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#1 2019-08-27 20:05:58

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

Puerto Rico has still not fully recovered and is now in the path of another whipping.



Puerto Rico Under State of Emergency as Tropical Storm

Tropical Storm Dorian is the fifth tropical cyclone and fourth named storm of the 2019 Atlantic hurricane season. Puerto Rico Gov. Wanda Vazquez Garced signed an executive order late on Monday declaring a state of emergency in preparation for a Category 1 hurricane hitting the island territory on Wednesday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Ri … Management

I suspect that at that level its damage will be not all that bad but it could get really bad if more of these keep pumbling this tiny little island.

As Puerto Rico Braces For Storm, DHS, FEMA To Move $271 Million To Border Operations

The removal of recovery money is stll much needed even if its going to get more if the damage is high enough.

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#2 2019-08-27 22:36:52

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,991
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Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

Let me explain. Scientists in the 1960s and 1970s were worried about global cooling. They weren't wrong. They just missed the fact the overall trend changed to global warming in 1970. Further data showed global cooling from 1855 to 1970, then rapid global warming from 1970 to 1998. So what happened? Scientists figured it out. Coal burning with those large industrial smokestacks spewed soot into the stratosphere. The stratosphere and troposphere don't mix well, so once crap gets in the stratosphere, it's very hard to get out. From 1970 environmental regulations required all coal burning power plants and coal burning anything to stop spewing soot into the stratosphere. That soot had caused the stratosphere to warm; soot is black so it absorbed heat. There's only so much heat from the Sun, all heat absorbed by the stratosphere did not reach the surface, causing global cooling. In the 1970s scientists thought it would take 6 years for soot to settle out of the stratosphere, but scientists have measured that soot directly since 1990. That soot wasn't gone until 2010.

In 1994 temperature of the planet equalled what it was before 1855. That means all global warming from 1970 to 1994 undid the man-made global cooling. But that doesn't take into account the amount of global warming that would have occurred by nature.

Looking at temperature records from 1550 to 1855, there was global warming. It was slow and steady. Assume that was the pace of nature. If humans hadn't screwed with the climate, assuming global warming would have proceeded at the same pace, then year 2000 was the temperature it was supposed to be in that same year.

Look at this another way. All the global warming from 1855 to year 2000 is equal to the global warming from 1994 to year 2000. That means the amount of global warming nature would have taken 145 years to accomplish happened in just 6 years. That makes it look really really bad. But that doesn't change the fact that in year 2000 the temperature of the planet is what it was supposed to be in that same year.

Now look at the consequences. When we had copious quantities of pollution in the stratosphere, the stratosphere was extremely hot, the surface of the ocean was unusually cool. Now the stratosphere is back to it's natural cold temperature, and the ocean is quite warm. A hurricane is a convection current between the warm surface of the ocean and the cold bottom of the stratosphere. The top of a hurricane is the top of the troposphere, where it touches the stratosphere. The greater that temperature difference, the more energy the hurricane has. Either increasing the temperature of the surface of the ocean, or decreasing the temperature of the bottom of the stratosphere. Either increases the temperature difference. By removing the pollution from the stratosphere, we caused both.

This means more energy to power hurricanes. Statistics show there are no more tropical storms per year than usual, but a greater proportion of those storms intensify to become hurricanes. More hurricanes, larger hurricanes, and more powerful (greater wind speed).

But again, compare this to the first half of the 1800s. What were hurricanes like back then? Before we heated the stratosphere and cooled the surface? Have the number of hurricanes and their strength reverted back to what they were? We don't know, because there were no satellites in the first half of the 1800s.

This has to be treated as a normal state of being. Puerto Rico will be getting more of these. The damage should have been fully repaired by now. It will happen again, and again, and again. Learn to live with it, or die.

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#3 2019-08-28 11:25:59

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,853

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

For RobertDyck ...

Thank you for the detail about the soot delivered to the stratosphere when coal plants were operating without filters.  Somehow, in trying to follow a variety of presentations about global climate change, I had missed that.

(th)

RobertDyck wrote:

Let me explain. Scientists in the 1960s and 1970s were worried about global cooling. They weren't wrong. They just missed the fact the overall trend changed to global warming in 1970. Further data showed global cooling from 1855 to 1970, then rapid global warming from 1970 to 1998. So what happened? Scientists figured it out. Coal burning with those large industrial smokestacks spewed soot into the stratosphere. The stratosphere and troposphere don't mix well, so once crap gets in the stratosphere, it's very hard to get out. From 1970 environmental regulations required all coal burning power plants and coal burning anything to stop spewing soot into the stratosphere. That soot had caused the stratosphere to warm; soot is black so it absorbed heat. There's only so much heat from the Sun, all heat absorbed by the stratosphere did not reach the surface, causing global cooling. In the 1970s scientists thought it would take 6 years for soot to settle out of the stratosphere, but scientists have measured that soot directly since 1990. That soot wasn't gone until 2010.

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#4 2019-08-28 16:22:46

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

The global warming or climate change topic is this one When Science becomes perverted by Politics.

It does contain the information about soot and also of magnetic particles that we are also lofting into the air under the heavy mining operations of the world into the artic and antartica snow plus glacier areas.

I will carry on there about this.

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#5 2019-08-28 19:35:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

Hurricane Dorian swept by Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands on Wednesday, on track for what could be landfall as a Category 3 storm in Florida over the weekend with winds of 111 mph to 129 mph along Florida's Atlantic coast sometime late Sunday into Monday afternoon. Few casualties and little confirmed damage were reported in the Caribbean as Dorian, which became a hurricane Wednesday afternoon, skirted Puerto Rico. Dorian was northeast of Puerto Rico on Wednesday night and was tracking northwest at 13 mph, with maximum sustained winds of 80 mph, the National Hurricane Center.

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#6 2019-08-30 18:30:01

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

Seems this storm is going to get even with Trump possibly at Mar-a-Lago resort
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ … ar-AAGyTu4
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hurri … ar-AAGyWTT

Trump’s feud is stupid, and the decision to move the money is a gamble that could very well look like malpractice down the road.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ … ar-AAGyKMv

gathering strength as it moves toward Florida, where it could make landfall as soon as late Monday as a Category 4 hurricane.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hurri … li=BBnb7Kz

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics … li=BBnb7Kz

Impact of taking funds from FEMA could be felt for a long time if this blows up like it might

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#7 2019-08-31 17:12:10

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

SpaceNut,

A weather event is going to "get even" with President Trump?

Dare I ask if you believe that weather phenomenon care at all about who our President happens to be?

Did I miss some new climate science report published indicating that tornados and hurricanes dislike President Trump?

I think President Trump is living rent free in your head.  He has to be the first thought you have when you wake up and the last thought you have before you go to sleep at night.  If he's not, then you are absolutely fixated on him in a way that makes me worried about you.

Edit:

If a hurricane was "getting even" with President Trump, what specific act or acts would it be taking revenge on him for?

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#8 2019-08-31 20:09:09

tahanson43206
Member
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 2,853

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

For SpaceNut .... here is a possible new topic.  I searched for "drill and down" and found 13 pages of interesting posts about looking for water and other substances, but nothing showed up along the lines of what I'm offering here.  Please move this to the right topic, as I'm sure there must be a better one than the chat.

Given that atmospheric pressure at the surface of Mars varies depending upon elevation, with the greatest pressure found in valleys, is there a point at which the pressure would equal Earth sea level pressure, if someone were to drill far enough down?

Anticipating possible replies from forum members, I'm not sure there would be a particular advantage to having a location below ground where Earth sea level pressure can be maintained without mechanical support, but perhaps there might be a reason this would be a good idea.

(th)

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#9 2019-09-02 17:20:58

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

Karma...
The status of Dorian
Hurricane hunters fly into the eye of Category 5 storm Dorian video

Trump exclaims that he has never heard of a category 5 Huricane strength... well there has been 3 before this one...

With its approach state side Hurricane Dorian update: Labor Day flight cancellations top 1,100

Current path has passed through the Ocean waters Dorian triggers massive flooding in Bahamas; at least 5 dead and its now getting closer to the coast.

As Florida preps for Hurricane Dorian, four more potential tropical systems tracked and is looking like its going to follow the coastline north.

As Hurricane Dorian, one of the strongest Atlantic hurricanes on record, slammed through the Bahamas en route towards the Southeastern United States, President Donald Trump was spotted on the links at a Trump-branded Virginia golf club.

A birds eye view Astronaut Zooms In on Hurricane Dorian, Now a Category 4 Storm, in These Space Station

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#10 2019-09-07 10:04:41

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

Lots of flooding and storm damage as it progress up the US coastline.

The islands of the Bahama's were hit hard but the near category 5 storm and now in the wake of the storm comes the looking for the fate of thoses that could not get out or were ill prepared for the damage that it would bring.

I am sure as time goes on that the count will rise.
Hurricane Dorian: thousands may still be missing as death toll hits 43

Rescuers battle to reach devastated communities as cruise ships arrive with supplies and volunteers

So where is FEMA and the efforts from the government?

Early Saturday, the center of the weakening category 1 storm was about 145 miles (233 kilometers) southeast of Nantucket, Massachusetts, and about 410 miles (660 kilometers) southwest of Halifax, Nova Scotia.

The storm, which is moving at north-east at about 25 mph (40 kph), is expected to produce hurricane conditions in parts of the Canadian province later Saturday and it is expected to leave up to 7in of rain before pushing further east as a weakened post-tropical storm by Sunday

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#11 2019-09-07 15:27:03

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

SpaceNut,

Since Hurricane Dorian didn't hit Mar-a-Lago to "get even" with President Trump, does that mean that hurricanes like President Trump?

I'm just trying to understand liberal logic, if that's even possible.

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#13 2019-09-07 19:19:00

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

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#14 2019-09-07 19:23:40

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

I keep wondering if it's possible for people to understand that if you live in an area prone to damaging natural phenomenon, that you either harden structures appropriately to deal with those phenomenon or you choose to live somewhere else.  This keeps happening every few years like clockwork.  It happened long before global warming, too.  A tin shack is not an appropriate domicile in an area subject to 100mph+ winds- unless you have the money to replace it every time it's destroyed.

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#15 2019-09-08 03:28:38

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,286
Website

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

What if you can't afford to harden the structures you live in, and no-one will let you live anywhere else? OTOH, the Japanese built disposable houses for that reason - cheap to build, and cheap to replace every few decades when an earthquake destroys them. It does seem that the modern poor are worse off in a lot of respects than they were many centuries ago.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#16 2019-09-08 14:20:25

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

Terraformer,

For starters, the poor people from the pictures I've seen have about 50 pounds of body fat on them that I don't have.  I have a hard time believing that they gained all that weight by being starved to death.  In past centuries, poor people simply starved to death.  The people on these islands were obviously eating well enough.  In past centuries, there were no gas turbine powered ships and aircraft to evacuate them and no excess wealth to feed / clothe / house them somewhere else.  If you made an egregiously bad decision about where to live, then you simply died there and nobody would self-flaggelate over your misfortune because nearly everyone else was equally poor.

The rich people of centuries past were still opulently wealthy by the standard of the time, there were just far fewer rich people.  The rich were also typically born into their wealth as well, whereas today the vast overwhelming majority of millionaires are self-made men and women who started life every bit as poor as everyone else.  Our regressives are still peddling their provably factually incorrect myth that mommy and daddy made today's rich people rich.

My grandparents scarcely had two nickels to rub together.  My parents made far more money than their parents ever did, but we basically had enough money to get by when I was a child and that was about it.  My wife and I make more money than our parents ever did.  In simple terms, that also means that our losses will invariably be more costly than the losses of our grandparents.  That doesn't mean that we're "worse-off" than our grandparents were.  They couldn't have imagined the wealth we'd enjoy today during their childhoods in the 1930's, when they scarcely had enough food to eat.

Apart from better* (and more expensive) technology, the only difference between life in centuries past and today is that capitalism provides the opportunity to become rich, whereas feudalism and communism and all other forms of totalitarianism never did and still don't.  There were far fewer implements of the modern world available back then, far fewer people, and thus the losses from extreme weather events, in terms of lives and money, was far less than it is today.  There were also far fewer entitled, self-righteous cretins whining and crying about poor people on TV while they sipped on their mocha choca latte-yaya's and surveyed the damage below from their private jets or helicopters and pontificating to the rest of us about how we should live.

* As I told Calliban, whenever someone says that a new technology is "better", the first question you should ask is, "In what way?".  Better for the seller's bottom line?  More economical for you to actually use?

To sum it all up, assertions about poor people being worse off today are factually incorrect.  All of us, even our poor people, have never had it so good.  It's a shame that so few alive today know what life was like in the 1930's.  Then again, our regressives have romanticized the past to make it seem rosier than it ever was and have removed or ignored the parts of history they disagreed with.  Today, we just have a lot of unhappy and over-privileged people, along with people who still want to live like we did a century ago, much to their own detriment.

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#17 2019-09-08 15:31:16

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

The death toll in the Bahamas, out of a population of nearly 400,000 has risen to 44.  In decades past, a hurricane nowhere near as strong would've killed thousands of people.  If life is so much worse now, how can than be?

The picture from that ABC News story (Dorian survivors desperate to evacuate Bahamas as death toll climbs to 44) shows a woman (Ryminh Nairn) with more fat on her than I've ever had at any point in time in my life.  The girl standing next to her has more fat on her than I've ever had.  The lady in the background has an arm the size of my thigh.  The only people who look a little like they might starve to death are the men wearing military uniforms.

Something doesn't add up here.  If you're starving to death with 50 pounds of fat on you, then something is clearly wrong with you- not the rest of the world.

Oh woe is me, doom and gloom, life is ending, let's run away from our problems...  blah blah blah.  Stop whining and crying and feeling sorry for yourself and get to work.

Why is it that people who coalesce around this socialism nonsense never seem to cooperate with each other and do the hard work required to make their ideology work?

Why is it always someone else's responsibility to supply the money and do the work?

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#18 2019-09-08 15:55:31

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 3,985
Website

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

It makes no sense to live in vulnerable areas,  as Kbd512 says. 

Unfortunately,  real life has little to do with making sense.  The people living there in those vulnerable areas,  fat or not,  were born there.  That is their home,  and the only circumstances they know. 

What is incumbent upon the rest of us is (1) encourage them to move to safer locations,  and (2) find some way to economically encourage that outcome. 

We can always argue about exactly how to do that.  Details.

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#19 2019-09-08 16:29:55

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

2nd time posting....

Fat is 1 part genetic, 1 part foods being consumed, 1 part how much are you eating as everyone process the intake of food differently oh and activity level of exercise is the other.

I am wwith GW with regards to either making it hard for storms to do you harm or moving if you can afford to do so.

many refugees from the storms will be coming here for help and assylum for the conditions which they are leaving. There home will be many years to recover and some will be here even longer as they restart the lives which they have now.

Of course Trump will executive order that they are not welcome and will deport them just as fast as he can as he has already done so to others.

Oh no we need more wall.....we are being invaded

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#20 2019-09-08 16:55:06

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

GW,

Yes, I'm basically saying that the people living in the Bahamas should live here in America.  There shouldn't be anybody living there unless they can afford to live there and rescue themselves if something goes wrong.  They're on an island.  Islands are surrounded by water.  The water makes evacuations complex and difficult.  Alternatively, they live in stout structures on high ground that can withstand the storms.  I don't care which, I'm just tired of paying for the stupidity of people who want to live right next to bodies of water that can destroy everything they own in short order.  I don't care which bodies of water we're talking about, either.  There's no reason people should live so close to the coastline here in America, either.  Practicality vs emotion.  Prudent thinking vs flippant dismissal of the power of water.

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#21 2019-09-08 16:59:10

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

SpaceNut,

President Trump is the one directing our military and other governmental organizations to provide aid to the people of the Bahamas.  Since they're being evacuated to America, I sincerely doubt he cares about the fact that they're here.  These are true refugees, not simply people running away from the utter failure of their latest socialist utopia.  You're just one of the people sitting in the peanut gallery criticizing everything he does.  Is life really that dull that there's nothing better to do with your time?

Edit:

Since you know so much about what President Trump should do, why don't you start a Presidential campaign like every other Democrat in the country?

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#22 2019-09-11 21:07:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

The regulation that would require the stronger building is a cost issue of affordability when you just lost everything and insurance will not pay out for the losses. Thou I agree build stronger or provide another means to leave safely when such stroms strike.

These appear to be better built
Dorian-50-dead-2500-registered-missing-in-the-Bahamas.jpg


Not a good list to be on since the inevitable is you are most likely dead...
Tentative list of the missing in Bahamas has 2,500 names

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#23 2019-09-11 22:33:30

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,486

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

SpaceNut,

History didn't start a week ago.

We've known that powerful storms move through this area with regularity for longer than the United States was a nation.

After it happens enough times, what passes for an acceptable excuse for "not knowing"?

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#24 2019-09-12 17:01:22

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

About the same reason that people still live over an underground coal fire in Pa...its there home..

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#25 2019-09-15 20:18:49

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 18,909

Re: Puerto Rico in the sight of another Huricane

Not good Helicopter pilot discovers villagers stranded in debris in the Bahamas shocked to discover this week up to 40 people but they have survived....

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