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Interesting video by Martian Wolf on the neglected area of communications with Mars (particularly from 06:00 onwards):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeCLFOlXrfc
He notes we will need large attenae on Mars to communicate large amounts of data with Earth. That will be an important part of Mission One I think - having a much larger and more powerful ground transmitter/receiver than we have seen on robot missions.
Note also that Space X will be dependent on the Deep Space Network...that's why it is so important for it to keep in with NASA. There is no way they could build such a network themselves. Maybe at some future date they could create one in orbit, but for now I think they are reliant on the DSN, or there will be no Space X mission to Mars.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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Louis-
What is actually needed is a constellation of Mars orbiting communications satellites interconnected to one another by frequency. The big Mars-based antenna would be screened from direct communication with Earth for 12.5 hours of our day. This was part of my proposed Mars-based GPS proposal.
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I always wondered what phone numbers and telecommunications would be like on Mars. Being rather americentric, I always imagined that Mars would use the North American Numbering Plan with a currently unused area code (maybe 627 for "MARs", which was used briefly to overlay 707 in NorCal but has been dormant since). I do assume that Martians would largely keep their current phone numbers, but depending on how many countries are represented that might be an issue, so maybe a special international calling code may apply (not to mention the charges that an interplanetary call may incur).
For technology I think IPv6 would be the sole version of IP allowed on Mars, since IPv4 is not compatible with it and in any case is essentially exhausted on Earth.
EDIT: I don't think dial-up would be of much use on Mars, but here's a cool video explaining the sounds you hear from the modems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp47x1EabqI.
Last edited by IanM (2018-10-31 19:21:21)
The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky
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Satelites circling mars would not only be an uplink for the ground signals but a repeating system to be able to forward the information to the earth facing side for transmitting.
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Between Orbital ATK, Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Aerojet-Rocketdyne, and SpaceX, we already have the tools required to make this happen. It's just a matter of money. It's not optional if we intend to have a permanent human presence on Mars.
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The only one investing there own money is and has been Space X and then going to get the contracts for that investment.
All of the others are working for contracts to do the work and looking for more contracts to make what they should be doing via hard selling the items.
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Lasers or Optical Sat Communication?
Singapore’s foray into space: Boldly going where no little red dot has gone before
https://cnalifestyle.channelnewsasia.co … one-333266
Over the past four years, Singapore-based start-up Transcelestial has made a device called Centauri, about the size of a shoe box. Its aim: To provide internet connectivity that is around 1,000 times faster, or more, than now.
It just needs to connect to a satellite using laser communications — no, make that a global satellite network the company wants to put into space.
Astrolight Demonstrates Space-to-ground Laser Communication Link
https://spaceref.com/space-commerce/ast … tion-link/
Military experiment demonstrates intersatellite laser communications in low Earth orbit
https://spacenews.com/military-experime … rth-orbit/
Another topic, discussion of the cancelled MTO, 'Point de Lagrange' from other planets to Mars and reflection of radio in the Martian ionosphere https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5456
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Voice-over-laser from LEO to the surface was done as an experiment during one of the Gemini missions in the 1960's. The hardest part back then was accurately pointing the hand-held laser. We can do better than that now.
GW
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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We also have a separate 'Communication on Mars' thread
NASA uses laser system to perform fastest data transfer ever in space
https://interestingengineering.com/inno … r-in-space
The laser-based system transferred 3.6 terabytes in six minutes, which is roughly equivalent to one million songs.
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NASA laser communications terminal delivered for Artemis II lunar mission
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China uses laser for 10 times faster satellite-to-ground data transfer
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NASA to demonstrate laser communications from Space Station
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NASA's Deep Space Triumph: Laser Light Data Transmission Achieved from 10 Million Miles Away
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Not Getting Enough Data From Mars? Set Up A Solar System Pony Express
https://www.universetoday.com/164559/no … y-express/
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Shining a light on NASA's deep space laser communication test
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Shin … t_999.html
NASA's Psyche mission launched on 13 October 2023 on a journey to explore what could be the exposed metallic core of an ancient planet.
Riding along on board the Psyche spacecraft is an additional technology demonstration. NASA's Deep Space Optical Communication (DSOC) demonstration will test the use of lasers to transmit and receive more data with distant spacecraft than is possible with the radio waves currently in use.
Using a narrow laser beam to communicate with a spacecraft located 300 million km away presents a challenge on both interplanetary and quantum scales. However, if successful, the DSOC demonstration could unlock a world of new possibilities for future deep space missions.
ESA will participate in the DSOC demonstration in 2025 and work has begun to develop the required cutting-edge laser technology and ground infrastructure in Europe.
"Fibre optic technology on Earth has enabled incredible data transfer speeds for applications like the internet," says Clemens Heese, the Head of the Optical Technologies section at ESA's European Space Operations Centre in Darmstadt, Germany. "However, data transfer with spacecraft at interplanetary distances is still limited to the use of radio waves."
"We have already shown that optical communication can offer much higher data rates for Earth observation and telecommunications satellites in low-Earth orbits. But to use it at deep space distances, we need high-power, high-accuracy lasers and super-sensitive single-photon detectors that simply do not yet exist with the required performance."
By using pulses of light with a higher frequency than radio waves, optical communication enables the transfer of more data in a given time period. This higher data rate could allow future deep space missions at certain distances from Earth to carry more sophisticated scientific instruments and return significantly more data than is currently possible.
However, testing new technology on a deep space mission, where every kilogram of payload has to be very carefully selected, is a rare opportunity. NASA's DSOC is the first chance to build more trust in deep space optical communication and enhance its readiness for use in space flight.
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the dominant era of radio might be coming to an end, some report 10 which is 16.09 million km others report 19 million miles or 30.57 million km
a cat video streamed 19 million miles from deep space
Psyche uses solar-powered Hall-effect thrusters for propulsion,
Earth Received a Message Laser-Beamed From 10 Million Miles Away in NASA Test
https://www.sciencealert.com/earth-rece … -nasa-test
The Psyche spacecraft with the laser transceiver
'The Psyche mission is a journey to a unique metal-rich asteroid orbiting the Sun between Mars and Jupiter'
https://web.archive.org/web/20220302102 … ons/psyche
Science Goals
Understand a previously unexplored building block of planet formation: iron cores.
Look inside terrestrial planets, including Earth, by directly examining the interior of a differentiated body, which otherwise could not be seen.
Explore a new type of world. For the first time, examine a world made not of rock and ice, but metal.Science Objectives
Determine whether Psyche is a core, or if it is unmelted material.
Determine the relative ages of regions of Psyche's surface.
Determine whether small metal bodies incorporate the same light elements as are expected in the Earth's high-pressure core.
Determine whether Psyche was formed under conditions more oxidizing or more reducing than Earth's core.
Characterize Psyche's topography.Scientific Instruments and Investigations
Multispectral Imager
Gamma Ray and Neutron Spectrometer
Magnetometer
X-band Gravity Science InvestigationDeep Space Optical Communication (DSOC)
The Psyche mission will test a sophisticated new laser communication technology that encodes data in photons at near-infrared wavelengths (rather than radio waves) to communicate between a probe in deep space and Earth. Using light instead of radio allows the spacecraft to communicate more data in a given amount of time. The DSOC team is based at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.
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For Mars_B4_Moon ....
Thank you for your reports in post #17 ....
The hint about the dominance of the electromagnetic spectrum in the lower frequencies is definitely interesting (to me for sure!)
The term "radio" is generally understood to include all frequencies up to and including Very High Frequency.
The implication of your report (which I've not yet had a chance/time to pursue) is that bandwidth above the "radio" spectrum may become more active in coming Earth years, and the laser test by NASA sure looks like a positive indicator.
I'm hoping you will continue to provide forum readers with updates in this important area.
My guess is that the Universe may provide communications technologies other than the electromagnetic spectrum.
Gravity waves have been proposed by at least one science writer. It would take an advanced civilization to manipulate a small black hole to send data bits, but apparently the physics is supportive of the concept.
I've forgotten how the technology would have worked, but if anyone is interested the work done in this area may be recorded somewhere in the Internet.
However, I think the work being done with quantum pairing has the greatest promise, because (I'm vague on this next point) apparently quantum pairing is instantaneous regardless of physical separation of the paired particles. That would (or could) lead to the "ansible" so fondly used by science fiction writers since it was "invented" by Orson Scott Card.
(th)
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Tahanson
As I understand it is bandwidth and data rate which has people most interested in laser, you can focus laser into a beam but that's not unique with a fireman's hose pipe you can focus water into a beamed jet and you can also focus radio, metal construction acting as mirror reflectors to direct and focus the beam of electromagnetic energy to emit close to a perfect parallel plane wave. With no focus the electromagnetic energy is isotropic going out in all directions like a noise or 'sound' wave or ripples on a pond however as good as this is to form a mental image it can be incorrect to compare electromagnetism with sound. The 'loss' while ignoring other factors like diffraction, resistance of wires, background noise, reflections etc is 1/ 4 π r2 the Letter 'Lambda' a Greek letter is used to represent wavelength in formulas. This way of looking at receiving and transmission is a simplification ignoring other effects like Polarization, the Superposition, Faraday effect or Faraday rotation, wave interference and 'Harmonics', use of Amplification or Software to remove 'Noise'...we will ignore all those factors. That Yagi–Uda antenna you would sometimes see on rooftops took waves from the multiple elements then enhances radiation in a single direction, like focusing the voice the energy of sound into a megaphone or cups with strings attached. Going from the ground on Mars to the ground on Earth is not perfect, there will be clouds, ionization layers, atmosphere that reflects or absorbs frequency, diffraction events, certain parts of the electromagnetic spectrum 'blocked' just as our Earth's atmosphere blocks frequencies, it takes larger objects to block the longer wavelengths but beaming a communication from one satellite to another would be less complicated in regard to 'loss'. It can be bad to compare it all to 'sound' because Electromagnetic propagation is not dependent on air, also unlike sound waves, the wavelength is so big it can transmit anywhere around the city, pass through walls and diffract around something like a building. If a transmission is not focused it has huge loss just as any physical sound seems less noisy over distance or any torch light seems less bright over distance so the beam is focused like a laser, any transmission of energy has loss of radiance over distance due to both attenuation and the inverse square law the biggest 'Advantage' over traditional radio is the Bandwidth where it can transmit data rates 10-100 times faster than the state-of-the-art radio. Radio is like your old internet connection watching the website or image load slowly, the site slowly loads pixel by pixel while Laser is your high speed internet connection with High Definition video. Digital to Analog and then transmitting samples back into Radio and Taking the Wave and putting it back into a Digital Signal and 'Conversion Techniques' are a whole subject by themselves and people have made good careers knowing this stuff, when dealing with these science ideas I tend to class news on sciences into category.
1 Stuff we know well and use
We can build boats, rockets, canons, vitamin pills, wheel chairs, build a Radio, use Newtonian Physics...that is not to say we 'know everything' we can improve, it is not to say that we can not make a better rocket or better vitamin pill or better wheel chair or make a more efficient Radio for example.
2 Stuff we know exists we have the data but it can go into the futurist speculative fringe territory, quantum entanglement, ideas on Artificial Intelligence, a possibility of a 'Fusion Reactor' a new Anti-Matter particle seen at Cern or Fermilab, the recently discovered 'gravity waves' ideas like nanotech or genetic engineering. We start to slowly move into areas of the unknown here, new sciences but we have yet to figure out how to fully apply this newly discovered stuff. NASA for example knows the Gravity Wave is a real thing but is unsure if a 'Gravition' exists but still had plans for space probe to accurately measure gravitational waves, find these 'ripples' in the fabric of spacetime and then took at pulsars, neutron stars, blackholes, binaries of compact stars, then use Gravity Waves to study speculative astrophysical objects which do exist or do not exist and then come up with more answers and discover more questions....near term future science.
3 Weird 'Cosmo' stuff about wormholes, suspended animation, evidence of alien life, a new physics theory about hidden dimensions parallel to our own? dark energy etc I tend to post in those 'out there' cosmology threads the very fringe scifi stuff, we have indicators it is real its something that might exist but there is no evidence of people building anything of use yet nor application for it perhaps useful as a 'philosophical debate'
We know laser communication is real today, it is no longer speculation. It is 'Stuff we know well and use very well' since they began building and testing these new experimental satellites and now I think it is only inevitable that laser and then other parts of the electromagnetic spectrum replaces radio when talking with Mars or sending data back and forth to the Martians.
GW Johnsons post says we have been doing all this since the 1960s and mentions an experiment during one of the Gemini missions
other parts of the spectrum? deep-UV or ultraviolet C
DUV improvements
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1 … 2/8/081801
UVC has gained considerable attention due to its non-line-of-sight ability, omnidirectional communication links and low background noise.
Deep-ultraviolet light communication in sunlight using 275-nm LEDs
https://pubs.aip.org/aip/apl/article-ab … n-sunlight
and some news
Starlink on Mars? NASA Is Paying SpaceX to Look Into the Idea
https://www.universetoday.com/166864/st … ng-spacex/
NASA has given the go-ahead for SpaceX to work out a plan to adapt its Starlink broadband internet satellites for use in a Martian communication network.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (Today 06:18:15)
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