God, Creation, and the Universe Explained! - Life, the Universe, and Everything.

clark · 2003-01-02 15:32:08

I've told you I don't have a stance on this issue becuase any stance is irrelevant.

However, if I was not Catholic, is my taking you to task for slandering the leader of a religion unfounded or without merit?

If I am Catholic, would you merely refrain from discussing issues related to Catholism?

All people who call themself christian today derived their beliefs from Catholism. They devolved from the catholic interpretation, then splintered.

You claim to have your "truth" which is nothing more than a different interpretation of the word of God- the bible. You have no evidence that your interpretation is any more correct than anyone else; yet you lay judgement down on those who do not intrepret as you do.

I haven't said Catholism is the "right" belief system- I emphatically state there is either none that is correct, or they all are. I find fault with arguments that presupose that they can determine which one is right or which one is wrong- whyich is what you are doing.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-02 15:40:11

You claim to have your "truth" which is nothing more than a different interpretation of the word of God- the bible. You have no evidence that your interpretation is any more correct than anyone else; yet you lay judgement down on those who do not intrepret as you do.

But I don't need to have my interpretation of the bible proved to you or to me. I have faith that it is right, and in that I am content.

How can you be on both sides of the fence on this issue? There can only be 1 truth in the end, because obviously something exists that we all believe in; atheism could be the real "answer", or judaism, or Islam, or Catholicism. I don't know, but I have faith that mine is the right one.

clark · 2003-01-02 16:07:02

I am not any side of any fence on this issue. In my mind, there is no difference in declaring there is a god or there is not a god. In fact, declare that you are god, and it is just as credible as every other belief system.

Belief is the same no matter what you belive. Faith is exactly that- faith. Either you have faith that there is a god or there isn't a god. One or Zero. It is a binary choice, or at least that's how you are pressing the issue.

I am saying no to the two choices. I am saying that choosing either belief, is still choosing in belief at the very basis of the decision.

It's like asking me to choose between two equal shades of Orange and decide which is more orange. They are both orange, theya re all orange. Any difference is arbitray and subjective. Any choice is arbitrary and subjective.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-02 16:09:29

Okay. So you're saying that religion is all the same because its all faith, so really all decisions no matter how ludicrous are all just as credible. Okay.

But in the end, won't one religion end up being the right one? Aren't we all just trying to find the right one?

clark · 2003-01-02 16:16:40

So you're saying that religion is all the same because its all faith,

*YES*

so really all decisions no matter how ludicrous are all just as credible.

*NO*

Decisions formulated from objective fact or reason are more credible than those forumalted from belief and personal desire.

Believing that we don't float up into the upper atmosphere because of God's will is less credible than evidence that demonstrates a knowable and understandable natural process for the phenomena (gravity).

But in the end, won't one religion end up being the right one?

Not neccessarily. What if none of them are right, how could any one of them be correct than? Your question ASSUMES that there IS a right answer, but no evidence exsists to establish such an assumption.

Aren't we all just trying to find the right one?

No. We are trying to simplify our understanding of the world around us to make sensory processing easier. Simply put, we are trying to find all the round holes and put all the round pegs in them so we don't have to think anymore.

There is no right one, there is no wrong one.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-02 16:19:16

But suppose there IS a right answer to the question, and everyone else is trying to put triangle pegs into round holes? They fit okay, but they're not an exact match. Where does that leave you? Or everyone else who didn't get the right answer? I might be on the wrong side... but I guess that's faith for you.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-02 16:22:30

George, you forget that I'm a Republican. I'm really just an 80 year old WW2 veteran stuck inside of a freshman's body. I'm sure it is my parents talking, but I'm pretty comfortable with it still.

clark · 2003-01-02 16:26:32

But suppose there IS a right answer to the question, and everyone else is trying to put triangle pegs into round holes?

If there IS a "right" answer it would be self-evident to all who looked upon it.

You'll start to develop a better sense of wat you believe and why you believe it as you get older (when you develop more of your own independant identity).

If you lived in Narobi, or China, do you think you would be Protestant?

Your beliefs are a product of the society and the times you live in.

Why do you think democracy is so great?
Why do you think America is so great?

You need to learn what part of your belief are your own, and what parts are inhereited- it comes with time and experience- and with a whole lot of self-questioning.

soph · 2003-01-02 16:42:09

cal, the old testament was jewish. now, you say they were wrong about christ. what makes them right about the rest?

clark · 2003-01-02 16:50:53

What about "its right if most people want it". Does that count?

No. Most people wanted slavery prior to 1865. Did that make it right?

The point I was making though is our personal feelings are colored by the times and society we live in, it influences our perceptions, our morality, our views.

Most people view sex with children as horrendous- yet how do we determine who is and isn't a child? The States say under 18. England says 16.

Most westerners abhore canabalism- yet there are many cultures that have celebrated this ritual. Neither point of view is wrong, or correct.

Part of moving into the adult realm is reexamining your beliefs and developing your own critical thinking skills. Childhood is nothing more than brainwashing- you get told what to think, and by and large, you think it. The "rebellious" period for most teenagers is the product of a reexamination of the values and lessons they have always accepted- it's like they wake up one day and no longer take everything at face value.

AltToWar · 2003-01-02 18:33:01

Perhaps you misunderstood me. Those testaments are the fundamentals parts of salvation. The rest are important teachings that are not to be quickly discarded; in fact, most people like the teaching of the other books, even if they don't accept the parts about Jesus, salvation, etc. But being a Christian, I find those books a bit more important that the philosophical and moral parts of the bible. But only a little more important.
You're not Catholic, so you have no real appreciation for how inflamatory your idle comment is.
I have friends who are Catholic, and we can talk about this stuff just fine. Protestants are just Catholics without Popes or Saints. The fact is, and you are free to disagree with it, that I don't accept the pope as being my middle man to God. That's all. I don't see why you're so hurt.

the book of St. Matthew was written 70 years after the birth of christ.

I cant remember what I did last weekend.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-02 18:37:45

Indeed. A lot of the New Testament was written long after the fact. This is why I prefer the Gospel of Thomas as an indicator as to Jesus' inclinations (I believe the man existed, just as I believe many of the stories in the bible are based in truth- maybe not totally accurate portrayals, but indicators of actual history at least), many scholars agree that the Gospel of Thomas is probably the earliest written word of Christ.

And, heh, AltToWar... neither can I...

AltToWar · 2003-01-02 23:25:03

Most westerners abhore canabalism- yet there are many cultures that have celebrated this ritual. Neither point of view is wrong, or correct.

just for the record, there have been a few people who have claimed thatmost cases of reported canibalism by indiginous peoples were actually hearsay by rival tribes.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-03 02:07:02

If there is a right answer, why would it be self-evident? Can't people be over-skeptical, or too questioning, and pass the correct answer over?

Palomar · 2003-01-03 09:02:50

There is no right one, there is no wrong one.

*You've made similar statements repeatedly, and yet you have sometimes stated/indicated in other threads that something "disgusts" you (most recently pertaining to US policy, whether foreign or domestic).

To feel disgust implies a level of judgment, which implies a level of feeling that something is right or wrong.

How can anything "disgust" you if nothing is right or wrong?

If nothing is right or wrong, then NOTHING MATTERS. Nothing.

I don't agree with most of your viewpoints, Clark; that's well known. I just wish you could see the contradiction in your supposed stance. I've pointed it out to you many times before, but your usual response is something along the lines of I "don't understand you."

I'm not interested in getting into a debate or long-drawn-out exchange with you (we've done that so many times already, to little avail <smile>); I just wish you'd see the contradiction of what you say. Logically speaking, you cannot be disgusted with anything if you believe, as you repeatedly claim, that there is "no one right and no one wrong."

--Cindy

clark · 2003-01-03 10:11:42

Nihilism is not the answer Cindy, and I realize that. I think our misunderstanding arises due to my inability to communicate adequately the difference in our views. Put simply, it is a matter of perspective.

Nothing is inherently right or inherently wrong- these are assigned values we place on ideas, things, or actions to make better sense of those actions and what they mean to us or others. It allows for communication of concrete and abstract ideas. It is all determined by subjective positioning within the context of the issue. Have you ever read two separate accounts of the same experience? Each account is different from the other person, how they view a situation and the value attributed to the actions that occur within the experience are dependant upon the viewer.

Value is relative- just like time.

That being said, I do have opinions. I do have values. I do have a personal sense of right and wrong that I think most people would, or should agree with. Case in point, I think murder is wrong, most people agree that murder is wrong- yet there are many in this nation who think murder of political leaders or criminals is acceptable. Is there a "right" or a "wrong" here? It is murky, it is open to debate- there are multiple perspectives- multiple subjective experiences that lead to differing views. That's why I come back to the point that nothing is right or wrong, because it all depends on the situation, and who you are in the situation.

There are sides, which I do take, but the inherent value that determines the sides are arbitrary.

And I can be disgusted at something, even if I believe there is no right or wrong. Case in point: I for one don't necessarily think sex with animals is "wrong". But I certainly think it is disgusting, and I certainly wouldn't choose such a behavior for myself- yet I would also not condemn others for choosing this behavior. Maybe this is a bad example, but it gets right to the point.

And Cindy, I think we might both agree more than you realize

If there is a right answer, why would it be self-evident? Can't people be over-skeptical, or too questioning, and pass the correct answer over?

Truth is self-evident. You just "know" what makes sense and what doesn't. People can be over-skeptical, but not in the face of truth. When something is self evident, it necessarily means you cannot be skeptical.

It's like me being over-skeptical and not believing you to be a real human typing on the computer. We give you tests to see if you are a human on a computer, which you pass- yet I still question. So we all get together to meet in person, and you show up as a human- the truth is self evident. You are human. If I continue to argue the point, then I am merely delusional. Do you think most people who have read your truth and still questioned it are delusional?

Palomar · 2003-01-03 18:59:50

Do you think most people who have read your truth and still questioned it are delusional?

*Nope. I'm a proponent of "question authority/everything." Disagreement is healthy.

As a favorite philosopher of mine wrote, "All things must be examined, debated, investigated without exception and without regard for anyone's feelings..." [Denis Diderot]

As for my truth...well, I'm also a proponent of model agnosticism, and claim to be a model agnostic (even though, generally speaking, I dislike labels). All systems of belief, philosophy, etc., are tools.

Tools.

Some tools last longer, some are duller, some are sharper, some break more swiftly...some seem to benefit a lot of people, some turn out to be detrimental in the long run (whether individually or with masses of people).

I have found a tool which I know benefits me greatly -- and which has benefitted other people, and larger society, as well. But I don't demand and/or expect that others agree with me, etc.

--Cindy

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-06 22:41:35

What if the true religion ISN'T self-evident? I do have to admit that on the surface many religous practices and beliefs seem rather peculiar, and not very readily accepted. Why would the truth not be passed up?

Because there would be no point in faith if religion was self-evident. My faith tells me that God gave me free will because if I didn't accept his gift on my own, it wouldn't be the same. My faith says that everyone must choose their faith and have the opportunity to turn it down. That's just what I believe, and I've accepted it as a truth, so because you can't prove my religion is wrong (and I can't prove yours wrong either) we've reached a stalemate.

soph · 2003-01-07 05:37:53

There are green aliens living on every planet outside of our solar system that can be lived on. Well, Im right because you cant prove me wrong.

clark · 2003-01-07 10:41:19

What if the true religion ISN'T self-evident?

What if we all had purple eyes? there, a meaningless question to answer your equally meaningless question. If the "true" religion is not self evdident, how would you ever hope to know if it was true or not?

Why would the truth not be passed up?
Because there would be no point in faith if religion was self-evident.

If we *knew* we wouldn't need "faith", right? Why would you want to believe in an unknowable god? Why not just believe in Santa Claus and be done with it, it would effectively be the same thing.

My faith tells me that God gave me free will because if I didn't accept his gift on my own, it wouldn't be the same.

Your faith teaches you that God gave you the power to *choose*. And your faith teaches that God wants you to *choose* to believe in Him and follow His way, right? Your faith also teaches you that if you DON'T *choose* Him, then He will punish you for exercising your *choice* contrary to His wishes. He will reward you if you do as He wishes, He will punish you if you do as he does not wish.

I have just described the relationship I have with my pet dog.
You *choose* to be a pet.

My faith says that everyone must choose their faith and have the opportunity to turn it down.

What choice do you have if you are threatened with eternal damnation and suffering if you don't choose the *right* way?
A choice with strings attached isn't much of a "choice".

That's just what I believe, and I've accepted it as a truth, so because you can't prove my religion is wrong (and I can't prove yours wrong either) we've reached a stalemate.

Maybe I can't prove your religion is wrong, but then again, I wasn't trying to. I ask you, why would I want to prove your religion is wrong? What have I gained?

I'll continue to make the choices that are right for me, believe what is right for me- you, you can continue to live under the delusion that you make choices based on free will and not on the fear of the afterlife.

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-07 15:50:50

Quote
My faith tells me that God gave me free will because if I didn't accept his gift on my own, it wouldn't be the same.

Your faith teaches you that God gave you the power to *choose*. And your faith teaches that God wants you to *choose* to believe in Him and follow His way, right? Your faith also teaches you that if you DON'T *choose* Him, then He will punish you for exercising your *choice* contrary to His wishes. He will reward you if you do as He wishes, He will punish you if you do as he does not wish.
I have just described the relationship I have with my pet dog.
You *choose* to be a pet.

I believe that I am not worthy of God, therefore I am effectively at the level of "pet". But my religion teaches that God gave part of himself up to give me my undeserved salvation, and to turn down that gift (that is free to anyone at any time) is worthy of punishment in hell.

If I didn't choose to accept his gift, and was forced to believe, then I would be more of a pet than believing out of free will. Your pet doesn't hop out of the kenel at the pet store and say "Hey clark! I want to stay couped up in your apartment all day! Let's go!" Rather, you force him to go with you. That's not what my God wanted.

clark · 2003-01-07 16:02:26

I believe that I am not worthy of God, therefore I am effectively at the level of "pet".

So your God created you as a cripple? Why would God create something that is so completely inferior to Himself? Why would God then punish an inferior being for questioning God, an unknowable truth?

". But my religion teaches that God gave part of himself up to give me my undeserved salvation, and to turn down that gift (that is free to anyone at any time) is worthy of punishment in hell.

I understand this, but don't pretend that you have some choice in this equation.

If I didn't choose to accept his gift, and was forced to believe, then I would be more of a pet than believing out of free will.

Then why does God punish? If I choose not to accept His gift, I am punished. If I choose to accept His gift, I am rewarded. What "choice" are we really offered then?

If I hold a gun to your head, and I say you can choose between Door A or Door B, but I will kill you if you choose Door B- would you still consider that you have a choice in this situation? That's your religion. That's your God.

Your pet doesn't hop out of the kenel at the pet store and say "Hey clark! I want to stay couped up in your apartment all day! Let's go!" Rather, you force him to go with you. That's not what my God wanted.

My pet does what i want it to for fear of punishment, and for the desire to please me- which results in reward for him. My pet is not forced to do anything becuase it knows that disobediance is met with punishment (read hell) and doing my bidding results in reward (read heaven).

I could be the worst person in the world (as many claim) and my pet would still do my bidding. It is unthinking- simply devoted to me- for i am its god.

You really should think about your replies...

CalTech2010 · 2003-01-07 16:07:22

God didn't create me as a cripple. My religion believes that because God GAVE humans the choice to sin in order to make salvation special, we are all born with sin.

Then why does God punish? If I choose not to accept His gift, I am punished. If I choose to accept His gift, I am rewarded. What "choice" are we really offered then?
If I hold a gun to your head, and I say you can choose between Door A or Door B, but I will kill you if you choose Door B- would you still consider that you have a choice in this situation? That's your religion. That's your God.

Obviously you've turned down the gift without fear, clark

clark · 2003-01-07 16:24:09

My religion believes that because God GAVE humans the choice to sin in order to make salvation special, we are all born with sin.

We are all born with Sin? Ah, good ol Catholicim. So what happens to your unbaptized babies?

And I ahven't turned down any gifts, nor have any been offered as far as I am concerned.

We are born into this world to fend for ourselves, like survivors from shipwrecks we crawl onto this island of life.

None of us know how we became shipwrecked, none of us know where we came from. We just make shit up to while away the time on the island.

Josh Cryer · 2003-01-07 16:52:27

None of us know how we became shipwrecked, none of us know where we came from. We just make shit up to while away the time on the island.

Now that's quite a lovely metaphor.

Think I'll use it some time.

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