Cavern exploration

dicktice · 2007-06-10 15:44:38

The challenge of missions involving unmanned drilling into the surface of Mars is daunting to the extent of near impossibility, for a variety of reasons: chiefly bulky drill-rig, and shallowness of penetration possible with such flimsy rigs. The newly discovered "black hole caverns of Mars" would seem to sidestep that challenge, in favour of (say) lowering multipurpose instrument packages into the 100-metre diameter black holes to depths still unknown. The means of accessing these depths could include any number of automated rig discriptions. We need a whole raft of ingenious ideas from the clever Mars Society contributors who haunt these forums.

For starters, consider acquiring depth data--anything from sonically steered, autonomous balloon-borne sensor packages that sink down into a hole and out again,to self-erecting cranes straddling the opening to lower various ensor packages in and out of the hole by winching. Forget the sample/return missions carrying surface dirt,which in my opinion would be an unnecessary waste of valuable time.

cIclops · 2007-06-10 17:15:57

The cost of any surface mission is enormous, getting into a cave will cost a lot more. What's so special about these caverns compared with other places like the water ice or clay rich areas?

dicktice · 2007-06-10 20:36:58

Access to the interior of Mars is what it's all about, isn't it? So, here we are with ready-made access to the interior handed to us on a platter, so to speak, and all we have to do is figure out how to drop our instrumentation down into the holes--not dig piddling little holes to scrape dirt from, etc.

Thinking further, how about installing a lidar tight-beam line scanner to determine depth of these holes below the surface of Mars, and the shape of the bottoms directly beneath their openings, by successivly line-scanning the terrain from orbit from a suitably equipped satellite payload? It shouldn't add much to the cost of an already in-the-works orbiter, I should think. More elaborate schemes can be developed in the interim, to examine the extent and sides of these so-called caverns.

I'd chuck the whole dry soils sample-and-return schemes as a waste of time, and potentially dangerous through contamination to the health of the only home planet we've got.

dicktice · 2007-06-29 14:05:50

You know, I can't understand why no more replies to these so-called "black holes" on Mars have been submitted since the initial disclosure. I made above cockeyed suggestions just to start some discussion, but ... nothing. You'd think such readymade access points to whatever may lie beneath the surface would've galvanized mission planners into alternative actions--both the professionals at JPL as well as the armchair ones of the Mars Society. Come on! There's got to be "gold" in them thar holes--things of a kind that planetary geologists would kill for, if they only had a clue as to the interior sizes, shapes, and if these presumed caverns exist elsewhere on the Red Planet. We were beginning to think we knew enough from the recent flood of high resolution pictures from orbit, how to plan an expedition, but not any more. Not, that is, until we've investigated these holes first to the best of our ability, unmanned.

ven_aura · 2007-06-29 15:17:08

Admittedly, finding said "holes" is actually rather easy on a Martian surface as opposed to the Earth's surface. The problem with most nondestructive evaluation (NDE) technology is that plants and such get in the way, but presto, Mars doesn't have that problem. NIR and ultrasonics even could be used more readily (though they're a mite expensive).

What might not make this such an enthusiastic venture is tectonics. Mind you, I'm more of an engineer than a scientist, so this is speculation on my part. How much do we actually know about Martian tectonics? Is the risk worth the gain?

dicktice · 2007-06-30 07:57:15

I find hard to imagine any "risks" to unmanned missions due to ancient tectonics in probing the depths of these black holes on Mars, but since the question has come up the most recent data on Google (10.12.05) establishes the probable existence of plate tectonics on Mars:

[Quote]

New Map Provides More Evidence Mars Once Like Earth

NASA scientists have discovered additional evidence that Mars once underwent plate tectonics, slow movement of the planet's crust, like the present-day Earth. A new map of Mars' magnetic field made by the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft reveals a world whose history was shaped by great crustal plates being pulled apart or smashed together.

Scientists first found evidence of plate tectonics on Mars in 1999. Those initial observations, also done with the Mars Global Surveyor’s magnetometer, covered only one region in the Southern Hemisphere. The data was taken while the spacecraft performed an aerobraking maneuver, and so came from differing heights above the crust.

This high resolution magnetic field map, the first of its kind, covers the entire surface of Mars. The new map is based on four years of data taken in a constant orbit. Each region on the surface has been sampled many times. “The more measurements we obtain, the more accuracy, and spatial resolution, we achieve," said Dr. Jack Connerney, co-investigator for the Mars Global Surveyor magnetic filed investigation at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.

"This map lends support to and expands on the 1999 results," said Dr. Norman Ness of the Bartol Research Institute at the University of Delaware, Newark. “Where the earlier data showed a "striping" of the magnetic field in one region, the new map finds striping elsewhere. More importantly, the new map shows evidence of features, transform faults, that are a "tell-tale" of plate tectonics on Earth." Each stripe represents a magnetic field pointed in one directionpositive or negativeand the alternating stripes indicate a "flipping" of the direction of the magnetic field from one stripe to another.

[Unquote]

dicktice · 2007-07-04 16:24:41

Moving right along with my growing obsession with caverns on Mars: here are some biographical notes that bear upon the Themis infrared black-hole magery, which match my own ideas about the subject. (The bold-faced text near the end is what attracted my attention, since this is what I suggested a few posts back, although admittedly tongue-in-cheek.):

[Quote]

Growing up in caves

R.D. "Gus" Frederick, an explorer of dark places in the Pacific Northwest, is a fitting person to extol the benefits of martian cave dwelling.

By trade, Frederick is an instructional technologist at the Oregon Public Education Network, but his passion is clearly caves. He has been prowling in them since he was a kid.

Skylight Cave near Sisters, Oregon is a lava-flow cave with a hole in the top that lets the sun shine in.

Frederick has explored lava tubes in Oregon, Washington and elsewhere. He first brought up living in martian lava-tubes in 1996, and he presented the idea at the annual Mars Society convention last year. He describes one way the potential human homes form:

Like wax from a candle, flowing lava freezes in place. A crust forms over the top, insulating the liquid underneath, which continues flowing.

When the source of magma is exhausted, the remaining liquid lava drains out, leaving the crust and a hollow interior. Frederick says some terrestrial caves resemble subways, with ceilings more than 20 feet (6.1 meters) tall.

Where the crust is thin, a portion sometimes collapses and creates a skylight. Such holes, Frederick says, not only provide a way into a cave but could also serve as a place through which to direct sunlight.

Frederick says photos of Mars show lava-flow landforms that are similar to those on Earth, indicating the possibility of caves, which he says are probably larger than earthly caves.

Skylights on martian terrain indicate possible caves below.

"The obvious disadvantage is that you cannot choose where to put your lava-tube cave, like you can with a traditional surface habitat," Frederick says. "So any initial habitats will most likely be on the surface."

NASA and others have mocked up various overgrown canisters intended to serve this purpose.

But caves don't need to be hauled Mars-ward, proponents point out. And caves could provide protection against the harsh radiation there, which occurs because the thin atmosphere barely filters the sun. Some researchers have speculated that martian caves might hold stores of water ice.

A martian biosphere

Frederick goes further than some proponents of cave dwelling by suggesting that a translucent, inflatable balloon could be used to seal openings while still allowing light in. Settlers might then fill the cave with oxygen. Add a little water and an entire ecosystem might be possible.

"In some way it could be seen as a very primal experience," Frederick says. "Leaving the womb of Mother Earth to live within Mars."

[Unquote]

noosfractal · 2007-07-04 17:25:01

Frederick goes further than some proponents of cave dwelling by suggesting that a translucent, inflatable balloon could be used to seal openings while still allowing light in. Settlers might then fill the cave with oxygen. Add a little water and an entire ecosystem might be possible.

One fairly common sense caution I've read on this idea is that the cave floor will likely be filled with rubble (from the collapsed roof), and there might otherwise be sharp edges about that you would need to take care of first - may be even stalactite/stalagmite formations.

I definitely think we should send an airship to have a look.

dicktice · 2007-07-26 13:52:57

How about: when the dirigible aerostat approaches the black hole, it drags a line with a grapple on the end which falls down into the cavern to serve as a sort of anchor? The aerostat can then switch off power to its maneuvering propellers, and winch itself down to the opening. The payload instrumentation, including a solar mirror to provide passive illumination inside the black hole, could then be directed into the cavern to see what's in there. The "grapple" would include instrumention itself, which could be released to descend further into the cavern from the overhang while sending multispectral video imagery up the tether (as it twists and turns all the way to the bottom if it appers safe to do so) to the captive aerostat for transmission to the orbiting mother probe ,whenever line-of-sight occurs, and on then to Earth for our necessarily-offline interpretation, at leasure. The aerostat itself could have solarcell arrays, onboard batteries, send/receive antennas all within the protective envelope which, once down, need not carry lifting gas but only pressurized Martian air to maintain its shape, blimp-wise.

noosfractal · 2007-07-26 17:40:37

dicktice, you so love a mystery. It's just wonderful

niente · 2007-08-07 03:41:30

A litttle enhancement on black cave...
Is it the bottom?

dicktice · 2007-10-28 16:11:27

I guess it depends upon how the "enhancement" was accomplished. Care to illucidate, niente?

Commodore · 2007-10-28 18:25:37

Assuming the geological integrity of these caves could be determined, these would be a great place to establish a base, do to the the free radiation shielding.

Terraformer · 2007-10-29 04:57:24

Assuming the geological integrity of these caves could be determined, these would be a great place to establish a base, do to the the free radiation shielding.

I came up with that idea first, elsewhere on this site.

One extremely important note. Caves are formed by running water. Therefore liquid water must have existed on mars.

dicktice · 2007-10-29 10:33:18

Where, elsewhere--this is only a single pager, so far.

Terraformer · 2007-10-29 11:42:20

Elsewhere on this site/forum. Not the thread.

dicktice · 2007-10-31 11:31:45

Okay, here is your suggestion: "One note concerning location. The best location would me the caves. A mobile hab could then be 'driven' underground for radiation protection."
My response: How to access the caves and exploit them unmanned, is the real poser. My own suggestion would be to orbit Mars without landing on the first Mars expedition in order to utilize remotely operated devices configured as necessary to access them in realtime. A second follow-on expedition could then perform the initial landing already prepared for what they will encounter inside the cave or caves.

Terraformer · 2007-11-01 07:52:33

Commodore was talking about a manned mission.

Zydar · 2007-11-02 06:47:43

I have had an in-depth look at the terrain surrounding this anomaly. I do not think it's the entrance to a deep cavern at all. The diameter of the area in question is over 150 metres. What I do think is in this area is a huge dome-like structure, many of which can be seen in other locations on the planet, which is partially open to the atmosphere at the base as there is a heat haze drifting away from it.

There is a solid tower structure to the right-hand side which is quite high. The measurement given per pixel is 25cm, but I feel this may be incorrect and the measurement could possibly be nearer to 2.5m per pixel after further processing of the image to determine exactly what is on the surface.

The area in question is pure black with no graduation in colour. This is unusual to say the least. Maybe it would be worth researching this particular area further just to see what is at that particular location. It could be that NASA knows exactly what is under the black blob, but for some reason they do not want us to know.

Terraformer · 2007-11-02 07:28:37

Zyder, your comment belongs in the nutty conspir- I mean, the Intelligent aen life forum.

SpaceNut · 2015-06-14 20:51:02

Speaking of crazy a ready built location fit to protect a crew from radiation, the chances for underground water and so much more just waiting. Finding caves on Mars

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 … 5/abstract

Seems like we aught to be sending something to see how viable these are for a colony to start in....

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#1 2007-06-10 15:44:38

Re: Cavern exploration

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Re: Cavern exploration

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#4 2007-06-29 14:05:50

Re: Cavern exploration

#5 2007-06-29 15:17:08

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#6 2007-06-30 07:57:15

Re: Cavern exploration

#7 2007-07-04 16:24:41

Re: Cavern exploration

#8 2007-07-04 17:25:01

Re: Cavern exploration

#9 2007-07-26 13:52:57

Re: Cavern exploration

#10 2007-07-26 17:40:37

Re: Cavern exploration

#11 2007-08-07 03:41:30

Re: Cavern exploration

#12 2007-10-28 16:11:27

Re: Cavern exploration

#13 2007-10-28 18:25:37

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#14 2007-10-29 04:57:24

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#15 2007-10-29 10:33:18

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#16 2007-10-29 11:42:20

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#17 2007-10-31 11:31:45

Re: Cavern exploration

#18 2007-11-01 07:52:33

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