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#1 2018-04-18 17:36:18

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,474

Habitat Design on Mars

I thought this was worth highlighting in a separate thread. Some impressively detailed work from the French section of the Mars Society on habitat design:

http://planete-mars.com/martian-habitat … ss-houses/

I think I may have seen some of this elsewhere but maybe not the full article.  As it refers to the MCT rather than BFR,  I take it this is a few years old.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#2 2018-04-18 19:43:26

kbd512
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Re: Habitat Design on Mars

Louis,

Did you notice that that French design mandated the use of a nuclear reactor during the construction phase of the settlement?

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#3 2018-04-18 20:14:30

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 17,855

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

The page has lots of the topics that we are talking about just rolled up in a single document with lots of assumptions that needs lots of stuff before we can turn on the power source to start to do any of this. The processing of insitu page is worth the read just by its self.

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#4 2018-04-19 03:37:00

louis
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From: UK
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Posts: 5,474

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

I didn't actually but this is from a few years back, before Space X made it clear that their mission would be solar powered.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,

Did you notice that that French design mandated the use of a nuclear reactor during the construction phase of the settlement?

Last edited by louis (2018-04-19 03:57:06)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#5 2018-04-19 03:39:50

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,474

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

Indeed - the ISRU flow diagram in section 4 is particularly helpful.

SpaceNut wrote:

The page has lots of the topics that we are talking about just rolled up in a single document with lots of assumptions that needs lots of stuff before we can turn on the power source to start to do any of this. The processing of insitu page is worth the read just by its self.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#6 2018-04-19 16:54:21

SpaceNut
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Re: Habitat Design on Mars

It is usually Viod that questions presurization of any structure that we would build on mars but they would be built to a very high standard of leakage amount as we would want to have minimal loss of the atmosphere the enclosure.

Trending of Overboard Leakage of ISS Cabin Atmosphere

ISS cabin is maintained at a nominal total pressure between 96.5 kPa (14.0 psia) and 102.7 kPa (14.9 psia) and is composed of oxygen, nitrogen, small amounts of CO2 and other trace gases. The nominal total pressure allows for a livable environment similar to the pressures seen on the ground. The current trending results cover data from October 2004 through February 2011. During this time period the ISS leakage rate has increased from ~0.064 kg/day (0.14 lbm/day air) to ~0.227 kg/day (0.50 lbm/day air). Table 2 provides a summary of the leakage by quarter. During this time period the ISS has grown considerably, but closer inspection of 2007 – 2008 timeframe shows that there was an increase of leakage prior to the addition of Node 2 in November 2007 (Figure 3). Node 2 was the first of the module additions in recent years.

 

http://wsn.spaceflight.esa.int/docs/Fac … S%20LR.pdf

We just need to be able to keep up with the loss rate and try to build it better than an ISS module.

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#7 2018-04-19 17:25:37

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,474

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

I would comment that the ISS is not really equipped to automatically replace the lost gases.  But on Mars it would not be at all difficult to live with that sort of loss rate. That's for about six or so people isn't it?  So for 1000 people that would mean you would need to produce 250kgs per day to  make good such a loss, and that is eminently doable.

SpaceNut wrote:

It is usually Viod that questions presurization of any structure that we would build on mars but they would be built to a very high standard of leakage amount as we would want to have minimal loss of the atmosphere the enclosure.

Trending of Overboard Leakage of ISS Cabin Atmosphere

ISS cabin is maintained at a nominal total pressure between 96.5 kPa (14.0 psia) and 102.7 kPa (14.9 psia) and is composed of oxygen, nitrogen, small amounts of CO2 and other trace gases. The nominal total pressure allows for a livable environment similar to the pressures seen on the ground. The current trending results cover data from October 2004 through February 2011. During this time period the ISS leakage rate has increased from ~0.064 kg/day (0.14 lbm/day air) to ~0.227 kg/day (0.50 lbm/day air). Table 2 provides a summary of the leakage by quarter. During this time period the ISS has grown considerably, but closer inspection of 2007 – 2008 timeframe shows that there was an increase of leakage prior to the addition of Node 2 in November 2007 (Figure 3). Node 2 was the first of the module additions in recent years.

 

http://wsn.spaceflight.esa.int/docs/Fac … S%20LR.pdf

We just need to be able to keep up with the loss rate and try to build it better than an ISS module.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#8 2019-03-27 19:45:38

SpaceNut
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Re: Habitat Design on Mars

A Permanent Settlement on Mars

The First Cut in the Land of a New Frontier Master of Architecture Thesis by Georgi Ivanov Petrov

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#9 2019-03-27 20:58:07

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,869

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

For SpaceNut ...

Another terrific find !!! Thanks

The thesis is too long (for me at least) to read in one sitting, but I thought this paragraph was particularly interesting

The need for windows and surface habitation is another important design issue.  Mars has a very thin atmosphere and no magnetic field to protect its surface.  Therefore any structure that will be inhabited by humans will have to be shielded by several meters of regolith.  However, turning the settlers into troglodytes should be avoided.  Living on the surface and having a view outside will have considerable psychological advantage.  If one undertakes the long journey and intends to settle on Mars one should be able to see Mars from the comfort of their home.  This view was advocated by the early cosmonauts' and astronauts' who insisted that windows should be an integral part of any spaceship design.  Submarine sailors also echo the need to look outside - a privilege that is called ‘periscope liberty’ [Haines 1991].  Finally windows were a high priority in the new building for the Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station, which will have a big advantage over the original windowles

Advances in LED display technology, and also in Virtual Reality systems, may help to provide a psychological feeling of being able to "see" outside.

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

A Permanent Settlement on Mars

The First Cut in the Land of a New Frontier Master of Architecture Thesis by Georgi Ivanov Petrov

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#10 2019-03-28 18:53:26

SpaceNut
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Posts: 17,855

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

As far as under ground the several meters is not what I would want either nor even a wall thickness as well. Since water and lead glass and a few other tricks can get us to that same degree of protection without all the dirt piled up on top of us.

Design of a Human Settlement on Mars Using InSitu Resources

Using augmented displays from outside cameras would be the norm for underground homes.

Nasa does do lots of funding for work to be performed in aspects of R&D for lots of things nasa-awards-ai-spacefactory-for-marsha-a-3d-printed-vertical-martian-habitat-1.jpg

yes we have seen this but what its made from is a "mixture of basalt fiber extracted from Martian rock and renewable bioplastic (polylactic acid, or PLA) processed from plants grown on Mars. Basalt fiber is known for its superb tensile strength and it's comparable to carbon fiber and kevlar yet much simpler to produce."

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#11 2019-03-28 20:32:26

RobertDyck
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Re: Habitat Design on Mars

SpaceNut wrote:

As far as under ground the several meters is not what I would want either nor even a wall thickness as well.

Why not? It works. Simple, reliable means to protect against radiation. Also protects against meteorites. Steel reinforced concrete is very strong, a ceiling of that can hold the dirt. The idea we cam up with for Mars Homestead Phase 1 was to cut into a hillside, build the pressure shell, then bury it by push dirt down from the hill. To make the first permanent base simple, the idea was to use brick with groin arches. That's ancient Roman technology. But I'm suggesting something a little more modern: concrete. Either way you'll need a sealant on the inside of the bricks or concrete. But if you want to see outside, buildings today have opaque roofs, windows in walls. Bricks of Mars Homestead used overburden of the dirt to counter air pressure inside the brick structure. One issue was anything close to the edge of the hill could "blow out" due to lack of horizontal counter pressure. So modules close to the hill edge had to be made of something other than brick; options: aluminum, steel, fibreglass. We settled on fibreglass. However, the fibreglass modules would still require dirt for radiation shielding. The proposed solution was non-pressurized brick structure, with fibreglass inside. For easy inspection of the brick, they chose a gap between brick wall and fibreglass. I'm saying if you used reinforced concrete, you could build right to the door. And bedrooms/apartments could have a window. A horizontal awning would provide shade; the awning would be reinforced concrete with dirt piled on top, so the "shade" would provide radiation protection. The window could be two panes with mineral oil between, like windows of a 1950s radiation cell. Mineral oil as clear as water provides much better protection against heavy and medium ion radiation than lead. So yes, you can have a floor-to-ceiling window for your apartment.

normal_MHP-4FC-Image014.jpg
normal_MHP-4FC-Image026.jpg

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#12 2019-03-28 20:44:37

RobertDyck
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Re: Habitat Design on Mars

I notice Georgi's master thesis has a few changes from what he provided to us. For example, I argued for all greenhouses to be clear to use ambient light. Yes, they would require artificial light during a dust storm, but only then. A couple others on the team were worried of radiation exposure to plants. I recommended PCTFE film for a Mars Direct habitat, but the hillside settlement would you insitu resources. The best insitu material for greenhouse windows is glass, just simple glass. Tempered glass so dust storms won't scratch/craze it, but that's all. Tempered glass with a spectrally selective coating of gold, nickel, and silver-oxide will block 99% of UV while letting 85% of visible light through. That metallized glass will block 100% of beta radiation, 100% of alpha, the majority of what little X-rays exist in space, and Mars atmosphere will block 98% of heavy ion GCR if you build at a low altitude location such as Elysium Planetia. Remaining radiation is low enough that plants can easily deal with it. Plants are more radiation hardy than humans or any mammal. The compromise was 1/2 transparent greenhouses, 1/2 buried; but I notice Georgi's master thesis has all transparent.

His thesis also includes a theatre not includes in what he presented to us.

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#13 2019-03-28 21:08:47

SpaceNut
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Re: Habitat Design on Mars

First problem with concrete wall baring is the pad which is also reenforced by rebarb. We can not even cut into a rock let alone a mountain side. We will have limited power until we have nuclear plants. All needed in a future state to build in this manner.

https://sciencing.com/calculate-concret … 78283.html
https://wisconsinlandwater.org/files/mi … _OShea.pdf
https://www.hunker.com/12001375/how-to- … f-concrete
https://www.hunker.com/13401318/how-thi … -up-weight

Mars concrete will not be as strong as that of earth as its make up will be different.

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#14 2019-03-28 21:41:28

RobertDyck
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Re: Habitat Design on Mars

SpaceNut wrote:

Mars concrete will not be as strong as that of earth as its make up will be different.

Wikipedia: Portland cement
The correct process to produce Portland Cement is to select rock that has the correct balance of elements needed. Baking in a kiln will break down mineral compounds into simple oxides, so it doesn't matter what rock minerals you start with, as long as the balance of elements is correct. That means makeup will be the same; only difference will be temperature and atmosphere when setting.

Typical constituents of Portland clinker plus gypsum
Tricalcium silicate (CaO)3 · SiO2 - 45–75%
Dicalcium silicate (CaO)2 · SiO2 - 7–32%
Tricalcium aluminate (CaO)3 · Al2O3 - 0–13%
Tetracalcium aluminoferrite (CaO)4 · Al2O3 · Fe2O3 - 0–18%
Gypsum CaSO4 · 2 H2O - 2–10%

Typical constituents of Portland cement
Calcium oxide, CaO - 61–67%
Silicon dioxide, SiO2 - 19–23%
Aluminium oxide, Al2O3 - 2.5–6%
Ferric oxide, Fe2O3 - 0–6%
Sulfur (VI) oxide, SO3 - 1.5–4.5%

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#15 2019-03-29 03:53:59

elderflower
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Posts: 1,169

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

Rotary kilns are going to be few and far between on Mars, for a long time. They don't come in small mass units. The Romans made an hydraulic cement which has stood the test of time, using volcanic minerals. Mars is not short of volcanos and these should be investigated for suitable deposits.

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#16 2019-03-29 18:28:19

SpaceNut
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Posts: 17,855

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

Non earth baring mass for buildings have concrete wall that like this https://www.hunker.com/12615548/what-is … -thickness

In general, poured concrete basement walls that are 8 feet tall or less and have no more than 7 feet of soil pressing against them from the outside function well at a thickness of 8 inches. When a taller wall or a higher level of soil or both come into play, the thickness should increase to 10 inches. These figures can vary due to differences in local building codes.

Which means the walls are even thicker to be able to widthstand the mass bearing down on the shell.

https://marshield.com/thickness-chart/
Sheet Lead Thickness Chart

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi … 012456.pdf
Radiation Shielding Optimization on Mars

The regolith thickness traversed by any ray extending down into the surface is set to 300 g/cm2. The regolith composition is a global average containing 51.2% SiO2, 9.3% Fe2O3, and 7.4% H2O with the remaining 32.1% comprised mainly of elements between oxygen and calcium. It should be noted that the small amount of water included in the composition corresponds to a hydrogen mass fraction of < 1%. The majority of the regolith composition is given by 47% oxygen and 24% silicon.

http://www.canadametal.com/wp-content/u … elding.pdf
A guide to the use of lead for radiation shielding

https://www.universetoday.com/140217/pl … shielding/

A NASA study found that a large space station or habitat required a shielding of 4 t/m2 of martian regolith (considering that its density is between 1,000 kg/m3 at the surface to 2,000 kg/m3 at a depth of a few cm, this corresponds to a thickness of 2 m, or less if the material is compacted [by being] sintered by lasers), to achieve an effective dose rate  of 2.5 mSv/y…

https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/716082main_Thi … ection.pdf
Radiation Shielding Materials Containing Hydrogen, Boron, and Nitrogen: Systematic Computational and Experimental Study - Phase I

http://old.marssociety.org.au/amec2007/ … n_etal.PDF
Deployable Interlocking Structures for Martian Bases

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#17 2019-03-30 01:06:22

RobertDyck
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Re: Habitat Design on Mars

elderflower wrote:

Rotary kilns are going to be few and far between on Mars, for a long time. They don't come in small mass units. The Romans made an hydraulic cement which has stood the test of time, using volcanic minerals. Mars is not short of volcanos and these should be investigated for suitable deposits.

Ok. Roman concrete was not as strong as Portland Cement, but as you point out, easier to make. Would certainly make good mortar for a brick wall or arch. Roman cement was 1 part lime to 3 parts pozzolana (volcanic ash) for buildings, and 1:2 lime to pozzolana for underwater work. However, this requires quicklime. That's produced by baking limestone or seashells that contain calcite in a kiln. So you still need a kiln. Limestone is normally a blend of calcite (CaCO3) and dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2). Although the goal for quicklime is calcium oxide (CaO), some magnesium is Ok. Both calcite and dolomite exist in standard Mars surface material. How do we separate calcite or both calcite and dolomite from Mars dirt?

So a lime kiln is still required. It must operate above 825°C, it could work at 900°C but normally operates at 1,000°C to make the reaction proceed quickly. A rotary kiln for cement has different temperatures, entrance is 70 to 110°C, while final segment before exit is 1300 to 1450°C. So a lime kiln operates a little cooler, but still quite hot.

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#18 2019-03-31 03:47:24

elderflower
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Re: Habitat Design on Mars

Lime kilns are much easier to make and can be run on a batch basis and at smaller sizes than kilns for cement clinker, and they don't use as much energy.
The great dome of the Pantheon is made from unreinforced Roman concrete and it has stood for nearly 2000 yrs.

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#19 2019-03-31 17:13:42

GW Johnson
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Posts: 3,767
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Re: Habitat Design on Mars

I've got articles posted over at "exrocketman" that describe mushroom-shaped aboveground Mars houses,  and "icecrete" for non-exposed application (otherwise it would sublime). 

The icecrete could be the deep foundation for the mushroom-shaped Mars house,  whose flat,  overhanging roof is covered with a regolith radiation shield.  Same foundation (ice) is the seal stopping gas from percolating through the regolith out of the building.

The stalk in the center is a hollow masonry tower holding up the roof,  whether air pressure acts or not.  The roof weight must exceed the max pressure times area product,  so it will inherently be thick enough to be a radiation shield.  The tower can be rocks cemented together,  or it could be cast concrete,  or both.  It's only a compression member.

Around the periphery,  you put triple-layer transparency panels held by columns from foundation to overhanging roof.  Any sort of mirror field outside can concentrate lots of sun in through that transparent ringwall.  Otherwise,  you have a fantastic view outside (to help stay sane). 

All we need is a way to make concrete from local materials that will set in extreme cold,  and a source of ice-for-water to make icecrete foundations,  plus rebar from Earth,  and whatever panels we need to build forms.   And a rechargeable electric bulldozer or front-end loader. And some stick welders.  And beaucoup electric power available no matter what.  Which means nuke. 

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-03-31 17:16:32)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#20 2019-04-02 10:28:58

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 1,869

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

Title: nasa-3d-printed-habitat-challenge

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/nasa- … index.html

NASA has taken another step to make interplanetary living a reality, naming the top three finalists for its ongoing 3D-Printed Habitat Challenge last Thursday.

(th)

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#21 2019-04-02 18:34:15

SpaceNut
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Posts: 17,855

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

Icecrete was one of those open concept research colaboration that several of us participated in. For the floor use aerogel to insulate the ice from the internal temperatures with additional layers of inside insulations to further isolate the temperatures from the blocks of Icecrete.

Found the link on GW site was surprised just how long ago that was march of 2012, it seems like yesterday.

http://exrocketman.blogspot.com/2012/03 … -good.html

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#22 2019-04-02 19:10:52

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,194

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

Why not just mix in some Sulfur to make Sulfacrete?

It's already stronger than most types of rebar reinforced concrete.

We can also make seriously strong concrete with CNT (from Martian CO2) and Sulfur.

Did I mention that no water or steel is required?

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#23 2019-04-02 20:23:41

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,855

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

Found our topic Mars Colony Cement & Concrete

Material Choices for Mars

Sealing the sulfur is an issue for mars habitat use.
We do have a brick topic, will add in later.

Its later

No bake Mars bricks

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#24 2019-04-02 20:42:10

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 3,194

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

Why couldn't we use CNT fabric composite to seal the structure?

1. Form the habitat over a steel mold.
2. Extrude sulfacrete in layers and use a laser to sinter the material, sort of like 3D printing over a mold.
3. Remove the steel mold.
4. Sand the interior smooth to remove any sharp Sulfacrete protrusions.
5. Use compressed CO2 and abrasive media (bits of Sulfacrete) to texturize the surface of the interior.
6. Use more compressed CO2 to remove the media and dust.
7. Apply a resin to the interior surface of the concrete structure.
8. Apply layers of CNT fabric to the resin.
9. Use a balloon inflated with hot CO2 inside the structure to apply heat and pressure to cure the resin.

Now you have an air-tight composite structure made from local materials that uses interior atmospheric pressure to help reinforce the walls, presuming that they're thick enough to stop incoming radiation, which they'll pretty much have to be if the structure is built above ground.

Alternatively, we could pre-fab a CNT fabric inflatable and stick it inside the concrete radiation shield.  However, then we need more layers of fabric, restraint layers, and gas bladders.

Either way, so long as the structures are very curvy inside, this should work.

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#25 2019-04-02 20:50:45

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 17,855

Re: Habitat Design on Mars

Could always strip the BNNT fabric from anything that is not using it to go home to earth in for layers within the sulfurcrete composite dome construction to reduce the mass of the structure walls.

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