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SpaceX organizes inaugural conference to plan landings on Mars
Attendees are being asked to not publicize the workshop or their attendance.
Eric Berger- 8/6/2018
ArsTechnica.com
No one can deny that SpaceX founder Elon Musk has thought a lot about how to transport humans safely to Mars with his Big Falcon Rocket. But when it comes to Musk's highly ambitious plans to settle Mars in the coming decades, some critics say Musk hasn't paid enough attention to what people will do once they get there.
However, SpaceX may be getting more serious about preparing for human landings on Mars, both in terms of how to keep people alive as well as to provide them with something meaningful to do. According to private invitations seen by Ars, the company will host a "Mars Workshop" on Tuesday and Wednesday this week at the University of Colorado Boulder. Although the company would not comment directly, a SpaceX official confirmed the event and said the company regularly meets with a variety of experts concerning its missions to Mars.
This appears to be the first meeting of such magnitude, however, with nearly 60 key scientists and engineers from industry, academia, and government attending the workshop, including a handful of leaders from NASA's Mars exploration program. The invitation for the inaugural Mars meeting encourages participants to contribute to "active discussions regarding what will be needed to make such missions happen." Attendees are being asked to not publicize the workshop or their attendance.
Life on Mars
The meeting is expected to include an overview of the spaceflight capabilities that SpaceX is developing with the Big Falcon rocket and spaceship, which Musk has previously outlined at length during international aerospace meetings in 2016 and 2017. Discussion topics will focus on how best to support hundreds of humans living on Mars, such as accessing natural resources there that will lead to a sustainable outpost.
Through this meeting, SpaceX hopes to engage more deeply with both NASA and the scientific community that have studied these questions in depth for decades—but have regularly been frustrated by the space agency's lack of progress toward getting people to Mars. One scientist attending the meeting told Ars, "I have some confidence that SpaceX will eventually achieve its goal of getting to Mars, and this feels like an exciting opportunity to be part of that story and to influence the future of humans on the Red Planet."
The workshop features three co-hosts: Paul Wooster, who is SpaceX's principal Mars development engineer; Margarita Marinova, senior Mars development engineer; and Bobby Braun, dean of the College of Engineering & Applied Science at CU Boulder. Braun, a former chief technologist for NASA, has worked with SpaceX on projects in the past.
In response to a query from Ars, Braun released the following statement about the conference: "CU Boulder and its Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics are proud to host a broad swath of representatives this week from across academia, government, and industry in a discussion of Mars surface exploration technologies," he said. "As the nation's hub for aerospace innovation, hosting meetings with an industry partner like SpaceX is part of what we do."
SpaceX and NASA
Braun, who became a dean at CU Boulder in 2017, has elevated the university's aerospace profile, and the meeting represents a coup as the university nears completion of a $101 million aerospace building. That facility will include a mission control for experimentation on the International Space Station, a Dream Chaser simulator, and an indoor flight environment for drones and other flying vehicles without humans on board.
"From flying payloads to the International Space Station with NASA to partnering with Colorado aerospace giants like Ball Aerospace, United Launch Alliance, Sierra Nevada, DigitalGlobe, and Lockheed Martin in research and workforce development, to developing and operating next-generation space science payloads and missions across the Solar System—CU Boulder is advancing innovation across the aerospace sector," Braun said.
It seems noteworthy that several NASA scientists who study the Red Planet (and the potential for human landings) will attend the workshop. Although NASA and SpaceX have an excellent relationship through the commercial crew and cargo program to fly provisions and people to the International Space Station, there is some overlap and potential competition in deep space.
Both NASA, with public money, and SpaceX, through private investment, are developing very large rockets that will enable humans to fly into deep space. Both NASA and SpaceX ultimately want to send humans to Mars. A workshop like this could ultimately plant seeds that result in collaboration rather than competition in the years to come. That seems especially possible given the Trump administration's stated desire for NASA to work closely with commercial space companies like SpaceX and its innovative technologies, such as reusable launch vehicles.
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More brilliant news!
It's definitely the sort of thing you would expect if Space X are serious about their timetable, because time is getting short for landing, location, propellant production and life support planning.
SpaceX organizes inaugural conference to plan landings on Mars
Attendees are being asked to not publicize the workshop or their attendance.
Eric Berger- 8/6/2018
ArsTechnica.comNo one can deny that SpaceX founder Elon Musk has thought a lot about how to transport humans safely to Mars with his Big Falcon Rocket. But when it comes to Musk's highly ambitious plans to settle Mars in the coming decades, some critics say Musk hasn't paid enough attention to what people will do once they get there.
However, SpaceX may be getting more serious about preparing for human landings on Mars, both in terms of how to keep people alive as well as to provide them with something meaningful to do. According to private invitations seen by Ars, the company will host a "Mars Workshop" on Tuesday and Wednesday this week at the University of Colorado Boulder. Although the company would not comment directly, a SpaceX official confirmed the event and said the company regularly meets with a variety of experts concerning its missions to Mars.
This appears to be the first meeting of such magnitude, however, with nearly 60 key scientists and engineers from industry, academia, and government attending the workshop, including a handful of leaders from NASA's Mars exploration program. The invitation for the inaugural Mars meeting encourages participants to contribute to "active discussions regarding what will be needed to make such missions happen." Attendees are being asked to not publicize the workshop or their attendance.
Life on Mars
The meeting is expected to include an overview of the spaceflight capabilities that SpaceX is developing with the Big Falcon rocket and spaceship, which Musk has previously outlined at length during international aerospace meetings in 2016 and 2017. Discussion topics will focus on how best to support hundreds of humans living on Mars, such as accessing natural resources there that will lead to a sustainable outpost.
Through this meeting, SpaceX hopes to engage more deeply with both NASA and the scientific community that have studied these questions in depth for decades—but have regularly been frustrated by the space agency's lack of progress toward getting people to Mars. One scientist attending the meeting told Ars, "I have some confidence that SpaceX will eventually achieve its goal of getting to Mars, and this feels like an exciting opportunity to be part of that story and to influence the future of humans on the Red Planet."
The workshop features three co-hosts: Paul Wooster, who is SpaceX's principal Mars development engineer; Margarita Marinova, senior Mars development engineer; and Bobby Braun, dean of the College of Engineering & Applied Science at CU Boulder. Braun, a former chief technologist for NASA, has worked with SpaceX on projects in the past.
In response to a query from Ars, Braun released the following statement about the conference: "CU Boulder and its Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics are proud to host a broad swath of representatives this week from across academia, government, and industry in a discussion of Mars surface exploration technologies," he said. "As the nation's hub for aerospace innovation, hosting meetings with an industry partner like SpaceX is part of what we do."
SpaceX and NASA
Braun, who became a dean at CU Boulder in 2017, has elevated the university's aerospace profile, and the meeting represents a coup as the university nears completion of a $101 million aerospace building. That facility will include a mission control for experimentation on the International Space Station, a Dream Chaser simulator, and an indoor flight environment for drones and other flying vehicles without humans on board.
"From flying payloads to the International Space Station with NASA to partnering with Colorado aerospace giants like Ball Aerospace, United Launch Alliance, Sierra Nevada, DigitalGlobe, and Lockheed Martin in research and workforce development, to developing and operating next-generation space science payloads and missions across the Solar System—CU Boulder is advancing innovation across the aerospace sector," Braun said.
It seems noteworthy that several NASA scientists who study the Red Planet (and the potential for human landings) will attend the workshop. Although NASA and SpaceX have an excellent relationship through the commercial crew and cargo program to fly provisions and people to the International Space Station, there is some overlap and potential competition in deep space.
Both NASA, with public money, and SpaceX, through private investment, are developing very large rockets that will enable humans to fly into deep space. Both NASA and SpaceX ultimately want to send humans to Mars. A workshop like this could ultimately plant seeds that result in collaboration rather than competition in the years to come. That seems especially possible given the Trump administration's stated desire for NASA to work closely with commercial space companies like SpaceX and its innovative technologies, such as reusable launch vehicles.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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critics say Musk hasn't paid enough attention to what people will do once they get there
Choices are exploration plus science as a sortie or full mission cycle, Settlement colonization with a slow build up or mars or bust population bloom....
As far as landing the BFR on Mars we do have some question as to whether it can do so safely with out a landing zone preperation mission.
I hope the work shops work out but they may be a disappointment to what he does envision for mars.
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Musk started with a vision of mass colonisation similar to the populating of the American wilderness (not really a wilderness - rather a lot of Native Americans lived there!). It was going to be ticket price colonisation.
I should think by now he realises that vision is really not tenable at this stage. But on the other hand he has probably worked out how to commercialise the Mars venture and/or pump billions into it...so he does have a lot of choices now.
The initial model should be energy, exploration plus science - like Antarctica but a lot more interesting! I can't really see what else it would be. Energy of course is the basis for all endeavours on Mars.
But to go with that approach Space X will need to create a super-reliable Spaceport with permanent propellant production facility - that has surely got to be a top priority, which also leads back to water sourcing...there needs to be a secure water supply. It might be done differently from on Earth. It might involve ice mining and ice transport in robot rovers. It will probably need go through a desalination plant and certainly a purification facility. If the regolith is water rich, that might be an alternative source of supply.
So energy generation, water sourcing, propellant production, spaceport (two or three landing/launch pads), lots of science and lots of exploration...followed by food production and a permanent university presence. Do all that and your colony will probably groiw to several hundred quite naturally. That's enough to be going on with...
critics say Musk hasn't paid enough attention to what people will do once they get there
Choices are exploration plus science as a sortie or full mission cycle, Settlement colonization with a slow build up or mars or bust population bloom....
As far as landing the BFR on Mars we do have some question as to whether it can do so safely with out a landing zone preperation mission.
I hope the work shops work out but they may be a disappointment to what he does envision for mars.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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Louis,
Mr. Musk's vision is not impossible, but a substantially greater allocation of resources at a national level would be required to colonize Mars. This is not something one company can achieve, but cooperative technology utilization between multiple interested companies might. If SpaceX, Airbus, Blue Origin, Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Northrop-Grumman, Paragon SDC, Scaled Composites, Sierra Nevada, and ULA all decided that they were going to work with each other (run competitive development programs to produce the best solution, but then cooperate on integration and testing) to run their own exploration and colonization programs, then irrespective of what NASA, ESA, or ROSCOSMOS decided to do, I think they could realistically engage in exploration and colonization campaigns with a reasonable expectation of successful outcomes.
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It's not so much the issue of delivering x number of people to Mars. That is possible. But Musk never seems to address the issues of selection, people management, governance, social and health services, procreation and resource allocation.
If you were to say deliver 100,000 people to Mars over 20 years, how would you select? What would be your selection criteria? Would you screen out those with genetic conditions? Would you screen for intelligence or would you let people with low IQ and little or no education join in? Would you screen out religious fanatics? What is some billionaire was prepared to pay for a religious sect to decamp to Mars in their thousands, would you accept the money? Once people are there how do you deal with those who are homesick and want to return to Earth? (they might be trapped there for a couple of years)? How do you deal with marital breakdown, disputes over child custody? How do you deal with psychological trauma in those who cannot adapt easily? How are you going to govern your colony? Will everyone speak English or will there be a multiplicity of languages? What will people do? How do you deal with people who refuse to work or try to freeload off others in other ways? Are you going to have prisons? What about dealing with people who flout safety regulations?
What about people who decide to procreate and find that their babies have abnormalities owing to foetal development issues in low G...?
These are just a few of the issues...
I think there are all the sorts of issues we grapple with on Earth and there will be a whole lot more that are peculiar to Mars. A sudden influx of permanent colonists is, in my view, a bad idea. A steady build up is a much better idea...so is sorting out the fundamentals of governance and cultural aspiration before you embark on full scale colonisation.
Louis,
Mr. Musk's vision is not impossible, but a substantially greater allocation of resources at a national level would be required to colonize Mars. This is not something one company can achieve, but cooperative technology utilization between multiple interested companies might. If SpaceX, Airbus, Blue Origin, Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Northrop-Grumman, Paragon SDC, Scaled Composites, Sierra Nevada, and ULA all decided that they were going to work with each other (run competitive development programs to produce the best solution, but then cooperate on integration and testing) to run their own exploration and colonization programs, then irrespective of what NASA, ESA, or ROSCOSMOS decided to do, I think they could realistically engage in exploration and colonization campaigns with a reasonable expectation of successful outcomes.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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If you can buy and pay is all that he will care about as the support will still earn money its the science and exploration that has a minimal return..
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Louis,
It's mostly a question of dedication to the cause and the will to adapt and overcome. For those who have never had the experience, that gets beaten into your head in the military on a daily basis. The idea that there are people who are so smart or so special that they can solve all of life's problems on their own has been proven to fail miserably time and time again. We don't send out lone commandos for that very reason. We send teams of dedicated and properly trained men and women who have worked with each other long enough to overcome their personal problems and, hopefully, overcome any additional challenges thrown at them. Even astronauts put their pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else. However, rigorous education and training programs are required for a successful outcome.
The hand wringing over people who don't think the exact same way you do is all for naught. Everyone has their own personal beliefs and valuation systems. Sometimes those systems will be completely unlike your own. I think I would screen out applicants who demonstrate anti-social behavior or are unable to learn, but that's about it. To determine how well people work with each other, you have to put them in an environment that simulates the stresses and problems posed by frontier life. The notion that we'll somehow create utopia or any other version of humanity that doesn't exist in the natural world on Mars is so incredibly naive that nobody who thinks that way should ever be anywhere near the selection process.
As far as human nature is concerned, that's not likely to change so we're going to have to experiment to discover what happens. Want to know how lower gravity affects babies and children? There's only one way to find out. I actually think the idea of sending people there without their family (their support system for dealing with stresses and problems) is an absurdity. If anything, I would say that young people, especially children, are remarkably resilient in dealing with problems. However, they lack the perspective of having the experience they only get after they need it. We really need a cross-section of society to create a new branch of society. I don't think there's any way around that. A bunch of military test pilots are not going to re-create humanity somewhere else. Society is not society without the culture. It takes all kinds.
The difference between Earth and Mars is that you can walk away if you get so upset that you can't deal with other people. It's far more difficult to do that on Mars. Apart from that, there's not enough bodies for any free-loading. Everyone who is not completely disabled has to work. If you break your leg at a construction site, then you need to help your colony in other ways until your leg heals. People who refuse to work, refuse to follow their training or orders, or otherwise become an unbearable burden to the colony are likely to wind up dead, same as they did in past frontier settlements. Since nobody forced anyone to go to Mars, they need to behave in a constructive manner while they're there.
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Not sure if you agree or disagree with me...I don't particularly disagree with anything you write below.
I'm not really arguing full colonisation is impossible, just that it is certainly premature at this stage, and probably for several decades. I am simply pointing to the sorts of issues that will arise. Have pondered this before, I came to the conclusion that there are in fact on planet Earth very few people who (a) have the right stuff (excellent physical and mental health, strong focus and motivation, and good technical skills) and (b) would wish to relocate to Mars permanently, saying goodbye to friends and family forever. It's a binary kind of thing - people who tick (b) are unlikely to tick (a).
A couple of key factors will be (i) Earth-Mars journey time...if you can get that down to 3 months or even 1 month, that will be a game changer, particularly if you can (ii) resolve all the health issues associated with moving to a low G planet. Were those two factors to change then many more people would be prepared to move to Mars on a permanent or semi-permanent basis.
Louis,
It's mostly a question of dedication to the cause and the will to adapt and overcome. For those who have never had the experience, that gets beaten into your head in the military on a daily basis. The idea that there are people who are so smart or so special that they can solve all of life's problems on their own has been proven to fail miserably time and time again. We don't send out lone commandos for that very reason. We send teams of dedicated and properly trained men and women who have worked with each other long enough to overcome their personal problems and, hopefully, overcome any additional challenges thrown at them. Even astronauts put their pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else. However, rigorous education and training programs are required for a successful outcome.
The hand wringing over people who don't think the exact same way you do is all for naught. Everyone has their own personal beliefs and valuation systems. Sometimes those systems will be completely unlike your own. I think I would screen out applicants who demonstrate anti-social behavior or are unable to learn, but that's about it. To determine how well people work with each other, you have to put them in an environment that simulates the stresses and problems posed by frontier life. The notion that we'll somehow create utopia or any other version of humanity that doesn't exist in the natural world on Mars is so incredibly naive that nobody who thinks that way should ever be anywhere near the selection process.
As far as human nature is concerned, that's not likely to change so we're going to have to experiment to discover what happens. Want to know how lower gravity affects babies and children? There's only one way to find out. I actually think the idea of sending people there without their family (their support system for dealing with stresses and problems) is an absurdity. If anything, I would say that young people, especially children, are remarkably resilient in dealing with problems. However, they lack the perspective of having the experience they only get after they need it. We really need a cross-section of society to create a new branch of society. I don't think there's any way around that. A bunch of military test pilots are not going to re-create humanity somewhere else. Society is not society without the culture. It takes all kinds.
The difference between Earth and Mars is that you can walk away if you get so upset that you can't deal with other people. It's far more difficult to do that on Mars. Apart from that, there's not enough bodies for any free-loading. Everyone who is not completely disabled has to work. If you break your leg at a construction site, then you need to help your colony in other ways until your leg heals. People who refuse to work, refuse to follow their training or orders, or otherwise become an unbearable burden to the colony are likely to wind up dead, same as they did in past frontier settlements. Since nobody forced anyone to go to Mars, they need to behave in a constructive manner while they're there.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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Any report backs yet?
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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This was the best I could find...
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-secret … g-on-mars/
"Regardless of the rationale behind the secrecy, it means that non-attendees currently know next to nothing about the event. The most valuable information provided thus far happens to be a list of the groups involved in the workshop. By no means a coincidence, at least four of the groups in attendance are primarily focused on or at least have secondary expertise in mining, drilling, resource extraction, or industrial machinery: Colorado School of Mines, Tesla, Bechtel Corporation (engineering & construction), Caterpillar Inc (heavy machinery design and production), and Schlumberger (oilfield services)."
Well that sounds right to me...there has to be a strong focus on propellant production on the Space X model, which in turn means water and that means drilling, regolith collection, transportation etc. Propellant production and life support have to be the big two things Space X is focussing on. I don't think energy generation is that much of a problem with a 600 tonne plus mission.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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