Stay away for the concept of setting up an Empire and go with the nation state idea. If we go with the idea of setting up an Empire and then intend to loot Mars after we colonize it, then war is inevitable and will have to be fought some time in the future. This is the monetarist view of the world and ownership by a few people over the many or property right and by another name, it called slavery in one form or another. Here where the land lords will fight to protect there property and tenets will fight to defend there right from those tyrants the land lords who own everything at the expense of the general population on Mars. It is for this reason that the American revolution happened and we will see it happen again on Mars if we get Mars sufficiently colonized with enough people and industrialized sufficiently.

However, if we go out with the nation state concept of rule where every one equal and we state from the get go that the future population on Mars has right over those land lords on earth. Better yet, that they have dominion over there own habitats or colonies right from the get go. That would mean that we get completely away from the current concept of wealth that most people have right now and go back to the concept of the American economic system of wealth. It based on government generated credit vs private generated credit. Where the government invest in building infrastructure and financing the development of new technologies. Where it make sense to use private corporation to do certain things, then use them, but otherwise it base on the General Welfare of the people of Mars and according to a Constitution to protect those rights. Anybody that doesn't want to operate under these rules, refuse to do business with them or even outlaw those business that don't want to operate by these rules.

You can't let them operate outside of these rules for 50 to 100 years and then tell them that these are the rules that they will have to now honor or we will seize there property from them. The South considered Black Slave there Property and they refused to turn them loose. We fought an American Civil war as a consequence of there actions. It is best to not even start down that road right from the beginning and go with the nation state with there right declared right up front and what we intend to accomplish. Slavery in the South was constantly putting a strain on whether the United States would continue down the path of being a nation state or would even continue to be a nation even.

Larry,

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-09-02 08:25:49

You presume that its the government's job to protect the people from tyrannical private businesses. The other side of the coin is that governments can be tyrannical too. The question is are individual people going to be allowed to make their own decisions in their own best interests, or is government going to do it for them?

I look at the world today and in most instances where the few lord it over the many, those few are in government, they set up legal situations where the talented can't rise and improve themselves economically outside of government channels and government takes a big cut and enriches the well-connected at the expense of those contributing the most to the economy.

The best role for government is that of an impartial referee to regulate the activities of private businesses and citizens so as to minize friction between them. I reject the Red Mars/Green Mars/Blue Mars politics of Kim Stanley Robinson, he makes caricatures of private corporations, especially in Blue Mars, large corporations are nothing like what he describes, they don't have their own private militaries, and they have to operate legally within the bounds of the law.

The closest thing there is now to what Kim Stanley Robinson described is what we have now in Russia under Putin's Petro-state, but here the government is clearly in control, it is not an impartial referee, but it is manipulating the laws and how they are enforced to force many petroluem companies into bankrupcy despite record high oil prices and force them to be aquired by Gazprom, a mega corporation whose growth was fostered by the Russian government with Vladimir Putin at the helm. Gazprom is simply corporate camoflage for government nationalizing the oil industry.

Corporations only exist at the sufference of governments that allow them to exist, they can accumulate great wealth only so long as government allows them to do so for they are legal entities. The economy benefits when governments allow private corporations to exist, it grows faster than state directed economies, as typically politics drives the decisions on what government investments need to be made. There is a calculation of "jobs created in my district" vs returns on investment, and sometimes "jobs created in my district" wins and money is spent inefficiently.

Corporations can't play political games as easily as governments can; as corporations play by the government's rules, and governments play by their own rules.

If government says, "You'd better build a pyramid for the great Emperor, or you will die," then you'd better do what the government says to stay alive, even though that may be a great waste of your talents and capabilities.

Martian Republic · 2007-09-03 09:41:54

Tom Kalbfus, you have a very simplistic view of what the roll of government, private business or the super rich people that operate in that roll of private business and/or the big banking interest that operate the government from the back room. This is basically the Imperial modal of government where one Empire will attack another Empire or suppress there own people to serve there own vanity or to maintain control over there own populations. They want to be top dog even if they destroy there own country or use the lower class or the working class in useless wars and such. An example of this type of government or being controlled by major company of a government would be the British Empire and the East India Company. The East India Company had there own armies and basically ran the British Empire and they even controlled the British government and even directed which laws would be made and who would benefit by those laws. They were the primary beneficiaries of those British laws that favored there Private Corporation. Even today, the Lords of London will put into a contract that they can only be tried in the British court system and not in any other court system or any other country where they may be doing business in. Which is basically a violation of that nations sovereignty and they even do that in the United States where they do a lot of business. There were several places in the United States where Lords of London has engaged in fraudulent insurance business and several states inside the United States has gone after Lords of London and they basically gave them the finger. They showed the the contract that say they can only be tried in Great Britain and not inside the United States where crime was committed and they did commit crime too. They wanted it to be tried it Great Britain where they would have sympathetic judge that would let them off the hook and give them the verdict that they wanted to have instead of being held accountable for the crime they committed.

The roll of a government that controlled by the people instead of this super rich or oligarchical controlling the government. Here where the US Constitution come into play. There is no government that functions by itself. That government is either controlled by this financial elite or it has to be controlled by the people of that nation and there is no third alternative control of any government that has ever existed on planet Earth or ever will exist on planet earth or in space either. Governments aren't self existing, but are an expression of either this financial Oligarchy or of people of that nation. Most government of this world were formed around the Oligarchy control of that government and generally make the laws according to suit there interest. The US Government and the US Constitution was not originally oriented to this financial interest of the Oligarchical. Now this financial Oligarchy has intruded into the US Government and has subverted the US Government to serve there interest, but it wasn't that way in the beginning. If this were not so, then we would not see things like Enron, Hallibutan, Blackwater private security teem which is basically the beginning a of private army again. But, in a Republic form of government, it isn't in the interest of the people to go around and invade other countries like Iraq or Afghanistan. Those are the things that Empires do and not a Republic. If George Bush doesn't stop doing what he is doing, then the United States will be transformed into an Empire, which we don't want and laws of the United States will be altered too and away from benefiting the people of the Untied States. The only that the vast majority of mankind can benefit in this world or off this world in space is to have a government that has been setup to guarantee those rights or the financial Oligarchy will setup there government that will guarantee there advantage at the expense of the vast majority.

Are the vast majority of the people going to have to depend of there government to defend there rights?

Absolutely, but it has to be a government that they setup and not a government that this financial Oligarchy has setup to rule over these people.

Down through the history of man, these two faction have been fighting each other and that why we have had so many wars down through the Century. Any government that has ever existed has been controlled by one of the two faction.

If you don't believe that it this way, them do a history study of the British Empire and new Young American Republic as it was setup and see if you can see difference between the two. There banking system were different, there concept of what wealth was, was different. The effects that it had on there own population were different, one suppressed human development and other promoted human development. One of them, suppressed technological development and the other advanced technological development. Matter of fact, if the one that supported the advancement of new technologies had never existed, then we would not be having this discussion of colonizing Mars right now, because it would not be technologically possible to do it. Beside, there would be no internet by which we could share these ideas or have our discussion, because this was also an out growth of that development.

Larry,

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-02 13:31:47

Larry, don't you realize that there are forms of power besides financial? Under the old Soviet System, there was political connections, the government employed all the means of production, and the people put in charge where put in charge based on their political connections with the leaders of government. The Leaders of government also made sure that all their friends and cronies were well taken care of so they wouldn't overthrow them. The press was controlled, dissent was not tollerated, and consumers could only consume what the government provided for them, and if they didn't like it, tough!

Not in a private system if a corporation is defrauding you, you simply cease to do business with that corporation and you conduct your business with another corporation. The corporations compete with each other you see. What you fail to consider is that corporations compete with each other. The only corporations you talk about are the monopolistic corporations that put out a product which no other corporation produces and if you don't like it tough.

You see oil, for instance was alot more abundant coming from the Middle East when it was under the control of private corporationgs competing against each other OPEC put a stop to that, and has tried to maniupulate the price of oil by cornering the supply. Now I'd rather have the free market running things in Saudi Arabia rather than Government Owned Corporations that do now. I don't see why you consider government owned businesses to be superior to privately owned ones. I think the private ones are run better and provide more for the consumer than governments do.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-02 14:53:27

...
The roll of a government that controlled by the people instead of this super rich or oligarchical controlling the government.

Was Stalin rich? Did he buy his way into power? Were there financial backers behind the scene? How about Chairman Mao?. The trouble with you is that you have difficulty imagining any sort of power beyond "people power" or the "almighty dollar". What you forget is that there is also the power of the gun pointed at your head. Lenin, Stalin, Castro, and Mao were all put into power by the power of the gun. An inconvenient truth really when you trying to make your case that America is an "Evil Capitalistic Empire". Your still fighting the Cold War from the other side. The government is only answerable to the people when certain checks and balances are in place. One check on power that comes into play is the power of the purse, you as the buyer get to choose who you by from, either "Evil Corporation A" or "Evil Corporation B". If "Evil Corporation B" is less Evil to you, you are going to buy B's product unless your stupid. I don't think any of the corporations in Red Mars/Green Mars/Blue Mars are any of the sort I would buy from. If they are building armies and causing havoc and destruction, I'd have no reason to give them my money unless I was stupid. Each Corporation is a check on the other Corporation's bad behavior. If one corporation tries to rob you blind or sell you a bad product, the other corporation will say they have a better deal for you, because they want your business. The assumption under capitalism is a number of corporations competing against each other under a "level playing field". Anything else is not really the Free Market, and instead of complaining about the free market and greedy private interests and the Superrich, you should be complaining about Monopolies which are really the onces giving you trouble and staeling your money hand over fist.

When you assume a monopoly, then there must be some mechanism that keeps other compedators from competing. What you must then do is simply remove the mechanism that mantains one corporation's monopoly over one sector of the market and the other competing interests will be drawn in by the huge profit margin the former monopoly was realizing and competition will drive the profits and the prices charged consumers down.

The problem Larry is that you are throwing out the "baby with the bathwater," you criticise the whole system rather than the bad players and situations within that system. Most corporations deal honestly and fairly, because they want your business and want to sell you their product, they can't charge you whatever the hell they want because they know you can go to some other company if they do. It is only if they corner you that they can charge their monopoly prices, but most companies can't do that. What you speak of is the rare exception rather than the rule of the marketplace. If it were otherwise then Capitalistic economies wouldn't be the most efficient in the World. It is indeed those countries where the free market doesn't operat so well and where alot of monopolies exist that are often poor and "Third World". Some of these monopolies are also the government. Castro has made his country poor by insisting on running everything, producing everything and hiring everyone in his country. It is not an efficient country and their are monopolies everywhere, the government is not protecting the people, it is exploiting them, their labors and giving them no choice in the market place.

If you say government can protect the people from greedy corporations, who is going to protect you from the government? There is no checks and balances in Cuba, all power comes from the top and from the gun. The government is not working for you, you are instead working for it, the Government and Castro is boss, somehow I do not think that is the best thing for the people.

Here where the US Constitution come into play. There is no government that functions by itself. That government is either controlled by this financial elite or it has to be controlled by the people of that nation and there is no third alternative control of any government that has ever existed on planet Earth or ever will exist on planet earth or in space either.

It appears that I have just mentioned one. Any good Marxist will always want to direct your attention to the financial elites and not to the guerillas with guns in the field. If you have a suitcase packed with millions of dollars in currency and their is a guerilla pointing a gun to your head asking you for it, your going to give it to him aren't you. Either that or he'll kill you and take it anyway. The guerilla has nothing but his gun and some bullets and you have nothing but your money. So you tell me, why does the Guerilla get your money instead of you buying his gun off of him. The money in your suitcase is worth way more than they gun he's carrying. If your theory about finance being the only power besides people power is true, then you can just buy the guerilla's gun at a fair price and then shoot him with it, but in the real world, its usually the guerilla that shoots you and takes your money, he's a bandit really.

Governments aren't self existing, but are an expression of either this financial Oligarchy or of people of that nation.

There you go again, completely ignoring the power of the gun. The guerilla holding the gun is just one person and your just one person, and he wants your money, I see no people power or financial wizardry at work here. The guerilla holds the third kind of power, the power to take your life if you don't do what he says.

Most government of this world were formed around the Oligarchy control of that government and generally make the laws according to suit there interest. The US Government and the US Constitution was not originally oriented to this financial interest of the Oligarchical. Now this financial Oligarchy has intruded into the US Government and has subverted the US Government to serve there interest, but it wasn't that way in the beginning.

I'm a student of the American Revolution, and it just so happens that George Washington was one of the richest men at the time, he had alot of slaves and was a Gentleman Farmer and plantation owner, he also was a surveyor and a military officer with the Colonial militia. Part of the impetus behind the American Revolution was the clash of monied interestes, one in Great Britian and one in the American Colonies. The Rich guys in the Colonies were complaining because the tax acts were benefitting the monied interests in Great Britian to the detriment of the upperclass in the colonies. The Founding Fathers were for the most part rich men of influence, they believed the democratic form of government was in their best interests, because it allowed them to compete on an "even playing field" and it didn't put someone in power to rule over them. Of course to beat the British, they needed an Army, and since there were not enough rich people to man such an army, they had to appeal to the common sort of people, and Democracy made a good recruiting tool. And so by helping themselves they also advanced the cause of democracy in the World.

If this were not so, then we would not see things like Enron, Hallibutan, Blackwater private security teem which is basically the beginning a of private army again.

Enron is extinct, it no longer exists because of its bad management and the fact that it tried to be a bad corporate player and got caught, mostly what it di was defraud it investors.

But, in a Republic form of government, it isn't in the interest of the people to go around and invade other countries like Iraq or Afghanistan. Those are the things that Empires do and not a Republic.

Your ignoring quite a few things here. Mosy governments will try to defend themselves even a Republic, and if your memory is a bit foggy, there was a thing called the 9/11 attack that was perpetrated by terrorists that were harbored by the Afghan Government which was then run by the Taliban. To reduce this threat we needed to invade a few countries, just like we dealt with Pearl Harbor. When a country attacks us, we attack back!

If George Bush doesn't stop doing what he is doing, then the United States will be transformed into an Empire, which we don't want and laws of the United States will be altered too and away from benefiting the people of the Untied States.

If other countries don't want to be a part of our "Empire" they should stop attacking us, if they don't then we have to do something about them if we want to survive.

The only that the vast majority of mankind can benefit in this world or off this world in space is to have a government that has been setup to guarantee those rights or the financial Oligarchy will setup there government that will guarantee there advantage at the expense of the vast majority.

Space offers freedom from government, if you are out there in space with few people to worry about, you don't need a government looking over your shoulder and giving you orders. When there are few people, it is just individuals.

Are the vast majority of the people going to have to depend of there government to defend there rights?
Absolutely, but it has to be a government that they setup and not a government that this financial Oligarchy has setup to rule over these people.
Down through the history of man, these two faction have been fighting each other and that why we have had so many wars down through the Century. Any government that has ever existed has been controlled by one of the two faction.
If you don't believe that it this way, them do a history study of the British Empire and new Young American Republic as it was setup and see if you can see difference between the two. There banking system were different, there concept of what wealth was, was different. The effects that it had on there own population were different, one suppressed human development and other promoted human development. One of them, suppressed technological development and the other advanced technological development. Matter of fact, if the one that supported the advancement of new technologies had never existed, then we would not be having this discussion of colonizing Mars right now, because it would not be technologically possible to do it. Beside, there would be no internet by which we could share these ideas or have our discussion, because this was also an out growth of that development.
Larry,

Competition encourages technological development and monopolies supresses it. If a government has a firm grip on power and can direct financial relationships however it likes, then those people trying to compete and who have new ideas will be locked out and those in power will want to maintian their stable relationships that underpin their power over others, most see new technologies as a destabilizing influence which threatens their power by changing the economic reality that secures their influence over society. Capitalism is all about dynamic instability, change and technological progress, and then frightens many people, perhaps even yourself. People often prefer certainty and the known over the unknown, even though the unknown might be better, but they hate to chance it.

Martian Republic · 2007-10-02 21:49:27

Tom Kalbfus, what you don't understand is that the Federal Reserve is also a corporation with stocks and it is also owned by other corporations. They are primarily by other big banks based primarily in Europe. Who ever control the credit, control the health and welfare of that nation. The top dog of this financial club is the Rothschilds and the city of London financial center. This is known as a Monitorist System of Banking. It is not based on a free market system of economics. Matter of fact, there is no such thing and a free market of economics. It is a figment of the imagination of some monitorist to convince us that the market place is setting the price of what we by, when in fact, there gaming the markets or bilking to there own good. An example of them gaming the market or bilking them is Enron and the energy crises in California. It was Enron executive that wrote the deregulation laws of electricity for California. Then after they were signed into law, they and other energy companies like Dynagee, El Paso Gas other energy companies raised the rate of electricity ten time, hundred times with spot shortages that ran the price of electricity over thousand time of what it was before the electricity was deregulated. Matter of fact, most of the prices in the Market place are artificially raised and lowered by this financial oligarchy. Another example is the oil that is controlled by this group. When they want the prices to go up, they raise it and when they want the price to go down they lower it and the market forces has absolutely nothing to do with prices going up or down. An example of the oil price going up and down on cue is during an American election year. Before the election, the price of oil go down and after the election the prices go back up again. And we continue to buy the oil and from the same people that are price fixing the oil too. Of course there no other place we can buy our oil, so we shut up and buy.

Most of those people, were financed by this oligarchy to thwart the American revolution and to keep it from spreading. Because, they feared the American revolution and ideas that it was based on.

George Washington was fairly well of, is true, but he was nowhere near being one of the richest men in the world. I don't know where you got that lie.

The American System of Economics is based on a credit system. Instead of having private central bank and have it controlled by a rich financial elite or oligarchy group or people, the bank that was the First National Bank of the United States was owned and operated by the United States. Instead of having a private central bank generating credit to the benefit of this financial elite, we have government owned banking system generating credit to the benefit of the American people. Instead of letting those banking interest generate credit and then charge us interest to use that money they generated out of thin air, the US Government generated the credit and had first use of it and used it to build infrastructure inside the United States. This was the primary mechanism for transforming the United Stated from a former colony and into a world power.

Larry,

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-02 22:39:27

Would you be happier if the US Government didn't tax you and simply ran the Fed and ordered it to print as much money as needed?

The Federal Reserve has limited power, its primary responsibility is to protect the value of the dollar and keep inflation in check.

Inflation, you see is a tax on wealth. Wereas the US Government taxes income normally, were it to rely on the Fed's expansion of the money supply to fund its program, the government would effectively be taxing every dollar you've saved rather than just your income for a given year. I don't know why you'd rather have the government rely on Inflation Financing to balance its budget, but I wouldn't want my savings taxed every year and made smaller and smaller by the eroding value of the dollar. The reason why the Fed is insulated from the electorate is so that electorate doesn't pressure them to expand the money supply and create inflation. The Fed occasionally has to cause recessions in order to reduce inflation. Recessions aren't very popular but are sometimes necessary, the Fed needs a free hand to do unpopular things sometimes to defend the dollar, that is the reason for the Fed.

Martian Republic · 2007-10-04 19:36:31

Would you be happier if the US Government didn't tax you and simply ran the Fed and ordered it to print as much money as needed?

This question demonstrate you ignorance of the US Constitution and of American history and the real reason or primary reason that we fought the American Revolution against the British Empire.

First the US Constitution Article One, Section Eight.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

Just encase you don't think that this should includes a Central Bank that is owned and operated by the US Government. George Washington with Alexander Hamilton Guidance setup up the First National Bank using this as there Authority to do just that. They also setup a Second National Bank when they departed from this system, but returned to it. But, first you need to understand why this was put into the US Constitution in the first place. To do that, you have to go back 100 years or more before the Massachusetts Colony way setup and what has happened since then until the writing of the US Constitution when they put it in there. The leader of the Puritan went to the New King of England to get a charter for the Massachusetts Colony. New King in that he had just seized power and was looking for allies and was very accommodating to the Puritan Leader. The Puritan Leader asked for the right to generate credit and coin money. The King either did not know what he was asking or didn't care, but he grants the request in the Massachusetts Charter to that effect. After the Common Wealth of the Massachusetts Bay colony has been setup, they start using that right to generate credit, because they didn't have either gold or silver to coin money with. So they use there right to generate credit and after a few experiments, found out what worked best for them. So Massachusetts Colony begins to propers and even eclipses the business activities of England, because of what there doing. After awhile there is an invasion of England from Normandy and the House of Winsor take power and makes agreement with Wells and Scotland's and Great Britain is created. What it was, was a take over of England by this financial Oligarch that took over the Bank of England and put it under there rule along with West India Company which actually control Great Britain and not being controlled by the British People. Once they got control over Great Britain which include England, Wells, Scotland, they then turned there sight on the thirteen colonies in North America and primarily on the Massachusetts Bay Colony. They took away there self rule and recended the right to generate credit by the Common Wealth of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. They clamped down on the credit and bankrupted most of industry in Massachusetts. Massachusetts had there own steel mills and things like that and they were all bankrupted by these new policies. The people of Massachusetts tried to work to make things better in Massachusetts, but this financial Oligarchy refused to budge and insisted on trying to swash them under there feet instead. This was just after the French and Indian War or about forty years before the American Revolution. So it was the children of these people that saw there business bankrupted by this British Financial Oligarchy that fought in the American Revolution. Two third of the Continental Army came from Massachusetts. That is the reason that they fought so hard to get rid of the British and Private control of the money system.

Now back to why they choose to setup the Second National Bank. Under Jefferson, he privatized the Central Bank and a guy from Switzerland Banking Concerns was setup over that Bank. Once that faction got a hold of Central Bank of the United States again, they started doing the same thing to the United States that they were doing to those thirteen colonies of suppressing the credit or using that credit that was harmful to the best interest of the American People. Faction behind Lafayette who were in France were making inroads to the King of France with these American Ideas of governing a nation. To contain American concept of government and of there banking system, Great Britain staged a revolution in France that started out looking like the American Revolution, but turned ugly real soon. The British in there arrogance thought that they could raid American Ship to recruit men to fight there war against France. Besides they thought there Man from Switzerland that ran the Central Bank of the United States had sufficiently done his job of taring up the economy of the United States. And he had done a good job of taring up the US Economy too, but, we had our Ace in the hole. A modal of how you setup a Government Banking System and finance the rebuilding of the United States. Great Britain tried to invade the United States and crush there enemy and then make us a colony of Great Britain again. We won the war of 1812 and sometimes refereed to as the Second American Revolution.

The Federal Reserve has limited power, its primary responsibility is to protect the value of the dollar and keep inflation in check.

Actually, this statement isn't true.

The real reason the the Federal Reserve was created, was to give this same Financial Oligarchy the control over the US Central Bank Again. All other reason for why they say that the Federal Reserve was created, is pure hog wash and nothing but hog wash. This process of creating the Federal Reserve originated in Great Britain by King Edwards at the turn of the Twentieth Century. With the Assassination of our President, we got Teddy Roosevelt who served to British interest inside the United States. They were unable to get the Federal Reserve Act in under Teddy Roosevelt, but the wheels were greased to do it under a latter President. Now the Federal Reserve was created in 1913 under Wilson I believe. Now the Federal Reserve has the right to generate credit, which it does. When it creates that create, it loans it back to us and charges us interest on it. Now the only way that we can pay the Federal Reserve back and those Financial Oligarchs that own the Federal Reserve, is to borrow more credit or money generated out of thin air and go deeper into debt. At some point, the only way that you can keep borrowing money from the Federal Reserve and keep paying higher dollar amounts back to the Federal Reserve System and there membered Banks that own the Federal Reserve is to depreciate the US Dollar. So the very nature of having a Federal Reserve System is inflationary by it very Nature of Existence and does nothing to cure inflation at all. The Federal Reserve is currently generating trillions of dollars worth of credit right now and loaning it back into the US Economy. Now to help Finance the Federal Reserve, if not having the right to generate credit ware not sufficient to keep there system going, you pay your Federal Taxes to the Federal Reserve Bank, not the US Government. The Federal Reserve takes the Federal Taxes of the United States, pays itself and it membered banks and then give what left over to the Federal Government of the United States. To guarantee that you will pay a private bank by the name of the Federal Reserve Bank, they setup the IRS also in 1913 to force you to pay them.

After the Federal Reserve Act that put that bank in as the Central Bank of the United States, Wall Street went crazy and the financial speculation took off and in 1929 we had a depression. Sixteen year after the enactment of the Federal Reserve Act. We were saved by Franklin Roosevelt New Deal. He went back to Abraham Lincoln giving the Treasure Department the Authority to generate credit. It was these Treasury Notes that the Greenback dollars were based on that Lincoln used to finance the Civil War and to rebuild the United States after the Civil War and to touch of an industrial revolution too. So Franklin used that method to generate cheap credit with simple interest to finance all those infrastructural projects during the depression and it was this action of Franklin that restarted the US Economy. He had to go outside the Federal Reserve System to save the United States from Economic collapse and it was those Financial Oligarchs and there control of the Federal Reserve that was Franklin primary opposition to restarting the US Economy. So he had to regulate the Federal Reserve System so they could not stop him saving the United States from economic collapse. Franklin had to have his own credit that he could control and direct where it going to go and what it going to be used for and who going to get that credit. Treasury Notes served that purpose just fine.

The Federal Reserve has already generated ten of trillions of credit and maybe even a hundred trillion dollars or more of credit since it been created and it all is demanding an interest be payed on it too. There was a time that we use to drive into Canada along the border to buy fuel from them, but, now the Canadians come to the US to buy fuel because of the exchange rate. So much for the Federal Reserve stopping inflation and protecting the US Dollars Value.

Inflation, you see is a tax on wealth. Wereas the US Government taxes income normally, were it to rely on the Fed's expansion of the money supply to fund its program, the government would effectively be taxing every dollar you've saved rather than just your income for a given year. I don't know why you'd rather have the government rely on Inflation Financing to balance its budget, but I wouldn't want my savings taxed every year and made smaller and smaller by the eroding value of the dollar. The reason why the Fed is insulated from the electorate is so that electorate doesn't pressure them to expand the money supply and create inflation. The Fed occasionally has to cause recessions in order to reduce inflation. Recessions aren't very popular but are sometimes necessary, the Fed needs a free hand to do unpopular things sometimes to defend the dollar, that is the reason for the Fed.

The Federal Reserve isn't insulated against anything, since it is the same type of speculators that set the policy that caused the great depression. So, they will be just as bad as the Government or even worse than the US Government when it come to deciding how much credit to generate and what it going to be used for. The truth of the matter is, we will have to generate hundreds of billions of dollars a year no matter who owns the Central Bank of the United States. The only thing that we are deciding is who going to generate it and what that credit going to be use for, is all we are deciding. If a few hundred billion dollars weren't generated every year, the US Economy would implode on itself.

I would like to give you a quot from a famous man of the past.

I don't care who runs the government as long as I control the banks.

Rothschilds.

Now you claim that the Federal Reserve is suppose to keep the inflation in check, which obviously can't be true, but I am going to attack that problem from another direction to show you the fallacy of your argument.

In dollar amounts, ten years ago, I was making $21.90 an hour. I use to work in a machine shop with good benefits too.

So you say that the Federal Reserve needs to have the right to do unpopular things to defend the dollar.

But, today, that factory is shut down and that job has been moved overseas. I currently make about $11.00 an hour with poor benefits. By the time you factor in inflation, I am only making maybe $7.00 or $8.00 an hour of what I was making ten years ago. And the benefits. Well forget that! Because, they stink!

I am not the only one that is suffering from this problem either. There are tens of millions of Americans that are in the same boat that I am in, but they don't own there house free and clear like I do. They don't own there own cars free and clear like I do. They have two or three children to feed, but I don't and they could not live on $11.00 dollars an hour. So there out of luck and have no where to turn as they become homeless and become street people.

This is how the Federal Reserve supposedly fights inflation. By causing our factories to close down and shutting own our farms and letting the infrastructure inside the United States collapse, like the bridge in Minneapolis on W35 freeway.

And you think this is OK!

Why?

To me it looks just like what they did to the Massachusetts or what they did to us in 1812 or what they did to us before the Civil War or what FDR had to deal with to save the United States in the Great Depression.

This is what it looks like to me and we don't need the Federal Reserve serving up there poison to us for supposedly our own interest, because our interest isn't there interest and never will be our interest.

Larry,

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-05 09:22:29

Well I have a degree in Economics and Computer Science from Pace University, but I have had trouble getting and keeping a job in those fields. Perhaps because my proffessors were patient with me, and offered some extra help, and I passed the courses got my degree. The problem was, when I got hired, I didn't learn the requirements of the job before I got fired. I believe I have something called Aspergers Syndrome, a mild for of autism or so they tell me. I have been used to a structed classroom setting, but I have difficulty in multi-tasking or in picking up skills on the fly or learning stuff through "osmosis" as other employees are often expected to do, and it is often boring stuff besides. Because of my needs to earn a living and support my family, I have ended up working as a chauffer, driving rich people, and some famous celebrities to various locations, even someone named Robert F. Kennedy Junior, but being descrete I don't get into political discussions with him while I'm driving.

I figure I'm underemployed, but I have yet to find the right career that I'm perfectly suited for. I need an employer who'd be patient enough with me while I learn the skills required to do the job, but so far I haven't found that employer yet, so until that happens I work as a chauffer, not earning nearly enough. I live with my grandmother, who's 91 years old and needs help, my uncle also helps out paying the rent and so forth. Mostly what my income goes for is groceries, car payments, paying nursery school tuition for my three-year old. I doubt there is any Fed policy that can help me, its not a problem of mental retardation on my part, I've heard that a certain lady astronaut who was involved in a love triangle also had aspergers, she was also accused of planning to murder her rival, and other strange behavior such as wearing a diaper while she drove from Texas to Florida, but that's neither her nor there, the point is she made it into the astronaut corps and flew on the Shuttle. There is little the Federal Reserve can do to help me, I don't believe my employment problems are something I can blame on the Federal Reserve or on economic conditions, as I have suffered through both good times and bad, and I don't have the luxury that you have for blaming my troubles on someone else, perhaps some employers that didn't give me a break, but thats about it. I don't pay much attention to the economy any more, because boom or bust, I still have the same problem. I can hold on to my chauffer job for a long time and I get to meet interesting people, and I read plenty of books between trips, it just doesn't pay very much, it averages to around $10 per hour, although I get paid on a per trip basis, suffice to say it is not enough for me to be self-supporting. I did get a B-average in my economics class though, and my father was an economist. The Federal Reserve was created by an act of Congress and is in fact a government agency, the banks have some input on how the Fed is run because that is where the expertise is, but the President appoints the Fed Chairman, it is designed to be somewhat removed from national politics and the popular pressures to expand the money supply. I don't think getting a paycheck with lots of zeros on it is going to do me much good if I can only by the same things I could before with less money, what it does do is erode my savings. My problem is not the Federal Reserve being too stingy with credit, money is just paper after all, and printing more paper doesn't any of us any more wealthy, but if my savings cannot retain its value and if I have to go buy something as soon as I get paid to preserve the value of my paycheck, I consider that a serious problem, so no I don't want the Federal Reserve handing out millions of dollars to everybody.

Martian Republic · 2007-10-05 17:36:37

The way the Federal Reserve Chairman of the Board is picked, is by those membered banks choosing the man they want and then sending him to the President to be confirmed as the new Federal Reserve Chairman. Now the President can reject there selection for the Chairman, but that doesn't usually happen.

The way the FDR New Deal worked, was by the Federal Government financing major infrastructural deals. You have to remember that over half the American people were unemployed and/or homeless when FDR came into office. He started off with works project of picking trash and then moved to building roads and rail roads. Restarting those factories that had been closed and financing the farmers so they could grow the food that we needed. Then he went to the four river project at the four corners of the United States. The rivers were the Columbia, Colorado, St. Lawrence and the Tennessee rivers. That why there are so many boundaries around the Columbia and Tennessee rivers, because they needed the power that was being generated from those government projects. That where the Hoover Dam came from and the Tennessee Valley Authority came from. It was a series of Dams and Hydro-electric Power plants the the US Government created and owned as a business. It was part of FDR rural electrification projects. When we got closer into where we were going to have to fight World War II, the US Government started even financing building of factories, because we were going to need those factories to build war material to fight Germany, Italy and Japan. This was how the United States was able to build four times as much war material that everybody else combined on either side of this war.

If your going to take people off the street and put them in jobs, like a factory job who don't know how to do that job, then you will have to train them. So FDR setup a job training program so these people could be trained to run those machines in the machine shop and turn out those new products. So FDR took people where ever they were and setup government backed training programs to get them up to speed so they could learn to manufacture those things that were need. It will take two to three years get these new people up to speed to manufacture good quality parts at a fairly low scrap rate. The first three to six months, you will have a high scrap rate and very poor quality parts that there making. But, over time, the scrap rate go down and the quality improve greatly. So the Government has to subsidize this process of training to those new employers that are being hired into his company. This is basically what FDR did in a nut shell and not going into too much detail of what was done.

What I favor in what I would like to see done is basically an FDR policy on steroids. Instead of just giving the Treasury Department the power to generate credit, put the Federal Reserve through a bankruptcy re-organization chapter 11 and have the Federal Government oversee it. Then have the President of the United States cancel those trillions of dollars of gambling debts that are unplayable and never could be paid and write it off the books. Money has two primary uses. To be used as a medium of exchange. And to be used to generate future business activities or growth of the physical economy of that nation and generally creating more wealth for that nation. With the farms and factories inside the United States being shut down, the US Dollars is no longer good for being used as a medium of exchange, because we are losing our farm crops and manufactured good that that money can be exchanged for. Once the rest of the world chooses to go to another money system, the US Dollars will have Zero value for exchanging goods and services. The Federal Reserve isn't generating any new wealth for the United States, but there only generating more debt and worthless gambling debts that will either have to be canceled or it will bring down the economic system in a worldwide depression of even send us into a new dark age that we won't get out of for hundred years or longer.

So we take that old Federal Reserve System which is bankrupt and re-organize it into the Third National Bank of the United States as a starting move to save the United States from economic collapse. The the President under the view of the congress will generate a couple of hundred billion to maybe a trillion dollars of credit to finance a rebuilding of the United States. We would also want to bring over the Social Security system from the old economic system into the new economic system that we are setting to replace it. There about five trillion dollars of I.O.U. in the Social Security System because it been raided by congress to fund other projects and they should not have used that account for that purpose. So we are going to sign into existence real money instead of putting in those I.O.U. into the Social Security System. We are going to do the same thing for Medicaid and Medicare too, which has three trillion dollars in it. That going to be our primary way of paying for your medical bill. Over half the people that go bankrupt, go bankrupt because of medical bill and those devastating diseases that come along. So we will let the government take care of that problem and they will get there money out of that fund to pay those medical bills. We will do away with those health care plans by those private insurance carrier where we Americans can't get adequate health care coverage anyway. The way they do it in Germany. You can still pick the Doctor you want to, but the US Government will pay for it. We would also want to save those private bank accounts of individual who have there money in those account. We also want to save those retirement accounts too that people working in those factories got and other places too and bring that into the new economy.

Now to restart this new economy, we have to do something productive like farming, manufacturing and building infrastructure and use that newly generated credit to finance it, because financial system destroyed the physical economy of the United States. So we are going to reverse this process by denying the speculator access to this new credit and finance the productive sector of the economy. This was exactly oppose to what they were doing.

So we pick farming, subway system, super train system, canal project and river project like FDR did for our target investment for restarting the US Economy. Amtrak needs levitated rail system to carry people from down town to down town of every American city fifty thousand or more. We need to upgrade any city that have old subways system with new subway system and add any city in America that has a population of over hundred thousand people in it. We have maybe 70 city that fall within that population range that we are going to be building subways in. We want those super train to inter-connect with those subway system and with the City Air Ports too. We also intend to extend FDR Dam, Hydro-Electric river project to all the major rivers in the United States.

There are many other such project that we want to do down here, but we also want a space program too. We want our space program to create millions of jobs and to generate new technologies that we can infuse into the US Economy. We want to pick a project just out side our technical capability to get it done, but not too far out side our capability to get it done. We want a project that we have to develop new technologies to get it done or we can't complete that project or hit our goals. So we decided that build a City on Mars of 100,000 people and do it in a time frame of forty to sixty period. We will probably have maybe 10,000 people on the moon too in addition to the city on Mars. We decided that we have to go to the moon first and build a mining and manufacturing facility there to hit our target of building a city on Mars in the time frame that we set out for our selfs. We also decided that we would have to have our ship yard on the moon to build those deep space space ship and then throw it off the moon using a three or four mile long sled to get it off the moon. As we advance in these new technologies to hit our target of a City on Mars, we will probably go through two or three generation of shuttle for the Earth to space orbit. We will probably go through two or three shuttle for the moon too and maybe even few generation for Mars also. Between the Earth, moon and Mars, we will probably need between two and three hundred shuttle of various generation and types. We also decided that we need about two hundred deep space space ship that can get to Mars in a 7 days or less period and go to Mars any time we want to go to Mars. So we have a lot of things to build and a time schedule to get it done in.

Your and Economist.

How would you pay for that?

In a Federal Reserve System, that would be impossible to do, because it too expensive to finance it and pay that interest back to those bank even for the US Government to do that.

However, if the US Government is borrowing that money from themselves and they have the right to generate all credit they need to finance that project and can do with that credit what they decide to do with it.

Then would it be possible to do something this big?

If such projects were taken on by the United States, it would take forty to sixty years to get it done even by us.

We would have to grow into doing something this big and retrain 70 to 80 percent of the US Population like FDR did and the Federal Government would have to subsidize that training too. Stating up front what it will take to complete the project and then figuring out how to do it, is what FDR did before and during World War II. That how America became know as the arsenal of Democracy. They started with there wish list of what they thought they needed to win the war and worked backward from there. Like they need 10,000 thousand air planes and they went down the list. After they compiled there list, they gasp at it. There first response was. How do you do that. Then they rolled up there sleeve and got at it and hit there target too.

Well, this is enough writing for now.

Larry,

Commodore · 2007-10-05 21:48:27

So long as man has to maintain freedom for not only himself, but for his inflated ego, he is bound to fight with others.

With that settled, we may as well create a new thread on how each major party in the US misuses the power of the government.

IF we can Constitutionally limit the role of government to set of clearly defined roles based around the pillars of modern civilization, and leave everything else alone, we might have a chance.

Terraformer · 2007-10-06 10:58:07

I thought this thread was about inter-planetary war.

Martian Republic · 2007-10-06 12:25:44

I thought this thread was about inter-planetary war.

Oh, it is about planetary war!

But, to stop it. You first have to identify what going to be causing that planetary war and who would be benefiting to having a planetary war. My contention is that we could never develop Mars in the present private central banking system that we currently have here on Earth, because they won't allow us to develop Mars who control that private banking system. If we do an end run around them and were able to develop Mars colony any way, then they would try to destroy Mars so they could maintain there control over Mankind. They will try to destroy Mars by using financial means or control over the credit So I am of the opinion that is we don't do away with this private central banking system, then if we ever do develop Mars, then a planetary war is inevitable and can't be stop, because that what the power that be want. It will be like the Iraq War, where 80% of the US Population don't want that war, but the power that be do want that war. So we are having that war in Iraq. This financial Oligarch controls the US Media and they slant the new to support there idea of invading the planet Mars. They will use same arguments that George Bush used to invade Iraq. There developing weapons of mass destruction and they may invade the Earth or destroy it. They also have a tyrant that rules over them and they don't like the free market system of enterprise and won't pay there debts. Especially the one where we financed the development of Mars so it could be colonized. So I went over history that most people here don't know to validate what I was saying. Yes, it did get off the topic a little bit, but it was to show why there would be two competing faction in a colonization or Mars if we retain a Federal Reserve Bank type system.

There can be no other possible choice, because those financial Oligarchs won't release there control over mankind reason than by being forced to do so, but will choose to destroy mankind with the hope that they can retain control over mankind after the collapse of mankind into a new dark age. That how they think and that how they make decision. So unless your prepared to deal with that mind set of there, the most likely choice is we aren't going to be building a colony on Mars or we are sure to have a planetary war if we build a colony on Mars.

Larry,

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-06 16:10:36

The Federal Reserve can't do anything to affect specific people, it can affect economic conditions, but to target specific individuals or political opponents, controlling the interest rates and money supply is too general a power. You can't target Joe Smo with an interest rate, you can make society in general miserable, but you can't target a specific person. The Federal Reserve just doesn't have that kind of power.

The Federal Reserve also can't wage a War, it has no troops, all it can do is regulate the money supply, that is too braod a power to affect the military situation.

Generally, elected politicians should not be in direct control of the money supply, as the results can be quire inflationary.

This conspiracy stuff is nonsense. The Federal Reserve was created by congress.

Gregori · 2008-03-12 07:09:03

Eventually it will probably get to a point where there is a Martian war of independence. The orbital shipyards would be used for building fighters. What methods could prevent it?

I don't think so. Wars between devleloped industrialised nations appear to be a thing of the past for the most part. The Means of destruction are too great. Thats a good thing too. Nuclear weapons (Possibley Anti-Matter Weapons) would make any Martian-Earth war very very brief. Mars would be much worse of in a War.

I would hope that a peaceful arrangement can be achieved in the future instead of repeating the bloody past.

JoshNH4H · 2008-03-12 13:18:43

on a mars that is anything less than habitable, war is completely rediculous. Like in red mars, crushing opposition on an unterraformed mars is as simple as popping a balloon.

Gregori · 2008-03-12 18:02:57

on a mars that is anything less than habitable, war is completely rediculous. Like in red mars, crushing opposition on an unterraformed mars is as simple as popping a balloon.

Even on a terraformed Mars it would be slightly ridiculous. Mars has much less Surface Area than Earth.

I think something different from the past will happen on a colonised Mars because of technology

Terraformer · 2008-03-15 13:42:24

The main value of Mars lies in its proximity to the asteroid belt.

JoshNH4H · 2008-03-16 07:28:21

I disagree. If you want materials, build a graphite/kelvar space elevator and send it up. If you want a home, paraterraform. If you want a factory, build one. Etc.

Gregori · 2008-03-18 09:13:17

The main value of Mars lies in its proximity to the asteroid belt.

I doubt that. It would be easier just to go to the asteroid belt and avoid martian gravity well

Terraformer · 2008-03-21 07:26:47

I meant as a home for the miners and their families. You might say 'spin the colonies' and I'll say 'Radiation protection.' You might say 'Asteroid radiation shielding'. I'll say 'Easier to get water. an atmosphere, easier to grow crops, etc'. And you'll say ' '.

JoshNH4H · 2008-03-21 09:29:04

terraformer, that is the main, and more or less only, value of CERES. Things can be done on mars to make it the second home for the human race. (Terraforming/paraterraforming)

Terraformer · 2008-03-21 10:30:39

Ceres has less land mass to serve as a support base for mining operations. Although that could be balanced by the fact that it's inside the asteroid belt. But it gets 1/9 of Earths sunlight to grow crops.

Gregori · 2008-04-04 15:57:49

I think Ceres is of more use a source of raw materials for a martian colony rather than as a target for growing crops. I hear that it probably contains a lot of water and organic material. Robots might be able of take care of this, either automated or remote controlled.

Perhaps it could be even hollowed out and turned into orbital ring habitat ( thats if ceres could be manouvered close to the sun, which is difficult)

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