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There was just an interview on Fox News with the author of a book about the Chinese landing in America before the Europeans (in 1421). The book is apparenly big in Europe and is just about to be released here. He claims much evidence of Europeans running into Chinese explorers and assorted artifacts.
Those of you familiar with the ancient Chinese fleet that explored the world may have heard from various Mars bigwigs that some Chinese emperor destroyed the fleet on a whim, but in the interview he said that the fleet was taking up a huge amount of resources, like wood, and after the Chinese starting moving into Vietnam for more wood they started loosing a war there and such. Exploration got very unpopular and undoable so that's why they mothballed/destroyed the fleet. Can anyone add something to this history of the ancient Chinese fleet?
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I saw the article. Looks like a bunch of bs to me.
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Ohhhhh.
I guess it was just a 'bunch of bs' then. I should reconsider the whole idea within a more conservative eurocentric context, and eagerly seek our Lord Bill O'reilly's solid opinion on the matter.
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No, the guys anecdotes look shiny on the surface, but theyre weak and baseless. he takes a bunch of nice sounding stuff, slaps it together, and calls it history.
the guy is an amateur historian trying to create a controversial re-write of history. considering the chinese didnt reach europe, the logical path of their desire, i doubt they could have crossed the pacific. why dont we see chinese colonies anywhere in the pacific?
im sorry, i should just believe anything that goes against the idea of european accomplishment, because the West are the evil oppressors of the world.
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Preston, lay off Bill O'Reilly.
Do you guys think the "Apollo" analogy of exploration is usable here? (ie saying the Vikings weren't here first by saying they didn't stay is like saying we didn't go to the moon because we didn't stay there) I don't think so, because there are SOOOO many places in the Pacific that would have been attractive to settle in (ie Southern California BEFORE 1972).
"Some have met another fate. Let's put it this way... they no longer pose a threat to the US or its allies and friends." -- President Bush, State of the Union Address
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Um, the Indians got here before anyone. So I don't see the issue, really. It's actually pretty ridiculous that we even discuss who ?discovered? America first, since we'll never really know (mainly due to the fact that there was only one land mass only a few thousand years ago).
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
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The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
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The Chinese did land in America. But they were dead at the time. The circular current that dominates the Pacific was responsible for the loss of a number of Chinese junk's during the Yongle Emperor's rule, if I recall, and that particular current would have eventually deposited some of the partly-decomposed bodies on the western coast of North America. Perhaps some of them survived, but nobody actually knows for certain.
This particular current was oftentimes aided by what the Japanese called kamikaze, the 'divine wind', which was what prevented the Chinese from conquering Japan on a number of occasions - by the simple expedient of blowing them off course and into the current I mentioned earlier.
Ex Astra, Scienta
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Oh, and the merchant fleet was scrapped because of political infighting between the eunichs and the confuscian's (I think I spelt that correctly), not because of a lack of resources. China was the richest nation on Earth at the time - by far. They could easily afford the fleet, but the political atmosphere of the day dictated otherwise.
Ex Astra, Scienta
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Even if the Chinese did make it to the Americas they didn't see fit to keep coming back and I'm sure they would have had they not the aristocracy applied the leash to its explorers and fleets. I agree with Soph, I need to see more evidence before I'll believe it. There's always people out there claiming that groups like the Phoenicians were the first to arrive in America and their evidence tends to be tentative and widely open to interpretation. Anyhow, it's a well documented historical fact that the Chinese chose to isolate themselves from the rest of the world. A few possible excursions here and there doesn't change that fact.
To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd
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As someone pointed out, that's like saying we didn't go to the moon because we like to isolate ourselves from space.
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
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The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
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Bull. Its completely different. We have documental proof of our moon landings, video, pictures, etc. The Chinese dont have any such record, or paintings, or mythology, or so on.
This is just a guy trying to make a name for himself.
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If the Chinese ever did arrive in America, most of the people on whatever ship or fleet that was were dead on arrival. They simply could not carry enough supplies for the number of people on the junks to get that distance. But I have no doubt that ships were carried there by the circular Pacific currents, as I said before.
I'd also like to point out that for a very long time indeed, the Chinese had the best-kept records in the world. Very big on bureacracy and documenting everything, were/are the Chinese.
Ex Astra, Scienta
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Basically, you guys are trying to dumb down the guys evidence by stating that the Chinese didn't colonize America. I think this is very nearsighted.
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
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The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
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no, i am saying there is no physical evidence besides a few anecdotes and postulations. We have video of the moon. We have samples of the moon. We have a flag on the moon. We have our moon landers. Leif Ericcson left traces of Viking society in North America. We've admitted that he got here before the rest of Europe.
I find it rather amusing that the Chinese, who take pride in their society and dont shy away from showing their achievements, never said this before, and it is coming from an amateur historian. If you were to say, the Egyptians were the first to come to North America, I would believe you, because of the Mexican temples, which closely resemble pyramids and ziggurats. But the Chinese? No, I dont think so.
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There was a show on discovery talking about how pyramids came up all over the world all on their own. People wanted to be closer to god (or the heavens), and the only workable structure with technology in their days, was a pyramid. This is a very simple, and very likely explaintion. The stars spur our imagination even now. And the only way to get closer to them without technology, the only way to build something high, is to build a pyramid.
A memory of something can easily be wiped out. Just look at marijuana.
Personally, I am with you guys, the guy wants to make money, so he writes something full of shit and publishes it, getting a lot of media attention, since the media is sort of reactionary, and anything they can make into something big can sell. I've read plenty of stuff discrediting most of his position.
But to discredit the central idea without basis is ridiculous. I mean, hello? Did the Ming Dynasty send out treasure fleets? Yes. Is it plausible that those fleets arrived in the US? Sure (where's the evidence that none of them did?).
Is any of this relevant at all? No. Why? Because archaeological evidence has shown that America has been known by humans for thousands of years. Their discoveries were mere rediscoveries.
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
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The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
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Hmm, I just saw an article in the newspaper. It looks like they are trying to say the Chinese landed in New Zealand first too.
It's got a picture of what one Maori chief used as a cooking pot: A big Chinese bell.
[url]http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Echus[/url]
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I remember reading in Larry Gonick's history of america, about a chinese anchor found off the coast of southern california. If it had been a rotted ship that collapsed there, I think they'd have found a lot more than just an anchor.
Unfortunatly, Gonick doesn't give a reference to his sources, so he must be full of huey.
...Come to think of it, this chinese landing that might have taken place 500 years ago, might look a lot like the moon landing in another 500 years. The people who said "we never went" may have gained the upper hand by then, and all the video in the world will not convince them otherwise.
One of these fringe-reality types put out a book in the 70's that claimed the chinese had written records, not only of how far across the pacific ocean was, but a good account of how far across the north american continent was. Again, I can't read chinese, so his sources meant nothing to me, so he must have been full of huey.
My point here, is that we might do well to remember that continental drift was once considered fringe science, as was the idea that rocks could fall out of the sky. If the chinese made it to cape horn (not that crazy a claim), who's to say that california is out of the question?
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As someone pointed out, that's like saying we didn't go to the moon because we like to isolate ourselves from space.
It's only been about thirty years since we've been to the Moon, a far cry from the hundreds of years that the Chinese could have taken the initiative and colonized the Americas for themselves. The Chinese did isolate themselves from the rest of the world for a long time and unfortunately paid the price.
To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd
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I've seen the book "1421" at my local Barnes & Noble bookstore. Even had the Chinese accomplished this, it wouldn't have mattered: they were no where even close to one day solving the problem of longitude; they would never have been as good at clock-making that free-thinking European society would foster (especially England!) wccmarsface@msn.com
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Don't forget the giant statues made by either the Inca or the Aztecs that have decidedly Oriental features. I can see a Chinese anchor remaining after the ship is long rotted and eaten by worms.
How far the Vikings got inland is anybody's guess. There is Viking style graves in New Foundland, and other sites in the Midwest. Come to think of it, I remember reading about a man fishing in a Pennsylvania stream finding a Phoenician coin.
There may have been settlement attempts by both the Chinese and the Vikings. They may have all met the same fate as the Roanoke Colony. Maybe they encountered a hostile reception from the Anasazi?
P
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Don't forget the giant statues made by either the Inca or the Aztecs that have decidedly Oriental features. I can see a Chinese anchor remaining after the ship is long rotted and eaten by worms.
The temples and ziggurats closely resemble Babylonian and Egyptian temples, pyramids, and ziggurats, half the world away.
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Architecturally, sure (how else do you build tall stuff when all you got is rocks? you're going to have similar designs regardless of connection), but turbo is specificually referring to the artistic element. He has a point, which I never really considered.
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
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The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
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and maybe long long ago some Eskimo, Yupik, Inuit, Siberian linked tribe simply walked across Siberia and into Alaska and made their way down into the heartland of America and their ancestors set up towns in 'Mesoamerica', from parts of Greenland, Canada, Norway, Siberia and Alaska you find similar folklore story, similar Native Northern Shaman culture and religion custom, the Aleut-Eskimo-Greenlandic language link.
New archaeological find proves that vikings were in North America by 1021 CE, roughly 500 years before Christopher Columbus
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10 … y-1021-ce/
1,500-year-old pre-Viking arrow is found in an 'awesome' state of preservation
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … ation.html
11 facts about fearsome Viking 'Ivar the Boneless'
https://www.history.co.uk/articles/11-f … e-boneless
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-26 04:40:01)
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