New Mars Forums

inzane

InActive

From: uk

Registered: 2007-07-24

Posts: 7

Re: My first post

Hello,
I have had some questions that have been on my mind for ages and this seems like the best place to ask or at least talk about certain issues I have with traveling to Mars and eventually Terraforming the place.

1) There is no means of getting a human there with out a craft that can produce a gravitational effect, which has got to be years away before anything like 'tether' or rotating technology can be applied to a space ship.

2) Mars can never hold down an atmosphere, so even if a new one where some how created it would only seep away like the old one did!

3) There is not enough magnetic field to protect the planet anyway.  Since its core was somehow compromised all those millions of years ago (I like the idea that the core partially blew out and produced the giant volcano oplympus mons in the process)

Thanks for listening

Tim

cIclops

Member

Registered: 2005-06-16

Posts: 3,230

Re: My first post

Hi inzane and welcome to NewMars!

It may be possible to travel to and from Mars without rotating the spacecraft. Astronauts on ISS have managed 6 months in micro gravity and recovered in a week or so. One cosmonaut survived about a year on Mir. Protocols involving exercise and medications could be sufficient. Artificial gravity may be the best solution of all, but it's yet to be proven.

Mars has an atmosphere right now, it's very thin. It may be enough for a long time to dome large areas and live inside them. After all we only live on a small part of this planet; 70% is covered with water and there are vast uninhabited areas of dessert, tundra, ice and mountains. BTW there's a whole section here about terraforming.

Mars has no magnetic field today and it would be nice to have a magnetosphere to protect the surface from the solar wind. The level of radiation can be reduced considerably by shielding, it's not a huge problem.  The ultimate terraforming project might be restarting the magnetic field generator

---

[color=darkred]Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget ![/color] [url=irc://freenode#space]  #space channel !! [/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/c1cl0ps]   - videos !!![/url]

JoshNH4H

Member

From: Pullman, WA

Registered: 2007-07-15

Posts: 2,564

Website

Re: My first post

1) There is no means of getting a human there with out a craft that can produce a gravitational effect, which has got to be years away before anything like 'tether' or rotating technology can be applied to a space ship.

2) Mars can never hold down an atmosphere, so even if a new one where some how created it would only seep away like the old one did!

3) There is not enough magnetic field to protect the planet anyway.  Since its core was somehow compromised all those millions of years ago (I like the idea that the core partially blew out and produced the giant volcano oplympus mons in the process)
Tim

1:  see antimatter, fusion, and fission propulsion.  Now you are right, although spinning ships might be possible.

2: I disagree.  Look at Titan: 1.5 bar atmos. (earth ~1), 1/7 gravity.  Venus, same g, 95 bar atmos.

3: The ozone layer that we would have to make might help with that.  But the core thing is interesting.  Could you tell me more about it?

-jif

---

-Josh

inzane

InActive

From: uk

Registered: 2007-07-24

Posts: 7

Re: My first post

Hi thanks for the replies, very interesting.
The thing with Mars's core is that some time in the past it somehow malfunctioned causing the magnetic field to weaken, and the suns scorching to begin.  The bit about it erupting out and causing Olympus Mons and the other volcanoes I made up, but it sounds plausible to me. Only thing is what could cause a planets magnetic core to malfunction and/or what could cause it to erupt out of the surface?

1: see antimatter, fusion, and fission propulsion. Now you are right, although spinning ships might be possible.

ah, getting there quicker!!! I will look at this, last thing I heard it was chucking nukes out the back and riding the blast.

2: I disagree. Look at Titan: 1.5 bar atmos. (earth ~1), 1/7 gravity. Venus, same g, 95 bar atmos.

I forgot about Titan.

Sheildng fom the radiation - so being realistic no one is going to be able to go for little walks on the planet are they? Can a suit shield from all that radiation and the corrosive soil?

thanks

Martian Republic

Member

From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth

Registered: 2004-06-13

Posts: 855

Re: My first post

1) There is no means of getting a human there with out a craft that can produce a gravitational effect, which has got to be years away before anything like 'tether' or rotating technology can be applied to a space ship.

There are some on this board that think that we can use current chemical rockets to make a trip to Mars. It would take six months or longer to get to Mars using a chemical rocket. One way to deal with the lack of gravity would be to tip the space craft end over end with a counter weight or another space craft on two ends of a poll with the center of gravity somewhere between those two craft. You can see this effect by taking a ball that on a string and spinning it over your head. That pull you feel is centrifugal force and that how you could generate the feel of artificial gravity for those astronauts as they fly to Mars.

Although we could probably do that, my personal favorite way to get to Mars would be to either build fission or possibly a fusion powered craft, because you could cut the time travel to Mars to a few weeks or less.

2) Mars can never hold down an atmosphere, so even if a new one where some how created it would only seep away like the old one did!

With present technologies, I don't see us Terraforming  Mars anytime soon, because of the fact that Mars only has 38% of the gravity that Earth has. That is a problem, but it not a show stopper as they say. We still can colonize Mars and as new technologies come on line and as we build a sufficient amount of infrastructure on Mars we can compensate for that lack of gravity, but it won't be a quick fix and it will need continual human intervention to start that terraformation into being more Earthlike. There are theories about how we could go about the business of de-energizing helium from obtaining escape velocity from the planet Mars. Right now we are unable able to implement something like that and it is beyond our abilities, so we basically just talk about what would be the best way to do that.

3) There is not enough magnetic field to protect the planet anyway.  Since its core was somehow compromised all those millions of years ago (I like the idea that the core partially blew out and produced the giant volcano oplympus mons in the process)

Thanks for listening

Tim

We have also talked about generating a magnetic field around Mars also to solve that lack of a magnetic field that is currently around Mars.

As far as to why Mars is in the current shape that it in. I have heard two different theories and they are:

Mars got smacked by a good size Asteroid and just about blew out it lights.

That Mars use to be a Moon of a bigger planet and was tidally locked with that other planet. That it was those tidal forces that pulled Mars into the shape it currently in. According to this theory, that planet got into a tug of war with another planet that was where the asteroid field is now. That those two planets tore each other apart freeing Mars to take it current orbit around the sun.

There are a lot of interesting theories as to what happened to Mars and such.

Larry,

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#6 2007-07-24 23:23:58

noosfractal

Member

From: Biosphere 1

Registered: 2005-10-04

Posts: 824

Website

Re: My first post

Hi Tim, welcome to New Mars.

1) There is no means of getting a human there with out a craft that can produce a gravitational effect, which has got to be years away before anything like 'tether' or rotating technology can be applied to a space ship.

It isn't like people's bones turn to jello or anything.  It is certainly deconditioning, but the astronauts return to normal once back in normal gravity. 

There is a paper floating around saying that microgravity permanently compromises the immune system, but frankly, the immune system is so poorly understood that anyone can say anything they want to and no one can contradict them.

Spinning a rocket is easy.  The problem is that the center of rotation has to be far enough away that the generated force doesn't change too much between your feet and your head.  That's where a long tether helps:

^-------o-------v

It isn't complicated.  The physics are well understood.  It hasn't been done before, but I don't understand why people are so skeptical. 

The only hard part is the deep space maneuvers - you need those adjustable thrust engines on both sides to make sure you can match thrust (otherwise you'll get some spinning that you don't want).

2) Mars can never hold down an atmosphere, so even if a new one where some how created it would only seep away like the old one did!

Yes it will seep away - but very slowly - thousands of years if we did nothing.  But we won't do nothing.  If we can build the atmosphere in the first place, it will be relatively trivial to maintain it.

3) There is not enough magnetic field to protect the planet anyway.  Since its core was somehow compromised all those millions of years ago (I like the idea that the core partially blew out and produced the giant volcano oplympus mons in the process)

I agree with cIclops - it isn't a big problem right away.  It'd be nice to be able to import plants and animals that can't adapt to a high radiation environment, but just providing a decent atmosphere with an ozone layer will go provide a lot of protection.

I think the current theory is that the core froze because it didn't have a large moon like Earth's heating it with tidal forces.

---

Fan of [url=http://www.red-oasis.com/]Red Oasis[/url]

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#7 2007-07-25 01:53:27

cIclops

Member

Registered: 2005-06-16

Posts: 3,230

Re: My first post

Sheildng fom the radiation - so being realistic no one is going to be able to go for little walks on the planet are they? Can a suit shield from all that radiation and the corrosive soil?

Sure walks will be possible in space suits. Mars has less than a 1/4 of the radiation that the moon has because it's double the distance from the Sun and its thin atmosphere helps to absorb cosmic rays. Apollo 17 astronauts walked about on the moon for over 22 hours, and lunar dust is probably more of a problem than Martian dust. The current rovers have already trundled about on, and often in Martian soil for over three years, so the effect of the soil itself is well known. 2003 technology can deal with it. By the time we get to Mars, spacesuits should be much improved and people will also have pressurized rovers to protect them from radiation.

---

[color=darkred]Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget ![/color] [url=irc://freenode#space]  #space channel !! [/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/c1cl0ps]   - videos !!![/url]

Offline

#8 2007-07-25 07:57:28

inzane

InActive

From: uk

Registered: 2007-07-24

Posts: 7

Re: My first post

This is all fantastic at last people who are in the stuff i'm in too!

That Mars use to be a Moon of a bigger planet and was tidally locked with that other planet. That it was those tidal forces that pulled Mars into the shape it currently in. According to this theory, that planet got into a tug of war with another planet that was where the asteroid field is now. That those two planets tore each other apart freeing Mars to take it current orbit around the sun.

- Yes I 've heard about this scenario, it would be interesting if upon further study of the asteroid belt it was possible for science to tell if the rocks there used to previously form a planet or not?

It isn't like people's bones turn to jello or anything. It is certainly deconditioning, but the astronauts return to normal once back in normal gravity.

- The thing that worries me is that none of the astronauts are going to be in any shape to even unfasten their seatbelts once they land on the planet, let alone feed themselves or help each other if their is a problem. I agree the answer is getting their quicker minimising the effect of zero G on the Astronaughts - although the quicker you go I would imagine the more vulnerable the craft becomes to impacts from cosmic dust and small rocks etc.

That pull you feel is centrifugal force and that how you could generate the feel of artificial gravity for those astronauts as they fly to Mars.

-sure yeah centrifugal force  - the effect is obvious at any fair ground park, can it be sustained at a constant 1 g rate for a long time? - The space vessel indeed would have to be huge, I like the idea of whole cities tucked inside vast toilet roll tubes floating around or even traveling out in space, then perhaps the crafts 'spin' can be slowed at a steady rate over the journey to acclimatise the astronauts to their new planet.

Cheers

Offline

#9 2007-07-25 15:55:38

Martian Republic

Member

From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth

Registered: 2004-06-13

Posts: 855

Re: My first post

This is all fantastic at last people who are in the stuff i'm in too!

That Mars use to be a Moon of a bigger planet and was tidally locked with that other planet. That it was those tidal forces that pulled Mars into the shape it currently in. According to this theory, that planet got into a tug of war with another planet that was where the asteroid field is now. That those two planets tore each other apart freeing Mars to take it current orbit around the sun.

- Yes I 've heard about this scenario, it would be interesting if upon further study of the asteroid belt it was possible for science to tell if the rocks there used to previously form a planet or not?

Cheers

You would be able to tell if those asteroid were the result of an exploded planet vs asteroid that formed up as a result of left over material when the solar system formed up. If it from an exploded planet, it will have a tendency to be layered with the heavier stuff being below, because of the pull of gravity on it. You also may have had flowing water or an atmosphere that was working on those asteroids. If any of those asteroids are made of granite, then that would be a sure sign that it was on a planet and generally under water when that kind of rocks or asteroids were made.

So yes, they would be able to tell whether those asteroids came from an exploded planet or formed up on there own. The technology does exist today to be able to tell how those asteroids were formed. Or we might even be able to tell by having a geologist looking over those asteroids and be able to tell us.

Larry,

Offline

#10 2007-08-01 12:03:14

alin

InActive

From: here

Registered: 2007-08-01

Posts: 2

Re: My first post

What's the name of the field that studies this ?

Offline

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noosfractal

Member

From: Biosphere 1

Registered: 2005-10-04

Posts: 824

Website

Re: My first post

Hi Tim, welcome to New Mars.

1) There is no means of getting a human there with out a craft that can produce a gravitational effect, which has got to be years away before anything like 'tether' or rotating technology can be applied to a space ship.

It isn't like people's bones turn to jello or anything.  It is certainly deconditioning, but the astronauts return to normal once back in normal gravity. 

There is a paper floating around saying that microgravity permanently compromises the immune system, but frankly, the immune system is so poorly understood that anyone can say anything they want to and no one can contradict them.

Spinning a rocket is easy.  The problem is that the center of rotation has to be far enough away that the generated force doesn't change too much between your feet and your head.  That's where a long tether helps:

^-------o-------v

It isn't complicated.  The physics are well understood.  It hasn't been done before, but I don't understand why people are so skeptical. 

The only hard part is the deep space maneuvers - you need those adjustable thrust engines on both sides to make sure you can match thrust (otherwise you'll get some spinning that you don't want).

2) Mars can never hold down an atmosphere, so even if a new one where some how created it would only seep away like the old one did!

Yes it will seep away - but very slowly - thousands of years if we did nothing.  But we won't do nothing.  If we can build the atmosphere in the first place, it will be relatively trivial to maintain it.

3) There is not enough magnetic field to protect the planet anyway.  Since its core was somehow compromised all those millions of years ago (I like the idea that the core partially blew out and produced the giant volcano oplympus mons in the process)

I agree with cIclops - it isn't a big problem right away.  It'd be nice to be able to import plants and animals that can't adapt to a high radiation environment, but just providing a decent atmosphere with an ozone layer will go provide a lot of protection.

I think the current theory is that the core froze because it didn't have a large moon like Earth's heating it with tidal forces.

---

Fan of [url=http://www.red-oasis.com/]Red Oasis[/url]

cIclops

Member

Registered: 2005-06-16

Posts: 3,230

Re: My first post

Sheildng fom the radiation - so being realistic no one is going to be able to go for little walks on the planet are they? Can a suit shield from all that radiation and the corrosive soil?

Sure walks will be possible in space suits. Mars has less than a 1/4 of the radiation that the moon has because it's double the distance from the Sun and its thin atmosphere helps to absorb cosmic rays. Apollo 17 astronauts walked about on the moon for over 22 hours, and lunar dust is probably more of a problem than Martian dust. The current rovers have already trundled about on, and often in Martian soil for over three years, so the effect of the soil itself is well known. 2003 technology can deal with it. By the time we get to Mars, spacesuits should be much improved and people will also have pressurized rovers to protect them from radiation.

---

[color=darkred]Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget ![/color] [url=irc://freenode#space]  #space channel !! [/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/c1cl0ps]   - videos !!![/url]

inzane

InActive

From: uk

Registered: 2007-07-24

Posts: 7

Re: My first post

This is all fantastic at last people who are in the stuff i'm in too!

That Mars use to be a Moon of a bigger planet and was tidally locked with that other planet. That it was those tidal forces that pulled Mars into the shape it currently in. According to this theory, that planet got into a tug of war with another planet that was where the asteroid field is now. That those two planets tore each other apart freeing Mars to take it current orbit around the sun.

- Yes I 've heard about this scenario, it would be interesting if upon further study of the asteroid belt it was possible for science to tell if the rocks there used to previously form a planet or not?

It isn't like people's bones turn to jello or anything. It is certainly deconditioning, but the astronauts return to normal once back in normal gravity.

- The thing that worries me is that none of the astronauts are going to be in any shape to even unfasten their seatbelts once they land on the planet, let alone feed themselves or help each other if their is a problem. I agree the answer is getting their quicker minimising the effect of zero G on the Astronaughts - although the quicker you go I would imagine the more vulnerable the craft becomes to impacts from cosmic dust and small rocks etc.

That pull you feel is centrifugal force and that how you could generate the feel of artificial gravity for those astronauts as they fly to Mars.

-sure yeah centrifugal force  - the effect is obvious at any fair ground park, can it be sustained at a constant 1 g rate for a long time? - The space vessel indeed would have to be huge, I like the idea of whole cities tucked inside vast toilet roll tubes floating around or even traveling out in space, then perhaps the crafts 'spin' can be slowed at a steady rate over the journey to acclimatise the astronauts to their new planet.

Cheers

Martian Republic

Member

From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth

Registered: 2004-06-13

Posts: 855

Re: My first post

This is all fantastic at last people who are in the stuff i'm in too!

That Mars use to be a Moon of a bigger planet and was tidally locked with that other planet. That it was those tidal forces that pulled Mars into the shape it currently in. According to this theory, that planet got into a tug of war with another planet that was where the asteroid field is now. That those two planets tore each other apart freeing Mars to take it current orbit around the sun.

- Yes I 've heard about this scenario, it would be interesting if upon further study of the asteroid belt it was possible for science to tell if the rocks there used to previously form a planet or not?

Cheers

You would be able to tell if those asteroid were the result of an exploded planet vs asteroid that formed up as a result of left over material when the solar system formed up. If it from an exploded planet, it will have a tendency to be layered with the heavier stuff being below, because of the pull of gravity on it. You also may have had flowing water or an atmosphere that was working on those asteroids. If any of those asteroids are made of granite, then that would be a sure sign that it was on a planet and generally under water when that kind of rocks or asteroids were made.

So yes, they would be able to tell whether those asteroids came from an exploded planet or formed up on there own. The technology does exist today to be able to tell how those asteroids were formed. Or we might even be able to tell by having a geologist looking over those asteroids and be able to tell us.

Larry,

alin

InActive

From: here

Registered: 2007-08-01

Posts: 2

Re: My first post

What's the name of the field that studies this ?