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With the moderators permission, I will start this topic. If you want things another way, then please yourselves.
By combining the following two articles, I think I see a great chance to do wonderful things on many of the worlds in our solar system.
The Moon, Mars, Phobos, and Demos, are in my immediate scope of interest.
1) Extracting Oxygen and Metal Alloys from Regolith:
https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Sp … f_moondust
Quote:
ESA opens oxygen plant – making air out of moondust
2) Harnessing the power of microbes for mining in space:
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/stat … obes-space
Quote:
Harnessing the power of microbes for mining in space
My thinking is that these two can be put together, to get an abundance of needed items.
For item #1, they already wish to try to 3D print things from the "Alloys" that result from that process. Of course the Oxygen is a very desirable thing as well.
Item #2, proposes to digest regolith using microbes, in order to get wanted materials.
What I am thinking is that item #1 is like winding up a clock. The reduction of the regolith which also provides Oxygen, then primes it to be food for microbes.
To "Feed" the reduced regolith to microbes, you would need a wet container, and introduce into it whatever helps the process. Obviously water, and perhaps atmospheric chemicals, (In the case of Mars).
The intention of #2, would be to produce segregated types of materials. In some cases, a particular materials then might be run though the Process #1. This would be because in some cases, what would be produced would be an Oxide of a refined material.
Byproducts of such microbial metabolisms would be heat, and perhaps in some cases Methane or Hydrogen, depending on the particulars of a process.
Perhaps resembling the production of alcohol from sugar by yeast. In this case however, digesting reduced regolith. Perhaps again in some cases producing Methane or Hydrogen.
The Oxidizer(s) could be Oxygen, water, and perhaps perchlorates, in the case of Mars.
……..
I deeply respect the works of Dr. Zubrin, for Mars Direct, and his notions of producing propellants on Mars.
As I recall, because originally it was not expected that Hydrogen could be obtained in non-polar locations, his original idea was to fly a Mars Direct robot mission to Mars with the needed Hydrogen to come from Earth.
And then as awareness of large water ice deposits occurred, things evolved to the plans of SpaceX, that involves mining the water ice to perform the Sabatier reaction. Perfectly good thinking, but I think that down the road, what is in the content of this post might serve very well as an alternative.
…….
For an ice covered lake, the microbial process might work for some things. You could mostly control the chemical inputs to the lake, however, it might be hard to control which microbes are in it. The heat produced by the microbes would be captured into the lake as a byproduct of the process. Obviously this is just a recovery of some of the energy used to reduce the regolith.
Or else, if a more controllable method is required, then you would need some kind of canister. As in the case of making alcohol, where you only want a yeast of a type that would give best results.
To do this process on the Moon, you would have water, but might need to import Carbon. It is possible that that could come from the Earth, Mars, Phobos or Demos. Carbon could be hard dropped onto the Moon, to reduce the amount of rocket propellant required to get it there in a usable manner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
Quote:
Infrared spectra show that it has carbon-rich material found in carbonaceous chondrites. Instead, its composition shows similarities to that of Mars' surface.
The above quote is ambiguous it seems. Still with a three world sub system, I would expect that all the chemical needed to do the dual process of this post should be available from one of the worlds. Certainly if needed things could be gotten from Mars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deimos_(moon)
Quote:
Deimos, like Mars' other moon, Phobos, has spectra, albedos, and densities similar to those of a C- or D-type asteroid[citation needed]. Like most bodies of its size, Deimos is highly non-spherical with triaxial dimensions of 15 × 12.2 × 11 km,[7] making it 56% of the size of Phobos. Deimos is composed of rock rich in carbonaceous material, much like C-type asteroids and carbonaceous chondrite meteorites[citation needed]. It is cratered, but the surface is noticeably smoother than that of Phobos, caused by the partial filling of craters with regolith.[citation needed] The regolith is highly porous and has a radar-estimated density
That sounds like Carbon is part of it, at least to me.
We don't know for sure that the moons of Mars may have water, but for the moment it looks hopeful.
https://www.sciencealert.com/asteroids- … h-s-oceans
Quote:
Asteroid Samples Found With Water Hint Half Our Oceans Could Have Come From Space
MICHELLE STARR
1 MAY 2019
Samples of the asteroid Itokawa sent back to Earth from Japan's Hayabusa probe are finally revealing their secrets - including the fact that they're rich in water.
Cosmochemists have analysed tiny fragments in the samples, and for the first time measured the water content within.
Again, not enough is known about the two moons at this time to count of water, but if not, it can be had from Mars itself and be brought up to orbit.
It is possible that while the dreams of Dr. Zubrin and Elon Musk could be implemented on Mars itself, a version of the dreams of Jeff Bezos could be done inside of the Martian moons. Producing propellants and materials in orbit, inside of one or both of those moons.
While we cannot be certain that Methane could be produced from the materials of those moons, I would think that Oxygen could be.
So there would be a propellant production option in working with those moons.
While some people hope that there may be water ice in the materials of those moons, it is more likely that it could come from baking it out of the materials of those moons, if they are indeed somewhat like some asteroids carbonaceous materials with bound water may be present.
Obviously the moons could provide fine radiation protection, and inside of them could be built synthetic gravity habitats of a simulated gravity as may be desired. Perhaps various, 1 g, .38 g, 1/6 g. This could make them an excellent place to transition people from one type of situation to another.
As I have stated elsewhere, I am very interested in Oxygen as a Monopropellant. I will not specify a method, but it seems that it should be possible. This then allows the conservation of Hydrogen for situations where it would be needed such as traveling from the surface of Mars to Martian orbit, and back again.
Done.
Last edited by Void (2020-05-31 15:29:13)
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For Demos, if there are volatile substances in it's rock, perhaps:
1) Bake out the Carbon and Hydrogen compounds, maybe there could be a bit of Nitrogen as well.
2) Extract the Oxygen, by the means #1 in the previous post.
3) Secondary processing, perhaps using microbes as in #2 of the previous post.
If successful then you have a way to establish useful activity for many bodies in the Asteroid belt, the Trojans, and perhaps Earth NEO's.
And many of them could end up having human habitats inside of them.
Last edited by Void (2020-06-02 07:32:18)
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For Void re new topic
You are off to a promising start.
I will try to encourage you! This topic is the title of a book. You are still young enough to assemble the information that would become a handbook for asteroid miners and others planning settlements in various places.
This is just a guess on my part, but I am under the impression you have not yet published a book. You may well have written one, or several, but if you have published them you have kept that a secret from the forum readers.
There are already several books about mining asteroids. You may well have them in your collection, and you would (no doubt) include them in your table of references.
However, none of the books I am familiar with are concise in meeting the needs of an asteroid miner, or moon developer.
Your topic is sufficiently expansive to cover the Solar System, and editions after you have bequeathed the project to successors could carry on in remote locations.
There are members here who have a variety of talents and capabilities that could be supportive.
Edit #1: Science fiction writers have explored the theme of information availability for asteroid miners and space explorers in general.
Artificial Intelligence is a popular vehicle for delivering timely, accurate, appropriate information to a space traveler. We humans may well achieve that level of support at some point, but that time is not immediately at hand.
I think that a paper based manual is unlikely to survive far into the future, except for some artistic purpose.
The main mechanism for information delivery would seem to me likely to be a Google-like local database lookup capability. AI would evolve in such an environment, just as it can be observed to be doing on Earth.
Thus, your "manual" would be fully populated with hyperlinks, images, diagrams, explanations (at whatever depth is needed), and text.
You can try out Google searchers right now, as a way of getting a sense of how this information resource would work.
In fact, (of course) you've been doing exactly that during your time with the forum.
However, the forum is a hodge-podge of writings by a wide range of personalities.
The manual I have in mind for your topic, were you to decide to pursue it, would be superbly well organized, consistent in writing style, and a pleasure to visit for a few minutes for a solution, or longer for enlightenment.
(th)
Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-06-02 08:41:02)
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Well, I have not produced any new work so far, I have just joined several existing works from other people.
It is very satisfying to me though.
A base on the Moon...Then we will begin to see, what that gravity field does for the health of test animals, and humans.
Then to Mars.
Then if you are able to produce Metals and propellants, bring them up to Demos and begin setting up a base.
As for power for the base, fly a one way electric rocket to demos, with it's solar panels. It could maybe come from the Moon, but more likely the Earth. Ballistic capture would be used.
And then you begin indeed exploring methods to mine and inhabit asteroids.
Last edited by Void (2020-06-02 09:47:04)
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SearchTerm:BookTitle:ProcessingRegolithonVariousWorlds
SearchTerm:RegolithProcessing
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 39#p168739
Void, do you have an idea of how to write a book? Most people don't.
If you are willing to ask for help, I would be astonished of no one responded.
However, if you never ** ask ** for help, it's less likely you'll receive it.
Louis (as just one example of many) has shown a significant talent for organizing complex topics into lists.
I can't speak for Louis (of course) but if I were thinking of (in your case, editing) a book, I'd start with Louis.
There is no dishonor in providing the editing service for a useful book. The is a long history of book creation that is the result of collaborative effort.
(th)
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In situ resource use is about energy required, mass density to volume for delivery, able to be moved and complexity to modify as well as repair.
These are all with regards to need and waste created that can not be used in the next process where it can be used.
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(th) thanks for the compliment, but I would definitely feel I was plagiarizing other peoples good works. All I have done for the most part is bundle other peoples work into a package that I feel could be useful.
Spacenut, a little slag should not be that hard to deal with. Perhaps could be made into useful items.
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At first I rejected this idea, or felt like rejecting it. However, it is sort of seeming plausible to me now.
https://cosmosmagazine.com/space/astron … -it-again/
Quote:
Did Mars have rings? Will it again?
So, the idea indicates that Demos would have been born from the rings process, and that there would have been enough mass in the ring, to tidally push Demos above a geosynchronous orbit.
Phobos then would be much younger.
At the moment under those conditions I do not expect ice inside these moons.
Both moons, I believe are fluffier than standard rubble pile asteroids. That was a point of confusion for me, but now I begin that since they are rubble piles, (Most likely) The tidal forces of both any rings, the other moon, and Mars itself would tend to fluff them, up. I am guessing that they deform slightly, mostly under the influence of Mars, at this time.
So, I gather that the original moon would have a bit more than 5 times the mass of the current phobos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(m … cteristics
So if the original moon condensed from a ring left over from the formation of Mars, it may have happened before the sun became warmer.
So, the process might have been outside the snow line.
They only say that the original larger moon would have formed billions of years ago, so that is not precise enough to know.
Asteroids, and perhaps the original Martian moon as mudballs:
https://www.space.com/37490-asteroids-w … balls.html
If so, how differentiated would that body have been. It was rather small, so perhaps not that much. But, if wet inside, then clays may be left over. It seems hard to count on ice in the moons, but clay and carbonaceous materials can have volatile materials cooked out of them.
As for the precious metals and other desirable materials, if it was differentiated, they may exist as a segregate of fragments.
Or if not differentiated, then such materials may be distributed into most or all of the fragments.
And then there would have been splash-ups from impactors hitting Mars.
This is not my idea, but there could be pieces of Mars from billions of years ago, included in the materials of the moons.
So, things of interest.
Done.
Last edited by Void (2020-06-04 12:19:23)
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