Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

kapito · 2003-01-07 13:57:58

While reading some of the posts in the civilization and culture area of the bulletin boards, it came to me that the children are left out of the picture quite often when discussing how to live, how to make do in a Martian climate. This is unfortunate. Just as in the deserts, despite the verdant communites within travelling distance, many youths decide to stay put when they choose a place to settle. With the sense of adventure, of accomplishment, of pride engendered in the future Martian youth, it only seems obvious that many will choose to stay.

So how to raise them properly? Yes, how to raise the children of Mars. This will not be an environment wherein a child can open any door that is unlocked, can scamper freely without consequence both to him/herself and to the community and Martian settlement program. Cuts, bruises, death, fire, loss of oxygen to the community can be the ready result of an errant youth. Shall the overworked pioneers of the Martian environment be left to provide these important lessons in their part time? Would you be comfortable with your neighbors' ability to provide the necessary training to protect your life? Will schools be able to accomplish this during a standard morning to early afternoon schedule, while ingraining the valuable school and community curriculum? I'm not sure the terran standard will be appropo.

I would recommend the model of the Kibbutz with regard to the raising of children. Agricultural, defense, linguistic and cultural mores must be passed on in a ready manner to young minds to protect them from a hostile environment, to ensure viability of the community. Children are placed in the care of the centralized educational and care system, "manned" by those chosen (or volunteered) to provide the basic curriculum. Children are taken into the fields during part of the day and shown how to contribute to the food supply. They are shown the aquatic systems and how to maintain them, the laundering facilities and how to use them, how to shoot a weapon, and so forth. Eventually, certain children grow to care more about aspects of the community, and choose to have a greater, more consistent role in them. Experts grow, and improvements are naturally made to those systems.

The children are encouraged to live at the centralized education facilities, and parents and other relatives are provided the time to stop by and either take them home for the evening, or stay at the facility with the children often, maintaining the stable environment children cherish. There is no depravity of attention or affection by the entire community, and truly, a child is raised by the village.

In the Martian scheme, children could be placed in daycare learning environments early on, and provided with the necessary education that will protect them against the many dangers just outside the community. As they grow, standard educational curriculum is interspersed with Martian living skills, including life suit use, emergency procedures and the importance of the agricultural and life support system. As the children grow, these important skills will become ingrained, second nature. One more step toward sustaining the community and the goal of settling Mars. Children will learn social skills and to value teamwork early in life. Conformity of upbringing would be more readily maximized, moving towards strict compliance with life-saving procedures, and the ability to have some measure of faith in your fellow Martian.

Any comments as to this methodology? I'd love to hear them.

Palomar · 2003-01-07 14:42:30

*I don't know anything about the "kibbutz" system, but discussions have been had here before (last summer) regarding children on Mars and the special challenges relative to them. Your post adds to this, certainly (and hopefully revives those discussions), and you might find it of benefit to dig through the old threads pertaining to those discussions -- which can certainly be read in conjunction with yours.

And welcome to the forum!

--Cindy

kapito · 2003-01-07 15:12:10

Thanks, Cindy for the great welcome!

I think it is important to maintain this discussion at the forefront, only because as issues as to childrearing are encountered, answers should arise in other incredibly important areas of daily life.

Making room for the essential training of children affects the workplace culture. Child training in the agriculture centers will affect the issues of farmhands. A tightly controlled youth will require individualized outlets, affecting space and time requirements for the whole community. And so forth.

Terran society fits the children around the rest of us. Why not, with the chance to do so, create an environment around our future generations? Why not make that the hub of Martian civilization?

Palomar · 2003-01-07 16:32:25

Thanks, Cindy for the great welcome!
I think it is important to maintain this discussion at the forefront, only because as issues as to childrearing are encountered, answers should arise in other incredibly important areas of daily life.
Making room for the essential training of children affects the workplace culture. Child training in the agriculture centers will affect the issues of farmhands. A tightly controlled youth will require individualized outlets, affecting space and time requirements for the whole community. And so forth.
Terran society fits the children around the rest of us. Why not, with the chance to do so, create an environment around our future generations? Why not make that the hub of Martian civilization?

*I re-read your posts. More comments to follow later (I'm pressed for time right now).

However, I do have one particular element in mind: How do we ingrain a sense of community and other-relatedness in children -and- foster healthy self-identity (individualism)? And can these two concepts/values cohabitate in such a place?

--Cindy

clark · 2003-01-07 16:48:44

Wow, removing children from their parents to be raised by the State and taught State sanctioned culture.

I guess I should be for this.

Parents have no right to raise their children- it makes mroe sense to allow Professionals who know what is best for the children to decide how they are raised and what they should learn.

soph · 2003-01-07 17:39:02

No. If you give birth to a child, you have every right to raise it.

But I think, as I have seen before, that the best system would be apprenticeship combined with conventional schooling. If a child shows a special interest or aptitude in a subject or field, have him train in that field as an apprentice. this system worked in europe for centuries. when combined with normal schooling (say, 4 or 5 hours a day of each, or 3, 8 hour school days a week and 2, 8 hour work days a week), would provide a child with a practical and rounded education.

the children could beging apprenticeship at 13-15, around the work age for children now, except that they would be learning their career and helping society at the same time, rather than manning the window at McDonald's. Children could start at better positions or receive more benefits for better schoolwork, so that could be an incentive to pay attention in class

Phobos · 2003-01-08 02:14:58

Parents have no right to raise their children- it makes mroe sense to allow Professionals who know what is best for the children to decide how they are raised and what they should learn.

Yeah well, a lot of "professionals" at the turn of the last century were pro-eugenics and measured skulls to determine personality traits. I found it strange that you capitalized "professional", perhaps this is some new elitist overlord class you've invented for your society? By mentioning that the people who give birth to a child have no right to raise it your basically saying that we exist soley to serve the state, that we have children soley for the benefit of the state since the parents are not allowed to raise or bond with them. A lot of sympathisers of Soviet Russia often
defend the slavery that went on in the gulags and the work camps as necessary for the greater good and industrialization of the USSR, that it was necessary to destroy these people for the good of the state. Do you agree? Is it perfectly acceptable to sacrifice the individual for the good of the state? Shall we lick the boots of our masters and allow them to stomp all over us? It's probably an irrelevant question, any Nazi-style colony that treats people as a means rather than an end won't last long anyway--such draconian policies are cruel and unnecessary. Down with the state.

clark · 2003-01-08 10:09:09

. I found it strange that you capitalized "professional", perhaps this is some new elitist overlord class you've invented for your society?

No. I think kapito explained their idea as:

Children are placed in the care of the centralized educational and care system, "manned" by those chosen (or volunteered) to provide the basic curriculum.

Does that sound elitist to you?

By mentioning that the people who give birth to a child have no right to raise it your basically saying that we exist soley to serve the state, that we have children soley for the benefit of the state since the parents are not allowed to raise or bond with them.

Maybe people would have second thoughts about having a child, or if they did, it wouldn't be a selfish act to serve some personal desire. Different perspectives, eh?

Do you agree? Is it perfectly acceptable to sacrifice the individual for the good of the state?

*Yes*

Unless of course you think that defending our State with life and limb is not acceptable. Sometimes it becomes neccessary to sacrifice the individual for the State.

Shall we lick the boots of our masters and allow them to stomp all over us?

LOL. Who is talking about that? I simply pointed out that kapito was suggesting that the State raise the children. Where do you get "masters"? Do you think american leaders are our masters? Just silly.

Let's try to stay on track.

Palomar · 2003-01-08 11:04:16

*You know, I can't help thinking about children raised in tribal situations. A few years ago I saw a television documentary about a tribe in the Amazon rainforest. Those people seem pretty well adjusted and happy; they seem better adjusted and happier than the Western nuclear family set-up. The parents are the primary caregivers, but the extended village watches out for the children too. Of course, these people have their own set of particular problems and peculiarities; I'm not trying to sound as if they live in some sort of jungle dream-land.

One drawback I can see to the tight-knit nuclear family is the intense concentration of very few personalities upon the child. Whichever parent is dominant will affect the child directly; if the dominant parent is an overbearing, bellering asshole, the child will generally react either by identifying with that parent (if of the same gender) or, if of the opposite gender to the destructively dominant parent, generally will become more timid and acquiescent to the opposite gender.

Kids are essentially blank templates when they come into the world. How many people do you personally know who are strongly imprinted by one parent, and subsequently pretty much turn out like that one parent? A more communal setting ::might:: offset this, and allow more aspects of a child's personality to be tweaked and flourished -- if the communal setting still has the parents present -and- the individual identity of the child is acknowledged and respected.

I think there can be a blend of approaches to raising a child.

Of course, nothing is guaranteed.

--Cindy

clark · 2003-01-08 11:25:49

*I agree*

Much better to allow multiple deviants and perverts a hand in raising everyone's child.

Palomar · 2003-01-08 11:37:22

*I agree*
Much better to allow multiple deviants and perverts a hand in raising everyone's child.

*As like in your own proposed scenario? Clark: "I guess I should be for this. Parents have no right to raise their children- it makes mroe sense to allow Professionals who know what is best for the children to decide how they are raised and what they should learn."

::meow::

--Cindy

clark · 2003-01-08 11:51:47

I merely agree that children are blank templates and that letting more people have a hand in their rearing would be beneficial as you suggest. It also carries with it an added risk that I was honestly pointing out.

My previous post was also a statement cutting through the soft sounding description provided by Kapito of a situation where the State is charged with rearing the children and the parents are relagted to a scond tier status.

I'm calling a spade a spade.

That said, I think it will be a neccessity to raise children as Kapito suggets when it comes to Mars. But it is what is.

::bark::

Palomar · 2003-01-08 12:02:15

I merely agree that children are blank templates and that letting more people have a hand in their rearing would be beneficial as you suggest. It also carries with it an added risk that I was honestly pointing out.
My previous post was also a statement cutting through the soft sounding description provided by Kapito of a situation where the State is charged with rearing the children and the parents are relagted to a scond tier status.
I'm calling a spade a spade.
That said, I think it will be a neccessity to raise children as Kapito suggets when it comes to Mars. But it is what is.
::bark::

*Alrighty then.

::purr::

--Cindy

clark · 2003-01-08 12:06:10

Let me throw the proverbial moneky wrench into this scenerio:

Will people be able to, or would it be practical, to allow parents the choice of opting out the kibbituz program?

If they are not allowed, or it is not practical, will you force parents?

Will people have to agree before they go to mars? So anyone who does not subscribe to this world view would be denied access to the base, or would they simply not be allowed to have children?

How is this system practical if people ARE allowed to opt out?

Some things to consider...

Bill White · 2003-01-08 12:07:09

Instead of arguing about our various personal perspectives on raising children - my wife and I do that enough already in the context of my daughter and son - I have a practical question:

What will the parents be doing all day at any future Mars settlement? I foresee settlers have far more time available each day to devote to their own children than is currently true for most US families. There will be rover trips of course and some travel - but for the most part I believe both parents will be "home" or within a few hundred feet of home 90% of the time. No one will leave for the "office" by catching the 6:50 am train and then coming home on the 7:10 pm train with the kiddies being bundled off to ChildWorld or handed over to a nanny.

Indeed - I believe boredom will be a major issue for most adults on Mars (ask Adrian about the prospect of spending 27 months at MDRS - which is in Utah). Child care and playing with children is a great antidote for boredom once you get over the need to feel "important" with important being defined in a purely adult sense. The poetry of John Keats or some Aristotle followed by "Thomas the Tank Engine" does produce some mental whiplash, however.

Next - how do we foresee meals being handled?

Meals in common among groups of families or each "nuclear" family eating by themselves? Probably more group meals than not - with a recognized need for special private time to allow BOTH for the bonding of children with the larger group AND the bonding of the children with their immediate family.

On Mars - IMHO - both parents will be far more active in day to day child care than is customary in the US, at least in the middle and upper middle classes. Since everyone will be highly educated, and screened before going off to Mars, I daresay ALL married couples will tend towards a more equal sharing of child rearing between mother and father and there will be very little "breadwinner" // "homemaker" bifurcation of duties.

IMHO - Americans (US-ians) will be very reluctant to acknowledge in any formal or structured sense that the village has final say on child rearing but as a practical matter, given the closed in nature of life on Mars (clark has used a submarine as a good analogy) it seems inevitable that the group will have more say than exists in US suburbia today - even if that say is unspoken. This simple reality will make it unnecessary and unwise for anyone to proclaim, announce or decree that the kibbutz/village has ultimate authority.

So - I will violate my own opening remark and conclude by saying I oppose either/or (community based child rearing vs nuclear family child rearing) in favor of a flexible system that includes BOTH methods and which respects that a balancing of influences will best produce a healthy community.

Hillary Clinton is right - It does take a village to raise a child. Her critics are also right - It does take a family to raise a child. BOTH influences need to be honored and supported. To argue about which should be supreme is a harmful waste of time as neither should be supreme IMHO.

Bill White · 2003-01-08 12:15:49

Will people be able to, or would it be practical, to allow parents the choice of opting out the kibbituz program?
If they are not allowed, or it is not practical, will you force parents?
Will people have to agree before they go to mars? So anyone who does not subscribe to this world view would be denied access to the base, or would they simply not be allowed to have children?

Social groups have lots and lots of methods for enforcing conformity that are utterly unspoken and unwritten - many times those "enforcing" conformity are not even consciously aware of what they are doing.

IMHO - preparation for being a permanent settler must include significant training on the psychology of small groups confined in small spaces.

Also, screening must include confirmation that the settlers genuinely understand and appreciate the need for group cohesion and the simultaneous need for personal space - whether for the individual or the Mom-Dad-kiddies nuclear family.

Folks who are unable to balance the need for group cohesion with the need for private space are not suitable settlers, IMHO. Its all the age old issue of the one or the many or public vs private and unless you answer "Both!" you are doomed!

IMHO, as always!

clark · 2003-01-08 12:19:44

Your points are well taken Bill, however, I do disagree with your assessment on personal free time. As Adrian will attest, not much science got done during his experience- in deed, a great deal of time was spent on the mundane, but necessary upkeep and maintenance of the hab. This will be doubly true for actual mars colonists. Then there is the matter of "paying the bills". Whatever it is the Martian colonists will be doing to afford living on Mars, or to afford the next terran shipment, they will have to do when they are not upkeeping the hab. Yes, a great deal will be automated- however, that only undermines the human presence on mars in the first place. If you have 10 people who must work 6 hours to do a job, but you can automate it so you only need 5 people- those other five people suddenly have to find something else to do. Unemployment really isn't an option on Mars.

I also don't take your assumption that educated Us-ians or whoever will be more likely to share the duties of rearing a child so equally. Sure, they pass a test- but that isn't reality. Yes, it is possible, but it is a bit more optimistic for my taste since you assume the best yet show little planning for the worst.

Who will be on Mars? People who can make a go of it- who have something to do on Mars other than have children. Children are a luxury in space Bill, not a requirement to work the farm.

Bill White · 2003-01-08 12:44:55

I do disagree with your assessment on personal free time. As Adrian will attest, not much science got done during his experience- in deed, a great deal of time was spent on the mundane, but necessary upkeep and maintenance of the hab.

I did not say excess time - there will be lots and lots and lots of mundane and utterly boring maintenance and upkeep. Thats the point.

Child care will be a privilege compared to repairing the "real" greenhab when it leaks. Chioldren will be far more interesting - and far more fun.

I agree that much work will be too hazardous to allow children nearby when doing it - but not all work.

I play with my children while I wash the dishes or write out our monthly bills but not when I cut the grass or do electrical repairs. My wife started letting our daughter crack eggs when she was only five (followed with hand washing fanaticism however) It takes a little longer but better that than ignoring them and then trying to cram in "quality time" when all the chores are done. My two year old likes to pour the soap into the dishwasher and punch the buttons to turn it on.

He then crows: "I help da-da"

There will be endless numbers of routine repairs of equipment that can be done - safely - at a table in the "comfort" of the central dining hall, between meals. Others cannot.

What about:

Doing PH checks on the hydroponics? Measuring growth of the tomato plants? Preparing meals - doing dishes - cleaning up the hab? Picking food that has been grown or cranking the compost bin round and round to mix the contents?

Settlers may also do serious IT work to help pay bills - telecommuting - many folks do that today with the kids around the house. A little harder, maybe, but it is happening right now. If I can read Keats with a two year old screaming "CHoo-CHoo!" a Mars settler can program code with a child reading a book while lying on her feet.

As far as male-female duty assignments, what sensible woman with the talent, education, motivation and drive to go to Mars will marry someone who refuses to share all the duties of a household? Perhaps some but very few IMHO.

Mars needs adults. Genuine adults who know how to live together in domestic tranquility as equals. Select those people and things will be pretty much okay.

clark · 2003-01-08 13:13:35

I believe a faith in screening to create the perfect society is foolhardy. But it is an opinion, and I much prefer your optimistic view to my less than optimistic view.

Let us now consider the submarine example. What do submariners do with their off time? How much off time do they have?

Childrearing is a privleage, just as any job is essentially a privelage. Some view some jobs as privelage, and others in a less than positive light. The idea proposed is to gather the communities children into one location- the family is comprised of your "litter-mates". Your parents, another source of guidance among many.

Palomar · 2003-01-08 13:20:22

Bill: My two year old likes to pour the soap into the dishwasher and punch the buttons to turn it on.

He then crows: "I help da-da"

*Aw. How sweet.

There will be endless numbers of routine repairs of equipment that can be done - safely - at a table in the "comfort" of the central dining hall, between meals. Others cannot.

What about:

Doing PH checks on the hydroponics? Measuring growth of the tomato plants? Preparing meals - doing dishes - cleaning up the hab? Picking food that has been grown or cranking the compost bin round and round to mix the contents?

Settlers may also do serious IT work to help pay bills - telecommuting - many folks do that today with the kids around the house. A little harder, maybe, but it is happening right now. If I can read Keats with a two year old screaming "CHoo-CHoo!" a Mars settler can program code with a child reading a book while lying on her feet.

*Egad. I'm trying to envision myself being able to read
-anything- with a screaming two year old around. ???

Mars needs adults. Genuine adults who know how to live together in domestic tranquility as equals. Select those people and things will be pretty much okay.

*Well, it's good to have input from a person here who actually has kids!

The domestic/social scene of the first settlers to Mars have the best opportunity for warmth and cohesivness...which qualities might likely become weakened as more people arrive. Then the earliest settlers and their growing children will probably resent, to whatever degree, the influx of new arrivals -- viewing them as interlopers with different ways. I wish I could see the progression of civilization on Mars over the span of, say, the first 200 years of humans living permanently on Mars; if I could be bestowed with any god-like power, I'd like that ability.

Sorry to get off track...

--Cindy

soph · 2003-01-08 14:21:32

I guess nobody liked my idea ???

clark · 2003-01-08 14:28:43

The problem I see with your suggestion is that children will be deciding what their career's are going to be.

Europe's system works to seperate college bound kids from non-college bound kids. Sine the kids that are not going to college will need to do something, they teach them a marketable skill. However, this creates class division and reduces opportunities for social mobility.

soph · 2003-01-08 14:40:32

It would actually be a combination of children, teachers, parents, and other independent observers determining this. believe me, i thought of that. as many different perspectives as reasonable possible would be considered for each child.

Palomar · 2003-01-08 14:56:11

Let me throw the proverbial moneky wrench into this scenerio:
Will people be able to, or would it be practical, to allow parents the choice of opting out the kibbituz program?

*If it were agreed upon beforehand by the majority that such a system would be in place, though an option for "outing" was officially available, opting out would still be severely frowned upon...and those opting out would face the chance of social ostracization as a result.

My parents took my sister and I out of the public school system after I completed 7th grade and my sister 9th, and we finished our education via correspondence school. This was in the days when homeschooling/correspondence schooling was very rare and seldom heard of. It was, of course, assumed in the little farming community that all kids complete high school in the public system -- except for actual dropouts, of course. Everyone in that town graduated from that high school -- unless you dropped out, died, or moved. It was a "given." The townsfolk were NOT happy about my parents' decision, and the next 4 years of life there was not pleasant. The townspeople mistook an alternate educational route for personal rejection of them.

So Clark raises a really good point. What social repercussions would result for Marsians opting out of this or that, if various systems are set up and attempted to be enforced?

Ostracization -doesn't- feel good, let me tell you.

--Cindy

soph · 2003-01-08 15:02:06

Thats why apprenticeship is good. it puts kids right into the workplace. if they drop out, they can be sent back to earth

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#1 2003-01-07 13:57:58

Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

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Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

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Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

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Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

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Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

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Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

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Re: Martian Kibbutzim - Benefits of the kibbutz model on Mars

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