New Mars Forums

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,818

Re: Liquid water confirmed on Mars

I just talked about this in the last post.  Here it is again: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=NA … M%3DHDRSC3

I have some notions about this.  They say it has to have geothermal energy, and perhaps it will be geothermal energy.  I also suggest electrical currents, perhaps generated by dust storms and other factors.

I do think that it might be some other odd mix of fluids, maybe liquid CO2 and/or water, with salts.  Maybe Hydrogen Peroxide also included.

A mix like that could be liquid at lower temps.

It would be hard to land a probe with the ability to pick up Mars quakes, and impacts, but with Starship or some other on coming capabilities, I would think it could be done.  Perhaps add a small, modified reactor to keep it powered and warm.  Maybe Kilo power?

Perhaps give it the ability to ping like a sonar?

To me that would be a much faster and sooner attainable source of additional data.

I do not understand how the ice movements occur.  If it is like Greenland, and Antarctica, there would be under ice rivers.  But I don't think it possible to have seas to drain into.  Maybe, but I don' t think so.

Could there be aquifers, and even ancient, formed cave systems for water to drain into?  But I don't know if the polar cap gets enough precipitation to feed such a thing.

If the flows are significant then I wonder if some of the ice sheets are formed by flooding, a sort of cryovolcanic activity???

For the North Cap, I don't think that there would be a flow, just static water with ice over it.  Not that there is necessarily any heat for that north cap either.  Again, I don't know.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-04 18:55:01)

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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,818

Re: Liquid water confirmed on Mars

So, this is a bit off topic, unless it is considered for the delivery of probes to the Martian ice caps, or some other difficult but worthy task.

This is about the 2 stage Terran-R and the Impulse lander.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Te … &FORM=VIRE

This collection of stages, 1st, 2nd, and the Impulse lander, seem to work a bit different than Starship.  The entry of the 2nd stage starts like Starship, but then seems to change over to the method of Neutron/(Rocket Lab).  The orbit of the 2nd stage seems to be depicted as being more elliptical than for the LEO of Starship.  This depiction does not involve orbital refilling, I suppose someday Terran-R might have that, to extend its capabilities.

I have read that the science community is becoming excited about the potential of the Starship system.  I am wondering if a version of Starship could host a larger sized space probe like the impulse lander.  There is something to be said for having a 3rd stage for the Starship, which would not be likely to be typically reused or repurposed.  It could be carried to orbit like the impulse, or like Neutron might do.  The potential to refill in orbit might be reserved as a potential for the future.

Of course, what I want is a lander(s) that can land on the polar ice caps or near them, and which would have prolonged life by perhaps including a Kilowatt reactor.  But I understand that landing large devices to even low altitude surfaces is very hard.  All I can say is that a Starship supported mission might have the luxury of lots of mass.  Perhaps it might host retrorockets on steroids, and get away with it?
Perhaps it would not even bother with Parachutes, just an aeroshell, and retrorockets?  That might allow for a more high-altitude landing???

While it is rather romantic to think of having a Starship or Starship mini that could hop around Mars to explore such things, bringing humans with it, I think that for a mission like this that would not be optimal.  Rather, some kind of lander hosted by Starship with robotics and instrumentation might be the more effective way to discover more of about some locations on Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-06 09:20:38)

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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,818

Re: Liquid water confirmed on Mars

More evidence of liquid water on Mars: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … fb2d6&ei=9

So this could suggest that aquifers could be being charged from the south pole of Mars, and just maybe it would be possible to open arteasian wells in Hellas or the Mariner Rift Valley, if you could punch though the permafrost.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-03-02 21:15:40)

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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,818

Re: Liquid water confirmed on Mars

More good news: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … f80a&ei=22
Quote:

China's Mars rover finds signs of 'modern' water
Story by Simon Sharwood • 4h ago

Interesting, but it is getting late.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-30 22:51:58)

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Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Liquid water confirmed on Mars

Water May Have Flowed Intermittently in Martian Valleys for Hundreds of Millions of Years

https://www.psi.edu/blog/water-may-have … -of-years/

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,793

Re: Liquid water confirmed on Mars

Part of the Martian south polar cap appears to be floating on a body of liquid water.
https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/liquid-water-mars

'The similarity between the model-produced topographic undulation and the actual spacecraft observations, together with the earlier ice-penetrating radar evidence suggest that there is an accumulation of liquid water beneath Mars’ south polar ice cap, and that magmatic activity occurred relatively recently in the subsurface of Mars to enable the enhanced geothermal heating needed to keep the water in a liquid state.'

This is obviously an important location for potential astrobiology.  But reaching the water will require a lot of drilling through ice and frozen mud layers.

In terms of being a resource, I think the water is less promissing.  It is a long way from the northern plains where future bases are likely to be located.  And accessing it will require drilling about 2km into the ice sheet.  There are easier options for accessing water on Mars.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-05-27 15:19:37)

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"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,818

Re: Liquid water confirmed on Mars

My first take-away is that if a liquid is responsible for the observations, then this might charge aquifers in the south hemisphere.  I would like to hope that it may be possible to punch a hole in the permafrost in a low area such as Hellas, and to cause an artesian spring to result.

I think that normally any such flow would freeze up and be covered with dust over time.  But human intervention could perhaps maintain a lake, maybe even a sea.

They invoke magma to make the liquid possible.  I however note that a mixture of water and Hydrogen peroxide can be liquid at very low temperatures.

https://brilliant.org/wiki/hydrogen-per … %20%C2%B0C.
Quote:

Hydrogen peroxide and water form a eutectic mixture, exhibiting freezing-point depression; pure water has a melting point of 0 °C and pure hydrogen peroxide of −0.43 °C.
Hydrogen Peroxide (H2o2) | Brilliant Math & Science Wiki
brilliant.org/wiki/hydrogen-peroxide-h2o2/
brilliant.org/wiki/hydrogen-peroxide-h2o2/

Image Quote:

another factor of electrical currents from some processes could be ground currents, which may travel well though salty water, but not so well though permafrost ice and frozen rock.
Dust storm activity may create Hydrogen Peroxide, by an electrical means.

https://phys.org/news/2006-07-mars-stor … uperoxides.
Quote;

The article by Delory and his colleagues appearing in the June issue of Astrobiology demonstrates that the electrical fields generated in storms and smaller tornadoes, called dust devils, could split carbon dioxide and water molecules apart, allowing them to recombine as hydrogen peroxide or more complicated superoxides.
Mars' dust storms may produce peroxide snow - Phys.org
phys.org/news/2006-07-mars-storms-peroxide.html
phys.org/news/2006-07-mars-storms-peroxide.html

So, it could be true.

Another factor of electrical currents from some processes could be ground currents, which may travel well though salty water, but not so well though permafrost ice and frozen rock.  It is my opinion that the flow of electrical currents though melt layers may produce heat underground, under ice.

But whatever reality turns out to be it is interesting to perhaps have a fluid under ice on Mars.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-05-27 17:48:01)

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