the largest rocket to be rolled out of the Vehicle Assembly Building since the last Saturn 5 moon rocket in late 1972.
"Seeing the Ares 1-X launch vehicle sitting on the launch pad next year is just going to be an awesome experience," said Mike Kahn, vice president of space launch systems for booster manufacturer Alliant Techsystems.
"This is just an incredible opportunity -- to be able to get the program going and being the pathfinder for it. I'm really excited," Scott said.
"I'm way too busy to have butterflies," said Cowart of Titusville. "We're going to go do this, and we're going to make it."

RedStreak · 2008-04-13 13:58:10

Gez Ares 1-X...already?!

Man they are getting serious for Constellation alright. Hopefully both the pad abort and the 1-X together will provide engineers some solid data and confirm the control/abort systems work.

It'll also be awesome to see, even if its mostly a test dummy booster, a new huge rocket come crawling out of the VAB. 8)

cIclops · 2008-04-13 16:38:51

Yep T-367 days Getting flight experience is worth gigabytes of documents and ppts, real data is the only true test of the design models. The fifth segment is dummy, the other four will make a lot of noise when it launches!

It will be another fours years after I-X before the first full up test flight in March 2013 unless more funding comes through soon.

gaetanomarano · 2008-04-15 19:18:41

.

the Ares 1-X is an expensive, late and nearly useless test, since, if it will work well, that can't give any assurance that (also) the COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SRB-5 Ares-1 will really work, while, if it fails, the full ESAS plan should restart from ZERO and (both) the first Orion orbital flight and the first Altair landing will be delayed (at least) to 2020 (the first) and 2025 (the latter)

.

RedStreak · 2008-04-15 23:24:15

.
the Ares 1-X is an expensive, late and nearly useless test

Hardly. We're talking a full-size vehicle and while you may have a point with only 4 working segments this is like a life-size windtunnel test under even more realistic conditions!

You had talked before (or more like whined) using 4 segmented boosters because the technology was available, well this is using what's available to do a test NOW to get some real information on how this thing'll fly.

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#526 2008-03-26 22:07:02

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#527 2008-03-27 08:07:13

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#528 2008-03-31 14:31:47

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#529 2008-04-03 06:10:15

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#530 2008-04-03 06:34:21

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#531 2008-04-03 13:33:15

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#532 2008-04-03 13:56:32

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#533 2008-04-03 22:27:01

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#534 2008-04-03 23:55:09

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#535 2008-04-04 08:13:08

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#536 2008-04-04 10:36:39

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#537 2008-04-04 11:24:59

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#538 2008-04-04 11:49:11

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#539 2008-04-04 12:40:36

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#540 2008-04-04 13:50:55

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#541 2008-04-04 15:21:30

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#542 2008-04-10 12:51:47

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#543 2008-04-10 17:26:35

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

#544 2008-04-10 19:00:48

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#545 2008-04-11 02:32:39

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#546 2008-04-13 11:44:00

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#547 2008-04-13 13:58:10

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#548 2008-04-13 16:38:51

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#549 2008-04-15 19:18:41

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#550 2008-04-15 23:24:15

Re: Ares I (CLV) - status

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