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#26 2019-10-17 12:42:43

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Could be a very stilted conversation!

SpaceNut wrote:

Someday cellphones for mars would call home to talk with neighbors and friends


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#27 2019-10-17 14:02:34

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 485

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Mars has the advantage of being outside of Earth's gravity well and having a much shallower gravity well.  If you want to build things in Earth orbit or for Earth orbit, it may be cheaper to ship materials or finished products from Mars than from Earth surface.  Mars has a complete selection of industrial elements and a relatively benign surface environment.  Maybe it is a useful staging post for colonisation of the wider solar system.  It's distance is a problem.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#28 2019-10-17 14:56:06

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

It could potentially make sense to produce propellant on Mars and ship it to LEO. Multiple launches from Earth might come under more and more environmental scrutiny for one thing. So if you could avoid all the fuelling launches from Earth, that might help. Also, on Mars you don't have to worry about a host of things: safety of neighbours, noise pollution, atmospheric pollution, things falling on massive urban populations, FAA licensing procedure, pork barrel politics, environmental impact of manufacturing, licensing, water rates, sales taxes, import duties, corporation tax and so on. Put it all together, and it's possible that Mars might be rather an attractive place to make propellant and launch it into space despite the 100 million kms you have to take it.


Calliban wrote:

Mars has the advantage of being outside of Earth's gravity well and having a much shallower gravity well.  If you want to build things in Earth orbit or for Earth orbit, it may be cheaper to ship materials or finished products from Mars than from Earth surface.  Mars has a complete selection of industrial elements and a relatively benign surface environment.  Maybe it is a useful staging post for colonisation of the wider solar system.  It's distance is a problem.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#29 2019-10-18 04:24:01

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 3,101

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

For Louis re #28 ...

Please develop your idea for a business a bit more.  There are some on this board who are looking for an economic incentive to develop Mars.

The case for making propellant on the Moon seems strong already, but Mars may have advantages.  The time needed for shipment seems irrelevant to me, because once a flow starts it will be as reliable as clockwork, regardless of the source.

(th)

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#30 2019-10-18 05:32:40

elderflower
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Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,260

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Other places have even smaller gravity wells. Ceres and Vesta (reportedly), for instance, have water from which propellant could be prepared and fired off in automatic tanker shipments with little expenditure to escape.

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#31 2019-10-18 06:31:49

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,295
Website

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Cererean Water wouldn't use rockets. A space elevator makes far more sense, particularly one extending past the synchronous point that can launch payloads without any expenditure of propellent at all.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#32 2019-10-18 08:17:48

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 485

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Phobos has an orbital speed of 2.14km/s (Mach 6.2).  A cable extended from Phobos to the top of the Martian atmosphere, would be within reach of advanced air breathing ramjet aircraft, or a fully reusable rocket vehicle.  Upon capture of the vehicle, the cable could be wound in to Phobos-Mars L1 point just a few km above the Phobos surface.  Solar/Nuclear electric powered vehicles could then be used to transfer payload from Phobos to high Earth Orbit, using Phobos surface material as reaction mass.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#33 2019-10-18 08:25:12

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 485

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

From the reference below:

'For the case of the Mars-Phobos system, the L1 point lies between Mars and Phobos, only 16.6 km from the center of the moon and only 3.1 km from the surface. The L2 point is on the far side of Phobos and only 20 meters further from the surface.'

https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/hand … sAllowed=y

A docking station could be built at the Phobos-Mars L1 point.  This would seem to make it much easier to export things from the Mars system to Earth.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#34 2019-10-18 14:26:59

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,295
Website

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Indeed, such a thing has been proposed by Hop before.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#35 2019-10-18 19:09:55

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Once we are able to get to mars we will not have the huge gravity well to contend with for near by mining of the asteriod belt for mans use to build a greater mars. Mars will make its own path once we cut the strings to earth dependance on the supply train that will be needed in early mars.

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#36 2019-10-19 16:36:55

knightdepaix
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Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 236

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Re Louis#20

louis wrote:

6. Indigenous Mars-based industry,  agriculture and services (e.g. PV panel manufacture, growing food for settlers/visitors and retail services).

First off using indigenous elements such as silicon, oxygen, carbon and hydrogen,

1. Optical fiber is manufactured for providing internet and communication on the planet.
2. Glass fiber, for insulation and else.
3. Fiberscope
4. Plastics
5. Fiberglass
6. Is inorganic nanotubes made of silicon dioxide possible on Mars
7. organic compounds as part of minerals processing.

IanM wrote:

Now that you mention it, I was thinking about oxidizing the Carbon present in Acetic and Propionic Acid into sugar (coupled with the reduction of the sulfates in regolith into elemental sulfur) that would then be fermented into CO2 as a terraformation method. The reactions, and net overall reaction, with Acetic (EDIT:Propionic) Acid would be:

SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 2C6H12O6(s) + S(s) (Chemosynthesis courtesy of Sulfate-reducing bacteria)
C6H12O6(s) -> 2CO2(g) + 2C2H5OH(l) (Fermentation, courtesy probably of yeast)
SO4^2-(s) + 4C2H5COOH(l) -> 4CO2(g) + 4C2H5OH(l) + S(s) (Overall reaction)

I did some calculations, and assuming that this solution penetrates the regolith 1 cm deep about 9.105*10^11 m^2 or 351,540 sq mi. (half the size of Alaska but twice the size of California) would be needed to create a pressure value of CO2 comparable to Earth (neglecting the polar ice caps full of CO2). However, it would work only as a supplemental terraformation method, since thus treating the entire planetary surface would produce CO2 much less than the Armstrong limit (Even with the polar ice caps).

(This paper describes Sulfate-reducing bacteria that can oxidize Acetate directly into CO2, but the downside is that it reduces sulfate into Hydrogen Sulfide, a harmful byproduct that is among other things responsible for the smell of rotten eggs.)

Perhaps such a system (or at least the first reaction), with acetic acid (or any acetate) and sulfate in the regolith, could in addition be used for the base of your chemosynthetic food chain. Life is essentially a series of redox reactions. The carbon in glucose has an oxidation state of zero, and plants (and cyanobacteria) get it from reducing the Carbon in CO2 (coupled specifically with the oxidation of water into O2), while the sulfate reducers are essentially doing a bit of the opposite, oxidizing the Carbon from Acetate and Propionate into sugars. The carbon source would have to be imported from Earth, but it is inorganic and can thus be used to kickstart the whole process. The main question is whether anybody's ever done a study on the edibility of such chemosynthesizers (as well as their nutrition for such things as fat and protein), which I think somebody should certainly do. Another drawback is that oxygenic photosynthesis is much more energetically rewarding on Earth (which is why it is the predominant form of autotrophy today), although the limited CO2 in the atmosphere and much lower sunlight could change that.

Instead of sulfate, other minerals with abundant oxygen can be used for making glucose. Propanoic acid itself is made from ethene, water and carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide can be made from the reversed water-gas shift reaction (RWGS). Ethene can be made from oxidative coupling of methane. The by-product water from RWGS and the coupling is reused or electrolyzed to hydrogen and oxygen.

I might have already posted the following previously, but...

For terraforming Mars, fluorine atoms are needed for making fluorocarbons.
So fluorine or hydrogen fluoride waste from industry are turned into silicon tetrafluoride and shipped into LEO. Even fluorine gas or liquid hydrogen fluoride can be shipped if safety can be ensured.
On LEO, fluorides are made out of NEO, asteroids and even collected space garbage. Fluorides are then shipped to Mars.
On Mars, using the separation method in nuclear industry separates fluorides of individual elements. If possible, the fluoride of an element reacts with carbon dioxide to give the oxide and fluorocarbons. In one way or many other, fluorocarbons, oxygen, oxides and raw elements are made. They all have their uses on Mars.
Last but not least, indigenous Mars-based industry can fix hazardous elements into their fluorides and ship them to LEO.

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#37 2019-10-19 17:48:07

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Hi Knight,

Fibreglass I believe can be made from basalt fibres and there is plenty of basalt on Mars.  I hadn't realised until I looked just now that basalt's chemical composition varies hugely but I haven't heard anything to suggest we couldn't use Mars basalt to make this useful material (and it's not a v. sophisticated manufacturing process I believe).

Basalt can also be cut, polished and formed (under heat for the latter) to make flooring, wall lining, kitchen utensils, bathroom fittings and furniture such as coffee tables. I think it has some uses in plumbing as well.

Of course, once we have our farm habs set up on Mars we can start growing useful materials like bamboo that have thousands of uses.  The great thing about plants is that they do a huge amount of "processing" themselves.

Of course when we are talking about terrformation we are talking about TRILLIONS of tons of atmosphere...so I am a little sceptical about transferring even the most powerful greenhouse gases from Earth to Mars.

I think this has got to be essentially a Mars-based effort.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#38 2019-10-22 15:00:12

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 236

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

louis wrote:

2. Mars exports to Earth (e.g. regolith, meteorites, gold, materials for science research, novelty goods and luxury manufactures)
6. Indigenous Mars-based industry,  agriculture and services (e.g. PV panel manufacture, growing food for settlers/visitors and retail services).
7. Sale of Mars-related items (often copyrighted) back on Earth e.g. films, books and so on. TV and film rights would come under this.

Radioisotope thermoelectric generator
Earth companies and governments would sell or export high yield waste product of nuclear fission such as Strontium-90 to a nuclear factory on Mars. That factory would use RTG to heat carbon dioxide and steam as working fluid for energy generation. The heated CO2 and steam could be energy and atoms sources of endothermic reactions to generate simple organic molecule including carbon monoxide; hence you have plastics. (case#2) and carbonyls for metallurgy and organic reaction catalysts.

That factory also would work on mining the stable decay metals. In Sr-90 case, it is zirconium. Zr can be an alloy in the steel or aluminium industries. So well chosen alloys out of zirconium, silicon, aluminium, iron, boron, carbon, magnesium, calcium, sulfur, oxygen could be made. (case#6). Copyrighted blends of nanomaterials out of plastics and those metals could be made. (case#7)

A concern would be that the transport and maintenance of nuclear waste product could be great issue including mismanagement leading to fallout?

Last edited by knightdepaix (2019-10-23 08:19:30)

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#39 2019-10-22 16:58:11

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

I imagine getting the licence to export the nuclear waste from Earth to Mars will be the problem. Nuclear waste on Mars is not an issue with minimal population, lots of land and high radioactivity in any case (plus an extraplanetary heat source can only be good for terraformation!

I'd have no objection to nuclear waste processing on Mars and think it would be relatively safe. But I just don't see anyone agreeing to rockets flying the stuff through our atmosphere, with the attendant risk of a flight failure.



knightdepaix wrote:
louis wrote:

2. Mars exports to Earth (e.g. regolith, meteorites, gold, materials for science research, novelty goods and luxury manufactures)
6. Indigenous Mars-based industry,  agriculture and services (e.g. PV panel manufacture, growing food for settlers/visitors and retail services).
7. Sale of Mars-related items (often copyrighted) back on Earth e.g. films, books and so on. TV and film rights would come under this.

Radioisotope thermoelectric generator
Earth companies and governments sell or export high yield waste product of nuclear fission such as Strontium-90 to a nuclear factory on Mars. That factory using RTG to heat carbon dioxide and steam as working fluid for energy generation. The heated CO2 and steam can be an energy and atoms source of endothermic reactions to generate simple organic molecule including carbon monoxide; hence you have plastics. (case#2) and carbonyls for metallurgy and organic reaction catalysts.

That factory also works on mining the stable decay metals. In Sr-90 case, it is zirconium. Zr can be an alloy in the steel or aluminium industries. So well chosen alloys out of zirconium, silicon, aluminium, iron, boron, carbon, magnesium, calcium, sulfur, oxygen can be made. (case#6). Copyrighted blends of nanomaterials out of plastics and those metals can be made. (case#7)

A concern is that the transport and maintenance of nuclear waste product can be great issue including mismanagement leading to fallout?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#40 2019-10-22 18:39:46

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

The rocket failure is dependant on the mode of failure as it could land in the oceans in a deep area and have no issues at all. The stuff would be in steel cases to limit the particles in the first place if it did break up. If it should explode then an added charge to spread the debri is what you would want so as to make it even thinner. This would reduce radiation risk even further as if its high in the path to orbit some will even burn up.

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#41 2019-10-23 04:04:14

elderflower
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Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,260

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Burn up is a chemical change and has no effect on the nuclear radioactivity. The radio isotope still exists and continues to emit radiation but is converted from, say, the carbide or a metallic state to the oxide.

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#42 2019-10-27 20:51:34

knightdepaix
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Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 236

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

re elderflower #41

can fission product such as Iodine-135 capture a neutron from oxygen-16, yielding I-136 and O-15? I-136 gives itself to Xe-136 and O-15 to N-15?

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#43 2019-10-27 21:25:30

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

What is inferred in transmutation or in modern terms isotopic reactions with the various isotopes with a bit of help from heat or pressure to cause the reaction to occur. This is what happens in the Ecat for nickle and lithium....

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#44 2019-10-28 19:04:09

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 236

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

SpaceNut wrote:

What is inferred in transmutation or in modern terms isotopic reactions with the various isotopes with a bit of help from heat or pressure to cause the reaction to occur. This is what happens in the Ecat for nickle and lithium....

May you sir, SpaceNut, explain more about that?

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#45 2019-10-28 19:11:37

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

I think this will give aid from one of our topics....
Transmutation breakthrough?

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#46 2019-10-29 19:59:39

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 236

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

Can incoming cosmic ray onto Mars be focused on a designated area when imported nuclear waste atoms are transmuted by energized protons?

For example Zr-93 + protons = Nb-94 + protons = Mo-95 stable.
The 92.9064760 + 1.00782503225 + 1.00782503225 - 94.9058421 = 0.0162739 atomic mass units
0.0162739 atomic mass units x 931.49 MeV = 15.158975111 MeV = 2.42847 x 10-12 J
1 gram of Zr-93 generates 2.42847 x 10*-12 x 6.02214076 x 10*23 * 92.9064760 = 1.35872 x 10*14 J

For comparison, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of … e_(energy)
6×10*14 J    Energy released by an average hurricane in 1 second.
1×10*15 J    Yearly electricity consumption in Greenland as of 2008

So 1 gram of Zr-93 can support just 50 days of energy consumption in Greenland as of 2008
1 kilogram means 13 years and 255 days but settlement shall develop for more population and exported product and travel from Mars consume energy.

So can we assume that one kilogram of one isotope means 10 years of prosperity?
The Molybdenum is consumed in nitrogenase; therefore nitrogen fixation in greenhouse with nitrogen gas could be possible.

For the other six long-lived fission products,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-live … on_product

Tc99 + 1H1 = Ru 100 stable. This looks attractive because Ruthenium is a very active catalyst for the Fischer-Tropsch fixation of carbon monoxide and hydrogen to hydrocarbons.
Recalling that nuclear factory on Mars shall use carbon dioxide, water and steam as working fluid. Both can be broken down in endergonic reactions to give carbon monoxide and hydrogen. Then,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E … #Catalysts
Ruthenium is the most active of the FT catalysts. It works at the lowest reaction temperatures, and it produces the highest molecular weight hydrocarbons. It acts as a Fischer–Tropsch catalyst as the pure metal, without any promoters, thus providing the simplest catalytic system of Fischer–Tropsch synthesis, where mechanistic conclusions should be the easiest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44OU4JxEK4k

Sn126 + 1H1 + 1H1 + 1H1 + 1H1 = Xe 130 stable or sn126 + 4n = with 3 radioisotopes of t1/2 in hours and days to I-127 stable. This looks more interesting than Xe-130. I-127 is then supplied in food and condiments for the settlers.
Se79 + 2He4 = Kr83 stable or Se79 + n = Se80 stable + n = Se81 (t1/2=18.45 minutes) = Br81.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organobro … ImpCBr.png
With ethene produced already with nuclear waste energy, vinly bromide, 1,2-dibromoethene and bromoacetic acid can be prepared without mining a chlorine source.
Cs135 + 1H1 = Ba136 stable
Pd107 + 2He4 = Cd111 stable or Pd107 + 1H2 = Ag109 stable or Pd107 + n = Pd108 stable + n = Pd109(t1/2=13.7012hours) = Ag109 metastate(t1/2=39.6seconds) = Ag109. This looks particularly attractive because of electronics use.
I129 + 1H1 = Xe130 stable

Shall the stable Xe130 be released to thicken very thin lunar atmosphere even though xenon is going to be ionized by cosmic rays? Therefore, I129 can be used on Moon for that reason.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2019-10-30 14:26:15)

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#48 2019-10-30 14:29:49

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 236

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

So each custom-made (Ecat) electricity or heat cogenerator use only 1 radioisotope at a time? That means separation process on the nuclear waste.

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#49 2019-10-30 18:17:08

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,235

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

The E-cat while its starts with mildly isotopic elements its the weak hydrogen that sacrifices to make the others no longer nuclear in transaction. There is very little seperation required in the end of a spent rod.

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1504/1504.01261.pdf
On the Nuclear Mechanisms Underlying the Heat Production by the E-Cat

https://www.americanelements.com/isotopes.html
Some are more stable than others with regards to what we can use for the cold reaction.

Month-long study finds heat released by Rossi E-Cat and isotope changes in fuel suggest low-temp nuclear reaction taking place

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#50 2019-10-31 09:27:08

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,854

Re: An Economic Model for Mars

E Cat is a highly controversial technology. Many people think it is a fraud though it has never been definitively proven so...on the other hand, if it was genuine why isn't it on sale.

That said, there continues to be progress made in the area of cold fusion/LENR from reputable organisations:

https://e-catworld.com/2019/10/30/berke … n-at-will/

It's not impossible we might see a sudden and real breakthrough in this technology.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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