I herd there gonna start drafting - the draft

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-07 15:42:57

You being a white male inherently have certain opportunities that are easier to get to then say a black female living in the ghetto.

Did the color of that woman's skin land her in the ghettos? No. It was most likely a lack of education (which, I admit, are worse in urban areas) which resulted in her poverty. I won't argue that socioeconmic position is a determining factor in opportunity (ie CEO is your father; grandfather owns such-and-such corporation; etc.). But most likely the black woman's skin (or genetalia) wasn't what put her in the ghettos, and that's what we're arguing.

As for everyone else, if you think I'm being defensive, I'll back off. My apologies if I offended anyone.

clark · 2003-01-07 15:52:39

The color of her skin didn't land her in the ghetto's Cal, the color of her skin is what keeps her IN the ghetto. Most minorities in the ghetto live ther ebecuase their parents lived there- it is the history of racism that has created the situation of today.

Where do you live? Simple answer, where your parents raise you. Your parents, who are much older, lived in diffeent times, which neccessarily affects your opportunities today. We do not live in a vacum- there is a historical legacy that must be acknoledged, and must be addressed if we are to make social progress in equality for all peoples.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-07 16:03:17

What are you talking about, clark? Our economic system doesn't FORCE people to stay where they were raised, and if they do it's their own fault for not acting upon the opportunities offered to them.

The funny thing about life is, you only get one shot at it. You can't go back to high school and get better grades after you've graduated. You can't go back and not do drugs, or be involved with a gang, or have a teenage pregnancy. All bad decisions on this unfortunate soul's part. That's the ONLY reason she's stuck there is because she didn't act upon the opportunities that were possible.

clark · 2003-01-07 16:12:54

Cal, your statements will offend some because they presume a certain innocence in how the world operates.

Our economic system does force people to stay where they are raised. It is our social policies that allow us the ability to make progress.

i can be the best damn janitor on the face of the earth, but I will always be a janitor (nothign wrong with this). This limits my ability to find other jobs, or make enough money to improve my lot. Social policies geared to retrain individuals, or to help get education to develop new skills is what makes this country great.

Also, you assume that there is plenty of opportunity to be had, which just isn't the case. It might do you soem good if you vouleentered in some inner city school programs. The reason people turn to crime is because of a lack of opportunity- inner city ytouths see a chance to improve their lives by commiting crimes than by studying- this is exactly becuase there is a lack of legitimate opportunity for them.

Vast numbers of high-school students graduate through educational systems that are little more than daycare- they produce people with no skills that are marketable, and unless they can get into a college program (a neccessity today), they are relegated to minimum wage jobs and no economic viability.

You are fortunate enough to have parents that are able to provide a structure for you to understand that you need to work hard, that your early choices have a great impact on your later life, etc- but many peopel do not have such advantages- they come from broken homes, single working parent households, welfare homes- the list goes on.

Capitalism is about taking advantage of exsisting opportunities- it is not about making them- please don't forget that.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-07 16:18:43

So you admit that it is her economic position that keeps her where she is, not her sex or gender, correct?

This hypothetical woman's problems aren't mine. She screwed up, and that's her fault. I don't ever recall the law that states I have to provide a way for people who failed in the past to be able to become a CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

clark · 2003-01-07 16:35:33

No, you missed the point.

Through no fault of our own, we are born into our "situation"- be it black, white, male or female.

Poor people do not "choose" to be poor. To assume such belies either arrogance, or plain stupidity.

People are poor for any number of reasons not related to anything they have done, or the choices they can make. To assume that everyone who is poor did it to themselves is again arrogant or stupid.

If you want the psych profile you are demonstrating some classic ego maintenance. People have a hard time accepting that bad things happen to good people- or things happen at random for no reason at all. The concept is frightening to your world view- so, we create these little stories in our head that explain that these bad things can't happen to me, becuase I am a good person, and we all know that bad things only happen to bad people- and if something bad happens to someone then it must have been something they did...

Like blaming the woman who was raped for causing the assult becuase she was wearing something...

Like blaming the poor for being poor, they obviously don't have a good work ethic, or it must be something they DID...

Bad things happen to good people, and random things happen at any time no matter what anyone does.

Sometimes we have absolutely no control over a situation- kinda like where we are born, who are parents are, what we look like, what gender we are, where we live, what school we go to, how much food we get as we grow up, how many books we have available, what kind of guidance we have, etc- yet each of these things will determine what opportunities we have, or what opportunites will be denied to us.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-07 16:50:38

The modern conservative is engaged in one man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy, that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. - John K. Galbraith

clark · 2003-01-07 16:55:15

The modern conservative is engaged in one man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy, that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. - John K. Galbraith

Good quote. I will have to remember this one.

soph · 2003-01-07 17:27:12

cal: you said that shes in the ghetto because of lack of education. what can she do in todays world with no education? many kids in the ghetto have missing fathers, and many have to take care of their families, and have to drop out of high school to take multiple jobs. i used to live in a neighborhood like this.

yes, i admit it, being white gives me an advantage. theres nothing wrong with being white, its just accepting that our society is based on the WASP (im half lutheran, so im not being racist here), and always has been, since the puritans landed in Plymouth. How many blacks do you see on the Forbes list?

You can say that some people dont seize the opportunities available, but not the whole race! I know some dumb kids in my, relatively rich neighborhood, who will always be rich, because their mommies and daddies made it big. will the housekeeper ever get ahead? no, theyre more concerned about meeting the bills. what opportunity do they have?

youre right cal, you shouldnt give women an opportunity to leave the kitchen. its her fault shes there in the first place. the logic is a perfect tautology, either way, she doesnt get ahead. i hold open the door for anybody, male or female, black or white, when they walk up behind me in the hallway. does that mean im a renaissance man?

AltToWar · 2003-01-07 23:41:15

more often than most white males realize, women are discriminated against in the workplace. I have personally witnessed this myself several times.

I had 2 business partners in the 90's. They both had horrible notions of the place women should hold in the office.

I worked in a medium sized corp. in Manhattan. There was absolutely a glass ceiling in that office for women.

I once had a black business partner, and being a young boy from tennesee at the time in a very white city in the south that had just reciently ran a black family out of the public school, I inquired heavily about the situation of african american businessmen in america.

You have to understand that much of america is struggling with conflicting elements in their culture. Although most white americans believe themselves not to be racists or sexists, racial and gender steriotypes still greatly influence our judgment of others.

Every once in a while I thank god I'm not a woman. Women today have an Impossible standard that our culture asks them to live up to. To be a good modern woman, a woman today must both hold the traditional roles of mother, wife, and caregiver; but in addition they must now fulfill their own career goals as well. Add to this the pressure our culture applies to women in reguard to appearance and beauty.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-08 15:14:25

youre right cal, you shouldnt give women an opportunity to leave the kitchen. its her fault shes there in the first place. the logic is a perfect tautology, either way, she doesnt get ahead. i hold open the door for anybody, male or female, black or white, when they walk up behind me in the hallway. does that mean im a renaissance man?

Who's bending the words now, Cindy and Proteus? Haven't I told you already soph that I (and every sane human) view women and minorities as equals? That's why I get so pissed off when I hear about affirmative action. We view them as equals and we get shoved down into a hole. I feel like I'm the whipping boy for the slave-owning Americans of the 1800's.

Every once in a while I thank god I'm not a woman. Women today have an Impossible standard that our culture asks them to live up to. To be a good modern woman, a woman today must both hold the traditional roles of mother, wife, and caregiver; but in addition they must now fulfill their own career goals as well. Add to this the pressure our culture applies to women in reguard to appearance and beauty.

Don't you think that men have a difficult role in society? Read some books about how boys are being raised now and find out. It's not okay to be boyish; it's labeled ADD and treated with a big dose of Riddelin so that the parents don't have to deal with it. Sure, women still have to fufill the role of mother and spouse, but those are biological. It's not like we can say, Well, you hold down a job, so you don't have to fufill any family roles. It's not like modern men don't help with (or perform entirely) the dishes, cooking, laundry, kids, errands, etc.

clark · 2003-01-08 15:26:23

Haven't I told you already soph that I (and every sane human) view women and minorities as equals?

Well my sane and progressive friend, you must now realize that there are many people in this fine and developed country that do not neccessarily subscribe to your way of thinking. There are many who see minorities and women as inferior, not as equal- based solely on their color or their gender. Now, obviously if the world was populated with men of your great character, such laws related to affirmitive action will not be needed. Indeed, many supporters of affirmitive action would herald the day when such laws could be dispensed with, since at that moment, we declare that we are truly a color-blind society that values people not by the color of their skin, or which bathroom they must use- but by their ability.

Now, my young friend, you must also accept that there is a long and sordid history that we all live with everyday. You must accep that many wrongs have been peretrated against others, and that some method of compensation- of fairness be established so we can have a more egalitarian society.

None of this happens overnight, and it takes time to change peoples attitudes and beliefs- sometimes it takes more than a good argument- sometimes it takes action to force a cessastion of unacceptable behavior- in this case, racism.

I am sure you do not hate others for being balck or female- but there are those that do. This atttitude is changing, but it happens with time.

The Civil Rights movement occured in 1965. 37 years have gone by- most of the people alive then are still with us- those attitudes- their attitudes take time to change.

You live in Colorado, have you even looked at how gay and lesbian people are treated? This is just a matter of sexual prefrence, yet all maner of discruimination is heaped onto this subgroup of our society- hatred is all around and in many shapes, and it will be with us for a long time. We must proactively deal with the issue in order to foster social stability and provide a chance for everyone to have the opportunity of the american dream.

soph · 2003-01-08 15:49:19

When was the last time you held a steady job, cal?

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-08 21:06:23

Soph wrote:

cal: you said that shes in the ghetto because of lack of education. what can she do in todays world with no education? many kids in the ghetto have missing fathers, and many have to take care of their families, and have to drop out of high school to take multiple jobs. i used to live in a neighborhood like this.

But don't the white people living in the ghettos experience the same thing? Don't they have the same poor education, the same two-timing fathers, and the same role as income providers? It's not black. It is mostly about where you live and the opportunities you have... But don't forget. George Jefferson "moved on up" to the East side (yes, yes, he's fictional, but many people do the same thing all the time).

You can say that some people dont seize the opportunities available, but not the whole race! I know some dumb kids in my, relatively rich neighborhood, who will always be rich, because their mommies and daddies made it big. will the housekeeper ever get ahead? no, theyre more concerned about meeting the bills. what opportunity do they have?

I live in a middle-class house in a rich, Arizona vacationer's neighborhood. We know this rich family that has two kids, and they both go to private school. I go to public school, and I am still MUCH more informed on issues than either one of them will EVER be (sorry, I'm trying to be modest, but even they admit it). They get poor grades, and there's nothing that daddy's money can do to erase that. They might be able to have their parents pay for college, but it won't necessarily be a good college, and there is a surplus in our society of meanless college graduates (ie Philosophy major from a party college). But I can rest at night knowing that I don't need my parents' money because I worked to get to where I am, and I'll do okay for myself in life. It's not like I was born into wealth (remember, my dad's the UPS man and my mom's a teacher).

Nice post, clark.

You live in Colorado, have you even looked at how gay and lesbian people are treated? This is just a matter of sexual prefrence, yet all maner of discruimination is heaped onto this subgroup of our society- hatred is all around and in many shapes, and it will be with us for a long time. We must proactively deal with the issue in order to foster social stability and provide a chance for everyone to have the opportunity of the american dream.

Even better quote. But I live near (not in) a trendy ski/mountain bike town, so I'm really not the person to ask about gay tolerance. Everybody I know is pretty cool about it. Plus, my uncle's gay, so I've kind of grown up with it.

soph · 2003-01-08 21:13:24

you dont live near the ghettos, dont presume to know what its like.

and once you go to apply for a job, the skin tone shows. you can dress a white person up to look rich, but a black person always comes with that nagging preconceived idea of poverty, ignorance, etc.

it doesnt happen every day. maybe one in a thousand make their way out. its far easier for whites. ive seen black people with more qualifications get less.

george jefferson is a pipe dream, a show of the hopes and dreams of people. for most, the only seemingly hopeful way out is through sports, and thats a whole different animal.

clark · 2003-01-09 09:46:19

Cal, your points are understood. It is not your fault that you are white. You should not have to suffer for being white.

We are all born into this world equal, and we do not carry our fathers sin. I think we all can agree to this.

Now, we must also accept that there are those who abuse their position of authority and perpetuate the conditions of exclusion based on traits unrelated to a persons ability to perform the job. It is these individuals that affirmitive action laws are designed to tackle. It enables a minority, a woman, or even a white male to seek fair and equitable treatment based on ability, and not on apperance.

There are some schools that have to limit minority enrollment so they can maintain a white population. But the fact remains that whites are the predominat group in this country, and minorities, if they are a part of the American Society, should be represented in our society in fairly equal numbers to their population size within America.

If all of our senators and congressmen are white males, we as nation do not neccessarily suffer- however, it does limit the points of view, the perspectives that allow for greater opportunities.

Afterall, our nation is a melting pot- a combination of all races. t behooves us to perpetuate this melting pot into all facets of our society. Women, comprising 50% of the population should comprise at least 30-40% of all jobs. Minorities should have similar statistics as their white counterparts. yet we don't see this. We don't see enough women in the workplace, making the same dollar as their male counterparts. We don't see minorities having an equal share of the pie- they often have higher drug abuse, lower incomes, and lower life expectancies than their white counterparts- this is indicitive of the American Society failing a segment of their population.

None of this is your fault, but you must accep that inequality does exsist- indeed, it will always exsist, and it is our job, as memebers of this society, to work to end such inequality when we encounter it.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-10 15:19:14

But you're saying that because inequality exists, I have to take the hit. Why? Isn't (shouldn't) there be some other way to get rid of racial inequality?

soph · 2003-01-10 15:23:02

Who's asking you to take any hit? Youre sounding more like a martyr every day.

Stop dramatizing what people say.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-10 15:27:23

I hope I didn't dramatize this. Why should I have to move over to meet a racial quota? Don't read me wrong; minorities should be involved equally in all aspects of society, but why should my right to be successful be compromised by doing that?

Cobra Commander · 2003-01-10 15:27:58

But you're saying that because inequality exists, I have to take the hit. Why? Isn't (shouldn't) there be some other way to get rid of racial inequality?

The key is to get rid of racism without resorting to racism. This requires changing people's attitudes. It's difficult and time-consuming. Current efforts (ie quotas) actually perpetuate racism, which is what it seems Cal has been getting at.

soph · 2003-01-10 15:30:05

They do perpetuate racism, but i dont think cal understands that a middle to upper class white person isnt going to have to step over for a minority. it rarely, if ever happens.

more often, the underqualified white person gets the job. to say otherwise is ignorant.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-10 15:56:29

more often, the underqualified white person gets the job. to say otherwise is ignorant.

Not if the employer is deathly afraid of Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition coming to boycott his business if he picks a white person over a minority.

soph · 2003-01-10 15:58:55

What are you talking about?

You cant believe everything youre fed by corporations. al sharpton is a politically motivated pig, but jesse jackson is a decent man who believes in what he fights for. more often than not, jesse jackson is protesting a clear case of corporate inequality.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-10 16:02:31

Just because you believe in what you stand for, doesn't mean you aren't a politically motivated pig. You can't sit there and tell me that Jesse Jackson wouldn't like to see his mug in the White House.

soph · 2003-01-10 16:04:33

Wouldnt you?

A politically motivated pig is someone who does everything for his image. this is not jesse jackson.

but i dont see you calling bush a politically motivated pig, when everything he does is lighter on substance than it is on politics.

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