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SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Mars Frontier Outpost Could Survive With Just 22 Residents, Researchers Say

After running five different computer models over a period 28 years, the team concluded that the minimum number of colonists required is 22 to "maintain a viable colony size over the long run."

previous study

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,888

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2308.05916.pdf
20 pg's
An Exploration of Mars Colonization with Agent-Based Modeling

The topics of air food shelter applies to making the robust start with a growth potentail basewd on hard first steps to gain a foothold.

proven technologies from the ISS to allow for the sustainable production of air and water. Conversely, there is as yet no method for
the sustainable production of food in low gravity. As a result, we assume that earth shipments will deliver food but not water or air. Earth shipments deliver sufficient food for one additional earth shipment cycle (10.5kg of food per settler per week).

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

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Posts: 28,888

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Have been reading more on the steady number of those that plan to stay once a site is started and that appears to be roughly half of what we send to in this case Mars.

So, what is the cycle time of cargo that a crew requires is what is now needed to maintain the population which stays.

So is the first real landing of the minimum enough knowledge to allow for any to stay and if not, when would we start the living on Mars progression that builds on the toe and then foothold that man will attempt.

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

I think its time to keep working on a starship mission plan using what might be.
So far, we know that starship is to land 2 cargo followed by a mars cycle with 2 more outgoing and a crewed ship to mars. That is going to be a tall order to fill for planning of cargo and a selected first mission sizing to lay a path forward.

Experience the Starship interior as one of the crew

looking downward

there are many decks to see if they will work or modification will be required for what will optimize a mission.

Oldfart1939

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Registered: 2016-11-26

Posts: 2,384

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

When I initially suggested a projects'17 man crew for the first mission, I was weighing potential loss of human life due to TOO LARGE a crew, but in my opinion, more is better (many hands make the work light...). Sooner or later, exhaustion from too many tasks without any break will have serious psychological impact on the mission. We're talking an 18 month stay on Mars, initially. I know that even as a now-retired workaholic, I would need a break sometime during this exciting but stressful undertaking. Give time for everyone to go out exploring for maybe a 10 day jaunt in a Mars rover Not all at once, but as a break when the mission leader sees there is time from a specific set of tasks for crew members to go out and have their experiences of a lifetime.

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

To go allow with earlier Connex box use a lander-based similar to the sky crane design might be the ticket.

A couple of images to baseline from.

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 17,196

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

For SpaceNut re this topic ...

Thanks for giving us a reminder of OF1939's ambitious concept for an expedition.

I'd like to offer for your consideration that a drilling rig the size of the one made by the Italian company shown in the Water topic would need a crew of some size to manage the remote operations, and they would need support staff to take care of all the details of keeping everyone healthy for a two plus year on site job.

The equipment can be sent before the crew, and since the system is designed to be automated, much of the assembly can be done ahead of time by automation. However, I expect that final assembly and day-to-day operations need a human crew nearby.

(th)

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

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Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

One of the issues is that we will require mobility of equipment as we may need to drill in multiple locations to get enough easy to process water sources.

Oldfart1939

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Registered: 2016-11-26

Posts: 2,384

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

I was at one time thinking that in place of the "self driving nail" concept that the NASA brain trust (unsuccessfully) came up with would be a reprise of a Red Dragon capsule that contained a fairly heavy rotary drill system almost axially in the capsule, and a system to dispose of the spoil from drilling as well as a sampling system to determine the moisture content encountered. Said drilling system would carry with it a reasonable supply of drilling fluids to assist in the process. Not trying to do anything other than get some core samples maybe down to 25 feet to check this shallow water ice theory? Maybe set this up as a test before hand at the MDR site as an analog"mission?"

SpaceNut

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Posts: 28,888

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Oldfart1939,

This is what was planned.

Not sure if going in a circle like an open pit mine would change quantity of water yield but it serves to create living space.

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,888

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

One of the issues is sticking to a mission profile of time and numbers required for it to be possible.
Mission types are covered in the post Forty 40 Ton Mars Delivery Mechanism in post #29.

Which means time changes all that man will need and how to break down each load size to fit within the payload that we will land with.
This is the biggest of change for the ships fuel and size to be able to bring it to Mars.

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,888

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

So, what is the manifest of the 40 Mt payload delivered for 17 men to make use of that have a mass of 82kg per person.

crew member daily needs
0.59 kg Oxygen
2.75 kg drinking water
0.50 kg food prep water
0.80 food solids
0.76 sealed food water content
2.39 kg numbers include pagaing
---------------
5.74 kg total

required is 5.03 kg

captured is 1.44 kk from metabolic + water in food and wipes

17 x 5.74 kg x length of the round trip journey which is designed around the mission profile.

waste cycle out house
1.08 kg O2
3.04 kg perspiration and exhaling
1.40 kg urine
0.66 kg urine solid
0.09 kg Feces water
0.03 kg Feces solid
0.04 kg Perspiration and solids
--------------------
5.74 kg total

water to recover is 5.33 kg

So how heavy is the recycling and power requirements to get the water back for reuse.

support for crew of 6
Food, water and supplies. Mass budget: 11.5t
Extra water and supplies: Mass budget: 12t

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,888

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Thanks to Void we have another to make use of in "Mars Direct 3 is a Mars mission architecture developed by Miguel Gurrea" topic.
https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Gurrea_2021.pdf

Plus Mars direct was a 40mT payload
https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Zubrin_1991.pdf

A reuseable craft requires the means to make the fuel of choice.

Roughly 2.6 years of experience CONJUNCTION: LONG-STAY Over 500 days at Mars with crew transit time between Earth and Mars: 160 – 180 days.

These next two require high levels of fuel and causes lots of problems.

Total mission length could be roughly 2.4 years FAST-TRANSIT LONG-STAY.

Roughly 1.8 years OPPOSITION: SHORT-STAY.

First Martian habitat, including crew quarters and a common area. Mass budget: 34t

Cranes, pipes, batteries and all operating equipment. Mass budget: 13t

The rover has 2 tons of combustible methane and at least the stochiometric oxygen to combust it and that the fuel cell is 20% efficient, the rover is essentially a 5625 KWh battery. Assuming a power consumption of 200 KWh per sol, the fuel in the rover would last for 28 sols.

Fuel tanker rover. Mass budget: 4t
Water tanker rover. Mass budget: 3.5t
Pressurized Rover. Mass budget: 10t
Panel deployment rovers (6): Mass budget: 3t

10 KW for 14 years, having a mass of 1300 Kg.

Kilopower-like reactors: Mass budget: 33t
Additional solar panels/fission reactors. Mass budget: 36t

24.8 tons of panels, covering an area of 6209.4 m2.
20 KW of solar panels: Mass budget: 2t
Solar panels (20KW). Mass budget: 2t
Deployable solar panels: Mass budget: 30t

Water extraction/ice mining machinery. Mass budget: 20t
ISRU machinery and storage. Mass budget: 37t

140.4 tons of oxygen would need to be produced. carbon dioxide from the atmosphere could be electrolyzed at a rate of 1 Kg a day with a supply of 1.714 KW. They proposed a more efficient scaled-up version. Further scaling up to fit MD3, 204.75 KW over a period of 400 days would be needed to produce 140.4 tons of O2.

Scientific equipment, batteries, carbon dioxide electrolyzers and other. Mass budget: 30t

Liquid methane. Mass budget: 45t

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,888

Re: Companion fo Mars Expedition Number One; 17 crew members

Time for a plan for post 114

Thanks to Void we have another to make use of in "Mars Direct 3 is a Mars mission architecture developed by Miguel Gurrea" topic.
https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Gurrea_2021.pdf

Plus Mars direct was a 40mT payload
https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Zubrin_1991.pdf

A reuseable craft requires the means to make the fuel of choice.