Antimater core deposition - - re-heating the martian guts

nickname · 2008-02-21 06:13:50

Hi RickSmith,

I agree the idea won't work on a body without an atmosphere.
We can't cheat on Ceres to dump rotational energy to the atmosphere.

It might work on Mars because we can dump rotational energy to the atmosphere.
If we fire west with just enough force to soak most of the launch energy into the atmosphere the impactor returns with no east energy.
Now all we would need is a reason to do such a thing on Mars.

To true about moving Ceres being a bit off topic.
Started as a way to re start the core of Mars but the mechanics of moving it expanded it.

Gregori · 2008-03-11 17:29:04

I don't see the point

RickSmith · 2008-03-11 21:54:23

Hi Gregori, everyone.
Do you mean that you don't see the point of heating the Martian core? The point is that vulcanism is involved in several geochemical cycles that are needed for biosystems over millions or billions of years. Also, a couple billion years from now Mars will be much closer to a comfortable temperature since the sun will burn hotter. However, it will have eroded flat and lack the concentrations of elements needed to support complex life.

There is not much point in the short term. In the very long term it would be nice if Mars had more volcanoes.

Warm regards, Rick.

Midoshi · 2008-03-12 00:40:06

I have doubts that we need to heat, stir up, or otherwise "reactivate" the Martian core. The evidence is mounting that Mars is still quite volcanically active. Many lava flows are so young that they cannot be accurately dated with conventional "crater counting" methods, i.e. <1 million years old.

(Mitchell & Wilson 2005) have an interesting and reasonably supported theory that Mars is currently operating on a cycle with periods of ~1 million years of volcanic activity separated by ~100 million years of dormancy. During periods of activity they estimate that any given volcano would erupt every couple hundred years, meaning that in our 30 years of closely observing the Red Planet we've had at best a 1 in 9 chance of observing a serious eruption. These eruptions would be pretty big, lasting roughly a Martian year.

That said, the last well dated set of volcanic activity was ~100 million years ago and, as I said before, there seems to have been activity within the last 1 million years. That would put us in the middle of one of Mars' active periods. And there is very new evidence that this is true. (Roberts et al. 2007) have made a plausible case for dark particle dustings around Cerberus Fossae (a set of giant cracks in the Martian surface) being deposits expelled by volcanic activity within the past few years. A very exciting thought!

References:
Recent and Future Volcanism on Dormant Mars (Mitchell & Wilson 2005)
Possible evidence for on-going volcanism on Mars as suggested by thin, elliptical sheets of low-albedo particulate material around pits and fissures close to Cerberus Fossae (Roberts et al. 2007)

Gregori · 2008-03-12 06:47:37

Hi Gregori, everyone.
Do you mean that you don't see the point of heating the Martian core? The point is that vulcanism is involved in several geochemical cycles that are needed for biosystems over millions or billions of years. Also, a couple billion years from now Mars will be much closer to a comfortable temperature since the sun will burn hotter. However, it will have eroded flat and lack the concentrations of elements needed to support complex life.
There is not much point in the short term. In the very long term it would be nice if Mars had more volcanoes.
Warm regards, Rick.

Hi,

I understand the goal of it, to make Mars have a core like Earth. I just don't think the energy input for this would make sense in the long run. THe Martian Core is thought to be quite warm already, it just never formed tectonics.

My thoughts on terraforming is that you have to work with the planet you have, adapt to its condtions technologically. I don't think you can just force it to become Earth.

Over millions of years we could mine the material needed to maintain a life forms on planet. Maybe its even a good thing that Mars is not so geologiaclly active copared to Earth. There less risk of a catastrophic Natural disaster.

If its really important to have active geological activity, perhaps very deep fissures could be cut into the Martian surface to make plate tectonics.

Tom Kalbfus · 2008-03-15 09:34:52

An N-Stage thermo-nuclear bomb, might do the trick, as I mentioned in the Human missions section. I think fusion fuel is alot easier to obtain than antimatter anyway, and cheaper too. We know how to make bombs with it and the bombs can be scaled up as long as you have more fusion fuel to fuse. Since Edward Teller has made some progress with fusion bomb pumped x-ray lasers, perhaps this can be used to connect widely seperated fusion bomb stages distributed under the surface of Mars. The purpose being to generate lots of magma under the crust. The Earth's core is heated by radioactive decay, perhaps fusion could do the trick with Mars.

Midoshi · 2008-03-15 18:33:01

Many people here seem to be under the impression that Mars' core/mantle is too cold to support convection. Actually, according to observations and models the opposite is true; the Martian core is too hot to support convection.

On Earth the core is made of mostly iron and nickel. Due to the right combination of temperature and pressure, there exists a solid inner core and a liquid outer core. The solid core is constantly growing due to crystallization of liquid. This releases a huge amount of heat, which escapes by convecting through the liquid outer core and into the mantle. The convection gives us a magnetic field and the heat flux helps allow the mantle to be fluid enough to support plat tectonics on the surface.

On Mars the core is made of mostly iron and nickel like the Earth, but it also contains a lot of sulfur. This is important because sulfur interferes with the crystallization of iron and nickel, giving Mars a completely liquid core. With no crystallization, Mars lacks a central heat source to drive core convection, and thus couldn't sustain its magnetic field very long after formation. It also probably wasn't able to produce long term tectonic plate activity due to this lack of a crystallization energy source.

So why do I say the Martian core is too hot? Well, sulfur doesn't completely inhibit the crystallization of iron and nickel; it just lowers the solidification temperature somewhat. That means that once the temperature of Mars' core drops sufficiently for crystallization to begin, it could form a solid inner core that releases massive amounts of energy. This could conceivably begin driving a magnetic dynamo and plate tectonics like on Earth.

karov · 2008-03-18 09:02:38

Interesting facts, Midoshi.
Than you say that we have heat to get rid off.
Available thermal gradient to be "passed" through power generators.
Some deep reaching "geo" thermal power production?
Some realistic techs for quick draining out the heat?

nickname · 2008-03-22 08:53:48

Midoshi,

That is really interesting.
The thought of just drilling down beneath the poles to melt them comes to mind if Mars is that warm below it's surface.

All we would need do is select the lowest points at either pole then drill deep holes to melt above.

Not sure we could melt all the pole with that process, guess it all depends on how warm Mars is underground.

Midoshi · 2008-04-01 21:39:52

It is unfortunate that the sulfur content of Mars' core is at best constrained to be within about 10-16 wt% S. If we're lucky it's on the low end and Mars' core is already on the verge of crystallizing. If this is the case a core temperature drop of a few K or tens of K would be sufficient to reactivate convection. Unfortunately, some studies suggest ~14 wt% S, which puts Mars' core at the Fe-S eutectic composition and means that a cooling of something like 700 K would be required.

To put things in perspective, cooling the Martian core by 1 K requires the dissipation of ~1e26 joules. This is equivalent to the solar energy that Mars intercepts over 150 years. You could thermally liberate 6 bars of CO2 from carbonates with this energy, or 1.4 bar of N2 and 3.4 bar O2 from nitrates. This is far more than what would be needed to terraform Mars. In fact, Mars probably only has a couple tenths that much carbonate and nitrate in deposits.

As far as engineering, I would advocate either building heat pipes or injecting water through the insulating lithosphere and near the top of the mantle. This interface is only a few km deep in some parts of Mars (Hellas, Isidis, Utopian basins) and would make temperatures of ~650°C available, which is perfect for steam generation and dissociating both carbonates and nitrates. Such technology (for injected steam at least) is currently being fielded in Iceland.

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#26 2008-02-21 06:13:50

Re: Antimater core deposition - - re-heating the martian guts

#27 2008-03-11 17:29:04

Re: Antimater core deposition - - re-heating the martian guts

#28 2008-03-11 21:54:23

Re: Antimater core deposition - - re-heating the martian guts

#29 2008-03-12 00:40:06

Re: Antimater core deposition - - re-heating the martian guts

#30 2008-03-12 06:47:37

Re: Antimater core deposition - - re-heating the martian guts

#31 2008-03-15 09:34:52

Re: Antimater core deposition - - re-heating the martian guts

#32 2008-03-15 18:33:01

Re: Antimater core deposition - - re-heating the martian guts

#33 2008-03-18 09:02:38

Re: Antimater core deposition - - re-heating the martian guts

#34 2008-03-22 08:53:48

Re: Antimater core deposition - - re-heating the martian guts

#35 2008-04-01 21:39:52

Re: Antimater core deposition - - re-heating the martian guts

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