Terraforming Venus

nickname · 2007-11-28 08:46:35

Terraformer,

Space elevator oh carbon is a great use for a bunch of the carbon, nice way to get more carbon and co2 off planet also.

I'm no planetary chemical engineer in any sense of the word.
I think with hydrogen and co2 you get water, free carbon and heat from the reaction.

Some c02 would immediately be converted to water and free C from just the impact with the atmosphere, most of the rest from UV processes in the upper atmosphere.

Only reason we can't do this to the current hot Venus is the h20 quickly sinks and is broken back into 0xygen and h2 as the temperature increases as you get closer to the surface.
Heated h2 is lost to space and the free oxygen consumed by free carbon.
Free carbon is cycled around the atmosphere until it finds free oxygen and become c02.
Even if we had 25 bars of hydrogen we could deliver to Venus, the Last thing the current Venus needs is heat from the water creation reaction, and super boiled steam in mass quantity that is far worse than c02 as a greenhouse gas.
Think that is how it got the way it is

A cooled Venus is a totally different ball game though, when C makes it to the surface and water builds in the lower cloud banks waiting for conditions for the first titanic rains.

On a surface Venus just below 110c i believe moisture in the clouds would start to fall as rain for a few hundred year first rain.

Terraformer · 2007-11-29 07:17:32

Iron is even better than hydogen at displacing elements. Crash a few Iron asteroids into Venus and it will get rid of a few bars of CO2 (Fe + CO2 = FeO2 + C).

nickname · 2007-11-29 17:27:17

Terraformer,

Iron is another good one to chew up a few more bars of co2.
I think you have to grind it very fine for it to work well, then just dump it into the atmosphere.

We have a very large supply of iron asteroids we can use just a bit beyond the orbit of Mars.

Terraformer · 2007-11-30 12:43:10

Any info on atmospheric scoops? Transporting some CO2 to Mercury would be handy.

Terraformer · 2007-12-02 06:56:39

Eh? I thought Hydrogen was more reactive than carbon. Not according to this.

Eyas · 2007-12-02 16:40:53

Hello. I'm new to this forum. I am not a scientist.

It seems that many of the solutions proposed for terraforming Venus are extraordinarily complex, difficult, and expensive.

Also, everyone seems to have in mind COMPLETE terraforming, to make human habitation possible.

Just wondering if it would be possible to concentrate on a small area at the pole of Venus and to try to bombard it with enough water (by directing/redirecting comets) that we could simply create a puddle of liquid water, under great pressure.

It seems to me that a puddle is all that is needed.

If the temperature in a small area were lowered enough to allow just a small amount of liquid water, it could easily be seeded with bacteria from Earth's hydrothermal vents (black smokers). These bacteria are already chemosynthetic, already tolerant of tremendous sulfur content, and already tolerant of massive temperatures and pressures.

Why try a TOTAL terraforming right of the bat? Why not just try to make a small area capable of harboring life - the most extremophile life on Earth. With slightly lower temperatures, it seems like the bacteria that thrive on hydrothermal vents are practically custom-made to live on Venus.

Get a small colony of bacterial life to thrive in a small area at the poles of Venus and stand back & let life work its magic on the atmosphere.

Just a suggestion from a neophyte.

JoshNH4H · 2007-12-02 18:13:32

Welcome to Newmars, Eyas. It was a very good idea, but according to this phase diagram

The temperature would have to be ~ 300 degrees lower to ever accomodate water on venus (10^6 Pa, 735 K). If the temperature could be lowered to 400 K, then this would be perfect. So maybe the CO2 sunshade in conjunction with this would work very well.

Terraformer · 2007-12-03 01:21:58

High, Eyas. I'm not a scientist either (which isn't to say I won't be.)

nickname · 2007-12-03 05:37:21

Hi Terraformer,

I probably didn't word it very well in my posts.

Carbon is more easily reacted with oxygen than hydrogen is.
Carbon and oxygen are not as stable as hydrogen and oxygen.

The chemistry of a cooler Venus would be ideal once it makes water, since water would sink in the atmosphere away from the UV.

Dumping hydrogen on a cooler Venus wont be an immediate reaction, UV would play a big role in stripping C and allowing hydrogen to bond.
Maybe only 10% of what you dump will have enough energy for immediate reactions, the other 90% will take its time with help from UV in the upper atmosphere.

The lack of a strong magnetic field on Venus is also going to be a problem for hydrogen losses to space.
On a cooler Venus they won't be as bad since hydrogen will bond and sink away from the UV zone, but we can still expect Venus to loose 10-20% of any hydrogen we import before it gets reacted with.

The same carbon stripping chemistry happens right now on Venus in the upper atmosphere, then Carbon simply bonds again with any free oxygen.
Free hydrogen on Venus also creates water that has a short life as it sinks, right now the Venus chemistry is almost like a hydrogen filter that eventually looses it to space.

Terraformer · 2007-12-03 08:48:59

What about Iron?

Commodore · 2007-12-03 09:29:19

Isn't Venus still volcanically active?

If the planet is still firing off these gases into the atmosphere, how much do you have to suck out to overcome that, and for how long?

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-12-03 10:28:51

Hi Terraformer,
I probably didn't word it very well in my posts.
Carbon is more easily reacted with oxygen than hydrogen is.
Carbon and oxygen are not as stable as hydrogen and oxygen.
The chemistry of a cooler Venus would be ideal once it makes water, since water would sink in the atmosphere away from the UV.
Dumping hydrogen on a cooler Venus wont be an immediate reaction, UV would play a big role in stripping C and allowing hydrogen to bond.
Maybe only 10% of what you dump will have enough energy for immediate reactions, the other 90% will take its time with help from UV in the upper atmosphere.
The lack of a strong magnetic field on Venus is also going to be a problem for hydrogen losses to space.
On a cooler Venus they won't be as bad since hydrogen will bond and sink away from the UV zone, but we can still expect Venus to loose 10-20% of any hydrogen we import before it gets reacted with.
The same carbon stripping chemistry happens right now on Venus in the upper atmosphere, then Carbon simply bonds again with any free oxygen.
Free hydrogen on Venus also creates water that has a short life as it sinks, right now the Venus chemistry is almost like a hydrogen filter that eventually looses it to space.

I think the solution is simply to hit Venus with lots of comets. Those comets should hit glancing blows on Venus going from east to west along the plane of the ecliptic, that means coming in on the sunlit side inside Venus's orbit in the direction of her revolution around the Sun. These comets serve two purposes, one is to spin up the planet and the other is to add water to it. The targeting has to be very precise, we want every comet we send there to hit Venus and to add to its angular momentum. We want to give it a decent ocean, we should also hit it with asteroids, as we don't want to add too much water to it. Eventually if terraforming is the goal we want an approximately 24 hour rotation period. Once Venus is spinning this fast, the magnetic field should take care of itself. Venus will also probably be pockmarked with craters, it will have a thick atmosphere of carbon dioxide and water vapor. Once a proper rotation rate is established we should shade the planet. I find there is no sense in shading the planet until the rotation rate is established and if has enough water vapor to make an ocean. Now the second part is to get rid of the carbon dioxide and excess nitrogen, perhaps by employing some type of artificial life. We engineer a biological cell down to its basic building blocks and then build it back up to lock in as much carbondioxide as possible, creating limestone and other carbonates. As had happened with Earth early in its history, Venus would start out as an ocean world with a number of volcanic island, the water would seep into the subduction zones of the crust and combine with the molten magma to form granite. The granite being lighter than basalt will rise to the top and form continents, true continents. This planet should probably be kept warmer than Earth with zero axis tilt and no seasons, because what is frozen stays frozen, the other alternative is to have short season and adapt life to them.

Commodore · 2007-12-03 22:30:41

You'll be able to build several sun shades/reflectors in the time it takes to aim and fire all your KBO's.

nickname · 2007-12-04 06:52:17

Hi Tom Kalbfus,

Biggest problem with comets on Venus right now is just the temperature.
Water on Venus right now would just be a problem greenhouse gas worse than c02.

Even adding hydrogen to Venus now creates a problem of super boiled steam leading to higher temperatures on Venus.

We can probably get around the magnetic field problem with just fine iron dust in orbit, its sure to create a strong magnetic field for Venus.

Seems no matter what you do with Venus is almost requires 1 step to get to the next step.

If i was making a plan to terra form Venus this is what i would do.

1. Capture a small iron asteroid in Venus orbit and pulverize it into very fine dust, spread this dust into geo as a ring.
The charged particles from the sun should turn it into a giant magnet, and this also makes a place for c02 to be attracted to.

2. Send some of Venus c02 atmosphere into geo to act as a wavelength changer for sunlight.
Keep adding until surface temperatures are safe for machines.

3. On the surface place nano bots that reproduce and fix carbon from c02.

4. collect 1km kbo's for delivery to Venus, on route use a small nuclear plant on the kbo to separate water inside a big bag, use the oxygen as propulsive fuel.
Keep adding kbo hydrogen until bar pressure is below 10bar.

5. collect iron asteroids from beyond Mars for delivery, set them into Venus orbit and crush them into fine dust.
Send the dust to impact the atmosphere to react with c02.

6. lots of fine tuning with direct kbo collisions, carbon building projects etc etc

Any one of these steps would be a world effort of gigantic proportions.
Long term effort would be an understatement for them all

Commodore,

The jury is still out on weather Venus is volcanically active or not.
Some same yes, some says its an episodal volcanic planet, some say its internally dead or stagnant.

Terraformer,

Iron is a great way to lock away c02 and free oxygen.
It's a better secondary one though as it doesn't contribute to making a wet planet, and iron requires lots of heat to alter c02.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-12-04 12:16:18

I'd figure I'd first concentrate on spinning up Venus first and then worry about shading it later. I suppose the heat of all the cometary impacts is going to melt the crust. Venus will then be like a primordial molten Earth with a spin of about 24 hours and a magnetic field. Above the molten crust would be an atmosphere consisting of water vapor and carbon dioxide and other gases. As you increase in altitude, the atmosphere gets cooler and water droplets form clouds.

karov · 2007-12-05 07:00:36

EM things hints for atmosphere retention and shading

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Caugh … n_999.html

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-12-05 10:46:14

I believe terraforming Venus will involve winding back the clock, so to speak for the planet. All the inpacts will melt the crust and make it like primordial Earth. Stacked on top of its molten surface would be an atmosphere consisting of water vapor, carbon dioxide, and nitrogen. At a certain altitude the water vapor would precipitate out of the atmosphere into clouds leaving a carbon dioxide atmosphere above. The clouds will rain, the rain will evaporate before reaches the molten surface.

Over time the molten surface will cool and solidify, and as it cools, it cracks creating fault zones and crustal plates. The water clouds will lower over time and the rain will finally contact the still hot surface and immediately boil away, after a few centuries of this, the rain will collect on the surface and as the atmosphere cools more and more of it will precipitate out, creating a global ocean. The water would then pour into the cracks forming granite. Granite being less dense rises to the top of the mantle forming the first true continents. Some specialized life form would then be introduced here to produce free oxygen and some catalyst would have to be produced to rapidly oxidize the iron, while another organism sequesters the carbon into carbonites. The process continues until a breathable atmosphere forms.

Eyas · 2007-12-05 11:35:04

Again, I feel kinda silly posting among people who understand these things better than I, but I'm very interested in the idea of terraforming Venus as opposed to Mars.

This suggestion may be totally stupid, but if you could distribute an alkaline through the clouds, wouldn't the sulfuric acid separate out into water & salt. This isn't a solution to the temp or pressure, but a way to get rid of the high sulfur in the atmosphere.

Also, couldn't rain potentially form in places and absorb CO2 as it falls - I mean most of Earth's CO2 is trapped in our oceans.

Eyas · 2007-12-05 11:37:53

Also, I didn't realize that Venus' lack of magnetism was due to its lack of spin - I guess I figured there was just no solid core or something. Is it established that lack of spin is the problem?

noosfractal · 2007-12-05 13:16:20

Also, I didn't realize that Venus' lack of magnetism was due to its lack of spin - I guess I figured there was just no solid core or something. Is it established that lack of spin is the problem?

Hi Eyas, maxie wrote about this here ...

http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5675

Basically, the current theory is that you need a metallic core that rotates at a different rate to the rest of the planet. High spin helps, but you also need a liquid layer at some point. Some people say you need a big moon like Earth has to start the system and/or keep it going.

karov · 2007-12-10 14:00:28

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Hinod … d_999.html

from such type of knowledge some day could appear tech, which to allow us to create and direct solar wing, mass coronar flares... which to provide Venus in one several earth years long "hot blazer" with ALL the hydrogen and energy necessary to turn, literaly instantly Venus in paradise planet.

Gregori · 2008-03-12 08:18:05

How big does a StarShade have to be to completely block light coming to Venus?

Obviously the smaller it can be made, the more feasible such a device would be on a reasonable timescale.

I'm thinking that an Iron rich Asteroid could be perturbed into the right orbit, and gradually reshaped and sculpted into a thin stellar shade, perhaps making it out of a simple lattice of welded metal plates.

noosfractal · 2008-03-12 15:54:20

Here are some ideas for Earth ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_shade

... Venus will be in the same ballpark.

JoshNH4H · 2008-03-12 20:09:43

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Hinod … d_999.html
from such type of knowledge some day could appear tech, which to allow us to create and direct solar wing, mass coronar flares... which to provide Venus in one several earth years long "hot blazer" with ALL the hydrogen and energy necessary to turn, literaly instantly Venus in paradise planet.

cool

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#26 2007-11-28 08:46:35

Re: Terraforming Venus

#27 2007-11-29 07:17:32

Re: Terraforming Venus

#28 2007-11-29 17:27:17

Re: Terraforming Venus

#29 2007-11-30 12:43:10

Re: Terraforming Venus

#30 2007-12-02 06:56:39

Re: Terraforming Venus

#31 2007-12-02 16:40:53

Re: Terraforming Venus

#32 2007-12-02 18:13:32

Re: Terraforming Venus

#33 2007-12-03 01:21:58

Re: Terraforming Venus

#34 2007-12-03 05:37:21

Re: Terraforming Venus

#35 2007-12-03 08:48:59

Re: Terraforming Venus

#36 2007-12-03 09:29:19

Re: Terraforming Venus

#37 2007-12-03 10:28:51

Re: Terraforming Venus

#38 2007-12-03 22:30:41

Re: Terraforming Venus

#39 2007-12-04 06:52:17

Re: Terraforming Venus

#40 2007-12-04 12:16:18

Re: Terraforming Venus

#41 2007-12-05 07:00:36

Re: Terraforming Venus

#42 2007-12-05 10:46:14

Re: Terraforming Venus

#43 2007-12-05 11:35:04

Re: Terraforming Venus

#44 2007-12-05 11:37:53

Re: Terraforming Venus

#45 2007-12-05 13:16:20

Re: Terraforming Venus

#46 2007-12-10 14:00:28

Re: Terraforming Venus

#47 2008-03-12 08:18:05

Re: Terraforming Venus

#48 2008-03-12 15:54:20

Re: Terraforming Venus

#49 2008-03-12 20:09:43

Re: Terraforming Venus

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