Russian on mars

Javof · 2007-12-28 01:12:13

Russian already on mars. You believe?

Mars_B4_Moon · 2007-12-28 06:26:51

Yes it was a robot called Marsnik-3, in the early 70s it landed on Mars transmitted for a second or two and then failed

As per usual the Russians tried to cover the whole thing up

I think the Buran might have been able to launch a manned mission but that rocket program is dead

cIclops · 2007-12-28 08:19:51

I think the Buran might have been able to launch a manned mission but that rocket program is dead

Heh. Just today news from Russia

MOSCOW, December 28 (Itar-Tass) -- Russia will not build space shuttles, as they are costly and unreliable, head of the Russian space agency Roskosmos Anatoly Perminov said on Thursday.
He told a press conference Russia will not revive its Buran space shuttle project.
“Buran will not be revived, as it is the same US shuttle, which in the United States showed it has no prospects, is costly and poorly reliable,” Perminov said, adding however that Buran experience will be used in the design of a new manned space vehicle.

Javof · 2007-12-28 12:36:43

Buran can be not single. There is secret projects, with outside sponsor certainly.

SpaceNut · 2007-12-28 21:41:17

This story would indicates otherwise as to something possibly in the works...
Russia, India may jointly develop new space shuttle

Although Perminov did not identify the project, but 'Energia' Corporation is reportedly developing reusable spacecraft 'Clipper', which is expected to replace Soviet-designed Soyuz spaceships in Russia's national space programme.
Perminov said India was Russia's privileged space partner with which it was working in different directions and has granted Indian space experts access to many of its ground control facilities.

RobertDyck · 2008-01-03 01:10:19

Hi Janof. I'm the one who contacted RSC Energia back in December 2000. The Energia launch vehicle can be re-activated, and it would cost a lot less than Americans want to believe. The employee of Energia Ltd. who I spoke to at the time said they were contacted by NASA "a few years ago" about using Energia, they did a study and determined it would cost between $60 million and $100 million US dollars to restore infrastructure. I found a NASA website that listed the per-launch cost for Energia in 1994 at $120 million including the Energia Upper Stage. That tells me when "a few years ago" was.

In February 2001 I received a response from the Director of the International Division of RSC Energia. He confirmed that Energia is available to anyone willing to pay for restoration of infrastructure and the per-launch cost, however he didn't confirm how much that is.

On May 12, 2002, there was an accident at Baikonur; the roof of the vehicle assembly building for Energia/Buran collapsed. The 3 remaining Energia launch vehicles and the Buran orbiter were inside at the time. They were destroyed. Additional main engines were also in that building, I don't know if the extra engines were destroyed but they were in the part of the building that collapsed. Since ownership and responsibility to maintain Energia/Buran facilities was transferred from Russia to Kazakhstan on January 1, 2000; Russia was not impressed! Kazakhstan demanded Russia pay for the repairs, but since it was a botched roof maintenance job by Kazakhstan that caused the collapse, Russia demands Kazakhstan pay for it. The stand-off resulted in no repair. This is the 5th winter that building has had without a roof; rain and melting snow will cause damage to the interior. It will cost money to repair.

I also sent a letter to KbKHA, manufacturer of the main engines for Energia. I received a response on October 31, 2003. They confirmed they have "nine engines RD0120 with various residual life-time are available at KBKhA, and we may prepare them for hot-fire tests on our’s own. These engines are at different degree of readiness for hot-fire tests and slightly vary in design." That tells me they were development test engines. They retained most of the tooling, but will require a new CNC milling machine. Most importantly, they are willing to swallow the cost of retooling on the condition they receive a solid order for new engines.

The Burya program was development of the Russian space shuttle. The first orbiter built was Buran. The second orbiter was not given a formal name, but informally called Ptichka. The third, fourth, and fifth orbiters didn't have names because they weren't completed. The 3rd was 40% complete, given to a German museum. The 4th was 20% complete, dismantled and parts sold on the internet. The 5th was never assembled, only loose parts built and no one can find those parts now. The parts were left in the factory where other aircraft were built, so they were probably recycled into other projects.

Buran flew once 1987, unmanned on autopilot only. In 1993 Ptichka was 97% complete, it's rumoured that Ptichka is now complete. Although the first two orbiters were going to fly on autopilot only, never fly with crew, the rumour is that Ptichka has had life support and all equipment for crew installed. The last 3 orbiters had doors installed in the roof of the flight deck for ejection seats, and a special ejection seat developed based on a MiG seat; this new seat could eject from sitting on the launch pad to a speed of mach 3. Since Ptichka was one of the first two it didn't get the roof doors, so doesn't have ejection seats. Ptichka is now stored in the orbiter processing building at Baikonur, building #240.

Although Energia was designed to be the booster for Buran, since the main engines are on the external tank it can fly without the orbiter. It did fly that way once, to lift a big military satellite. Although the satellite failed, the launch vehicle worked perfectly.

RobertDyck · 2008-01-03 01:16:39

I think the Buran might have been able to launch a manned mission but that rocket program is dead
Heh. Just today news from Russia
MOSCOW, December 28 (Itar-Tass) -- Russia will not build space shuttles, as they are costly and unreliable, head of the Russian space agency Roskosmos Anatoly Perminov said on Thursday.
He told a press conference Russia will not revive its Buran space shuttle project.
“Buran will not be revived, as it is the same US shuttle, which in the United States showed it has no prospects, is costly and poorly reliable,” Perminov said, adding however that Buran experience will be used in the design of a new manned space vehicle.

Damn! And I thought restoring Ptichka to flight would be an incentive to get Russia to maintain Energia. I even talked to some Canadian Space Agency people about Canada paying for restoration of Russian infrastructure. And if they got Ptichka flying, have Canada donate one CanadArm identical to the ones on the American shuttle. That would give us Energia, a launch vehicle capable of sending a human mission to Mars.

Javof · 2008-01-05 12:43:04

Hi RobertDyck. Only I not janof, but javof. I so and thought. Nothing beside us is not got. Even on the moon to get can not. Excuse me for my English.

Javof · 2008-01-05 12:52:43

OffTopic: Give the reference to forum on programming. Much it is necessary. Beforehand thank you.

RobertDyck · 2008-01-05 16:25:57

We have discussed Energia here at New Mars on a couple discussion threads. I don't remember the topic title. I have created a website for the local chapter of the Mars Society, and put up a web page with much of my information about Russian rockets. There are copies of my correspondence and links at the bottom to most of my sources.

http://chapters.marssociety.org/winnipeg/russian.html

Terraformer · 2008-01-06 03:31:22

You do know anyone wanting Ptichka to fly would have to speak to Khazakstan about it, as Khazakstan got it in a Spacecraft-for-Credit deal from Russia (seriously). According to some images of it it it's strapped to an Energia booster at the moment.

JonClarke · 2008-01-06 04:56:08

Yes it was a robot called Marsnik-3, in the early 70s it landed on Mars transmitted for a second or two and then failed
As per usual the Russians tried to cover the whole thing up

It was called Mars 3, not Marsnik, and there was no cover up. Probably the most detailed history of the Soviet unmanned Mars program is Perminov's http://klabs.org/richcontent/Reports/ma … o_mars.pdf

Jon

oxforduniversity · 2008-01-11 03:24:26

I saw a comment here that the Russia's Buran Space is dead. Well I have some news for you to say from sources that the Russian Buran is not dead.

oxforduniversity · 2008-01-11 03:25:24

I saw a comment here that the Russia's Buran Space is dead. Well I have some news for you to say from sources that the Russian Buran is not dead. The program still remains open as the Russian government has not closed the Russian Space Shuttle program. Yes it is true the original orbiter Buran was destroyed in Kerelov in May 2002 from a wind storm from hanger site 112 but only half of the hanger was destroyed. Remember Russia has built more than 13 space shuttles and they are stored indoors (besides the outside rusty ones) and also Russia still has the original Energia rocket boosters (all the parts and etc besides the original launch pad in Korolev) as well. This is still the most powerful rocket system in the world and Russia will not turn off the project. Russia has been focusing on some many other issues such as Mars but that doesn't mean Buran is dead.

President Putin wanted to start the Buran program again but after the May 2002 accident, money was decided not to rebuild just yet. Putin's goal was to restore Russia back into its Superpower status which that has already happened in May 2006 as they announced it at the G8 meeting in St.Petersburg Russia while the Bush was attended and never conducted they weren’t. So money has been concentrated in paying off all its national debts and they have succeeded just that paying everything off and being debt free by 2006 but Buran is not off the books, it still remains in possible readmission but time will till when.

The Russia Buran shuttle is so unique that NASA's shuttle can't compete with it as they are so different from each other but also Russia was the first to designed the shuttle back in the late 60's but with the US spying, somehow the US came up with their shuttle but the US says differently that the Russia’s stole the ideas and made their own. I am not going to argue who invented the shuttle first but my opinion from Russian blueprints, the Russians were on the design first and the Americans ran with the idea. The US spent millions on the shuttle program but so did the Russian's but being late with it, they built a better shuttle program and than NASA did. If you view the difference what both shuttles can do, the Buran succeeds it.

I am not Russia as I am an American but I speak Russian where I do travel to Russia which I have inside connections what is going on in Russia. The entire country is changing to a completely rich country allover, there is so much money that all the Soviet programs have all been turned on, I mean all the military agencies are back in full force again. A lot of military building from subs to aircraft carriers and more. Russia is planning to build the biggest Navy fleet by 2018 as they are building 20 high tech aircraft carriers over the US less than 10 years. For example, the US from 1981 to 2007 only built 7 aircraft carriers and so many military ships but this is just an example what Russia is doing. I mean there is a lot of spending and Russia is said to over come the US military budget by 2015, that is 500 billion pure year, imagine that. They money they have and it seems to double and quadruple and more.

Yes Buran is sitting around on Soviet space docks but Russia has so many Space agencies holding them the world’s largest space agency compared to the US because this is Russia's pride, space. I would highly recommend anyone wanting to see a real space mission from a launch pad up close to go visit Star City in Korolev; the space launch is much more enjoyable than Kennedy Space center. I like Kennedy space center but this is the only place to watch a space launch as Lompoc California was killed in 1986 by Ronald Reagan after the Challenging accident but going to Russia, you have 5 space locations to visit to see man space missions from and you get to meet the cosmonauts before launch. It is quite a place to visit and see more than Kennedy space station in my opinion.

As for the Buran program the Russian population still favors saving the Buran as much as Putin wants to keep it open because of the money they spent on it so why close it and that is something they will not do.

If you understand Russian this link below from a government official says the Buran is still open and they will not close it. Since I speak Russia so I am translating that for you to understand that Buran is not dead but open for your information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZlNG4v2jHA

There is information available to read further on Buran in the possibly but is in Russia only. Russia is seriously focusing on Mars but Buran is still in position to be used in the next 10 years depending on their needs to put Mars materials in Space which the Buran has the payload to carry the tools they need besides the International Space Station.

The other links below are just some links about Russia back on the Superpower track again if case you wish to read some facts about Russia.

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bburan28.jpg
________________________________________
Washington Acknowledges Russia as Superpower 2007
http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp

Also Russia is an energy super giant of the world as well.
Russia Super energy power
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php

http://edition.cnn.com/.../index.html
http://www.russiaprofile.org/page.php
http://www.strategypage.com/on_point/20041130.asp

http://www.warpeace.org/article.php
http://72.14.253.104/search http://www.russophile.com/.../...ard_returned.html

Washington Acknowledges Russia as Superpower
http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp
http://bhtimes.blogspot.com/2007_05_28_archive.html

http://www.spacewar.com/Superpowers.html
http://www.spacewar.com/.../...rgy_ties_999.html

Russia Dangerous Superpower
http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp

A Former Superpower Rises Again
http://www.spiegel.de/.../...18,426393,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/.../...ck-426393,00.html

Russia: A superpower rises again
POSTED: 1203 GMT (2003 HKT), December 13, 2006
Says Russia was always a Superpower
http://edition.cnn.com/.../index.html

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp

Russia on the march - again
By Con Coughlin
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 13/04/2007
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml

Russia - Economic Superpower
http://lightworker.com/store/product_info.php

In the playground of the superpowers
By Harun Karcic
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/II21Ag01.html

cIclops · 2008-01-11 04:10:17

Hey there oxforduniversity, impressively long second post!

Your first reference, the youtube video, is one year old. On 28 Dec 2007, RKA head, Perminov said: “Buran will not be revived, as it is the same US shuttle, which in the United States showed it has no prospects, is costly and poorly reliable” Reviving Buran makes no sense technically or economically. Shuttle demonstrated that this design solution is flawed.

Thanks for all the other references.

Russian engineers seem to be focused on Mars with both the Phobos Grunt sample return mission and the ongoing Mars 500 simulation.

Any insights or information you have into these or other developments would be much appreciated.

X · 2008-01-14 10:28:30

Can someone explain to me how the Russian shttle would be useful for a manned Mars mission? It's bigger than the US version, and it'd be newer. But without a landing strip and launch facilities on Mars I don't how you could hope t land it or get your crew back to earth.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2008-01-16 10:40:23

Can someone explain to me how the Russian shttle would be useful for a manned Mars mission?

The Buran transport system wasn't just for launching Shuttles, it was more about the new heavy lift the Russians built. The Energia booster rocket which could have launched other payloads like Polus etc

http://www.army.lv/photos/3984.jpg

Russia had little experience with Mars missions but they do have great experience with long duration flights and they still hold the largest records for stay in space. If they did a few launches in quick succession, they could look at launching 3 or more in a row and think at in-orbit assembly of a Russian habitation module and capsule and Mars lander.

X · 2008-01-16 12:34:51

Thanks. Now I see.

RobertDyck · 2008-01-16 22:18:27

Robert Zubrin's book "The Case for Mars" says his mission plan, Mars Direct would enable a human mission to Mars with 2 launches of an Ares rocket. That isn't the Ares 5 we know today, it was a rocket with the same lift capacity as a Saturn V built out of Space Shuttle parts with a side-mounted engine pod. That permitted it to launch from the same pad as the Shuttle, no modification. That same book states Mars Direct would work with 3 launches of Energia. Although Energia is slightly smaller, it's an existing design, no development cost. It's the only heavly lift launch vehicle that can be re-activated.

RobertDyck · 2008-01-16 22:39:24

Russia has built more than 13 space shuttles and they are stored indoors (besides the outside rusty ones) and also Russia still has the original Energia rocket boosters (all the parts and etc besides the original launch pad in Korolev) as well.

Although I have been arguing on Mars Society messages boards (this one and the previous) since year 2001 that Energia could be re-activated, I must make some corrections.

Russia built 5 space flight orbiters, of which only 1 remains today. The others were mock-ups or aerodynamic test models. For example, one has 4 jet engines installed so it can fly in the air on its own. None of these mock-ups or test models can fly in space.

My reserach into Energia parts found they were all stored in the high bays of building #112 at Baikonur.

Here are a few pictures to illistrate the problem. Click on any picture to enlarge.

Energia core modules (April 1997)

Top cones for energia strap-on boosters (April 1997)

Buran mounted on a complete Energia launch stack, all on a transporter (April 25, 2002)

Buran after the accident (May 12, 2002)

Energia core modules after the accident (May 12, 2002)

Building #112 after the accident (May 12, 2002)

The following picture of building #112 before the accident puts it in perspective. The 3 high bays are on the right here. The two lower parts of the building are still pretty high, but not the higest. The lower parts remain intact.

Terraformer · 2008-01-17 04:55:57

Still, Ptichka has been completed and is still around. If someone had it and wanted to, it could be ready to be launched quickly.

oxforduniversity · 2008-01-17 17:28:56

Your first reference, the youtube video, is one year old. On 28 Dec 2007, RKA head, Perminov said: “Buran will not be revived, as it is the same US shuttle, which in the United States showed it has no prospects, is costly and poorly reliable” Reviving Buran makes no sense technically or economically. Shuttle demonstrated that this design solution is flawed.

The bottom line is the Russian government has not closed the Buran shuttle program. Even if the Buran shuttle nevers flies again, the Russian government will not close it.

Concerning the Buran verses Russia's other rockets, the Buran still has
a process on the Russia's Mar mission. Russian engineers has admitted it is still useful and many still favor using it again. Even if it is not flown at all, they will tell you that Buran is something they do need for Mars.

Russia has lots of money and what they are spending is going to beat the US military budget by 2015 to 2018 and they will lead on military spending in the next 8 years as they are back on the Superpower track again. Sure the Russia shuttle is expensive but the Russia has options and the US doesn't. The US only has 3 shuttles and one set for decommission next year where no other future rocket project in the US has ever been started yet as even the X-33 and X-43 projects were closed by Congress because it was too expensive.

Really when 2015 comes and pressure is upon Russia, Buran could be reconditioned later if needed. The talk has been up and down with Buran all the time and time again. If the site 112 wasn't destroyed, Buran would be set for launced as the Russian government would of spent the extra money reconditioning the Buran Energia launch pad. Remember 112a still stands and as site 112 and 112a is one building. Buran has parts everywhere.

It is ashame what happened to site 112, no question but there isn't all lost hope on Buran yet. On the Mars table for disscussing, Buran sits there on the back corner when engineers are reading blue prints after blue prints, where are other engineers still discussing it tapping people on their shoulders.

I do communicate with someone Korolev who's father was part of the Buran project, I have an idea what is being said over there. I am not 100% sure Buran is dead as I am a believer she waits and I know it isn't closed either.

The Energia rocket boosters for the Buran are for sure still discussed, even if Buran isn't on them, they still need the payload of those boosters.
I mean the price for one launch is almost 2 US launches. One launch if you can guess what it cost NASA or US taxpayers ($450 million on the average but NASA doesn't really want to tell you what it cost currently). I mean the issue with NASA is it is a ticking time collapse. NASA has discussed options of buying Russian rockets, that's how much has is falling on the economic front and Congress can't allow them anymore money has they are only allowed 1% of the US budget and NASA can't live on that income. One more issue with the Shuttle, Congress would put the program on hault. Russia making one man mission a month says a lot who's doing what and who isn't. The US economy is killing NASA besides the fuel cost. If you watched Larry King last night, you heard the word recession. Money Magazine said we're in a recession, same with Morgan Morgan Standley and USA Today. I have a friend who is a NASA engineer has admitted many times that Russia has always been a head of the game. When Russia started it's program back in the early 1950's the US knew everything and they were waiting for the Russian's to make their own mistakes till they succeeded then the US came in. The US has always been spaying on Russia's space program, even the 1970's when Russia had been working on a space plane rocket, which is the shuttle. I mean who did what, if NASA engineers are keeping quiet how the USA came up with the idea of the space shuttle, take a look at the Russian achieves in Moscow and Korolev back in 1965 from the original russian blue prints. What was the US doing at this time, the Apollo but Russia had separate projects besides the N1 program.

Qoute:

"If Evel Kneivel would have hired an Russian rocket engineer, the Snake River Canyon would have been successful"

cIclops · 2008-01-17 18:58:26

The bottom line is the Russian government has not closed the Buran shuttle program. Even if the Buran shuttle nevers flies again, the Russian government will not close it.

It will look great in Disneyland Moscow.

Ron Carlson · 2008-03-18 15:47:58

The bottom line is the Russian government has not closed the Buran shuttle program. Even if the Buran shuttle nevers flies again, the Russian government will not close it.
It will look great in Disneyland Moscow.

RC

Dayton Kitchens · 2008-03-19 06:46:02

The Russian program is effectively if not officially dead. Get over it.

The Russians will never land anyone on Mars unless they are along for the ride aboard a U.S. lander.

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