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#1 2018-03-24 00:08:13

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

The European Space Agency’s New Ion Thruster “Breathes” Air

Typically I suspect that the Europeans and Italians are to be regarded as faulted.  And yet time after time I see the merits of collaboration with them.  It is just truly real.  Some things the USA/North Americans do well, but some things apparently only get build by these other peoples.

One has to reconsider their biased opinions under these circumstances.

I have always wanted something like this under my Christmas tree:
https://futurism.com/esa-ion-thruster-breathes-air/
Quote:

Researchers just test-fired a new type of ion thruster that “breathes” air, and one day, it could help humanity reach Mars and beyond.
Better propulsion systems are key to advancing our space capabilities, and one of the most promising kinds is ion propulsion. An ion thruster “ionizes” a propellant, most commonly xenon, by either adding electrons to it or taking electrons away. This creates thrust that can position a satellite or propel spacecraft, for example.
Ion thrusters are much cleaner, safer, and more fuel-efficient than standard rocket engines. However, they are still limited by the amount of propellant their craft can carry.

Scientists at the European Space Agency (ESA), Polish company QuinteScience, and Italian space company SITAEL hope to change that. The team has successfully tested an ion thruster that utilizes a method known as air-breathing electric propulsion (ABEP), or RAM electrical propulsion. That means it quite literally runs on air.

Image Credit: ESA
While ABEP is not a new concept, the ESA’s prototype is the first of its kind. It works by sucking in air molecules from the top of Earth’s atmosphere. Then, it gives those molecules an electric charge and accelerates them. Finally, it ejects the ionized molecules back out into space. This ejection of ions is what causes thrust.
After running a number of successful computer simulations, the team decided it was time to test their thruster in the physical world.
The group set up a vacuum chamber at the SITAEL’s test facility in Italy to replicate conditions 200 kilometers (124 miles) above Earth’s surface. Through a series of tests, they proved they could ignite the system using solely an atmospheric mix of nitrogen and oxygen.

“This result means air-breathing electric propulsion is no longer simply a theory but a tangible, working concept, ready to be developed, to serve one day as the basis of a new class of missions,” Louis Walpot, an ESA aerospace engineer, said in a statement.
Slow and Steady
This “air-breathing” thruster may not be as powerful as some other ion thrusters in development, including NASA’s X3, but what it lacks in power, it makes up for in potential longevity.
Because they can pull fuel from the air, these ion thrusters could expand our reach into space. A craft could travel from one atmosphere to the next, “refueling” at each before continuing on its journey. Instead of causing drag, air would become a fuel source.
Of course, any long-distance trips would still take a long time, but at least we’d have the ability to eventually reach objects much farther away.

A hypothetical design of a craft using the ESA’s air-breathing ion propulsion system. Image Credit: ESA
Besides supporting future long-distance missions, these air-powered thrusters could be superior alternatives to the thrusters that currently help satellites maintain their positioning. Those systems eventually run out of propellant and can no longer function, as was the case with the ESA’s Gravity field and steady-state Ocean Circulation Explorer (GOCE) satellite.
The ESA’s ion thruster could also cut down on the weight of spacecraft, which is a constant limiting factor for launches. The GOCE satellite, for example, carried 40 kilograms (88 pounds) of xenon for propellant. Getting rid of this weight could be a significant benefit to using these thrusters.
While it isn’t the most powerful propulsion system, the ESA’s new ion thruster design has clear advantages over older designs. Eventually, it could become the propulsion system of choice for spacecraft engineers.

So, while it must start humble, could we hope someday to collect molecules in very high Earth orbit, to fill tanks?  I am starting to think it might happen eventually.

If so, then that will change interplanetary travel in my opinion.

I have wanted this for so long.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-03-24 00:12:13)


Done.

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#2 2018-03-24 10:35:31

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 5,423
Website

Re: The European Space Agency’s New Ion Thruster “Breathes” Air

Interesting technology,  indeed!  This is perfect for re-boosting items that suffer orbital decay.  Only works in free-molecule slip flow at low orbital altitudes,  apparently.  Gotta have some "air",  so not deep-space propulsion,  though.

I don't think I'd extrapolate from this to filling ion propulsion tanks while in orbit,  though.  Look at the required pressure ratio:  from something like 10^-9+ bar up to something nearer 1 bar:  10^9+ to 1.  That simply isn't anything at all practical in terms of what we know how to do. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#3 2018-03-24 13:00:17

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: The European Space Agency’s New Ion Thruster “Breathes” Air

Very pleased with your reply, as it automatically answered a question for me that needed the touch you often provide of showing the real limits.

I am very pleased for you that you have remediation from your medical issue.  I had a lesser event, and I have some understanding of pain and the loss of capability.  You must be very happy now. smile
......
But now, please tollerate my peter pan optimism if you can for a bit.  I am thinking of the Moon and it's Oxygen.
For billions of years, the materials of the Moon have been moving to higher and higher orbits in the Earths gravity well, by tidal action, or so we are told.

So, maybe you can help me escape using too much pixie dust, and at least get one of my feet on the ground.  Do I interpret the engine the Europeans built as able to process Oxygen and Nitrogen, at least in a test correctly?

So, pretty much obvious.  I would like to see high temperature solar cells built on the Moon, and some of the Oxygen from the materials they are built from being exported as LOX.  In another location, SpaceNut seems to think that these high temperature solar cells might be built on the Moon.

So, if I understand the ion engine, it could use Moon Oxygen for propulsion.
......
More Pixie Dust:
I don't know if a pelatized Oxygen mass driver can work, or if it would have superior preformance to the European Ion engine.  But I want to explore that.

I had previously imagined LOX being squirted out of a mass driver.  Have since realized that it would encounter a lot of friction and/or damage, if the LOX impinged on the magnetic levitation device.

So then that leaves three other phases.  Gas and Plasma are covered by the European engine.
Solid pellets would be covered by the Oxygen Mass Driver.

So, I am imagining, the creation of a solid Oxygen pellet from liquid Oxygen by decompression to a relative vacuum.  The Oxygen vaporizing off and being used either for people to breath, or if there is an excess, being consumed by the European Ion Rocket.
The pellets being shot out of a electromagnetic mass driver, presuming that Oxygen being paramagnetic indicates that this is possible.
I presume that a supply of Liquid Hydrogen has been brought along, but it's use would be to help the producetion of superconductor magnets, and as it vaporized to be combined with Oxygen to produce water for the crew.  The supply of Hydrogen would be relativly small relative to the supply of Oxygen brought along.

Some Hydrogen and Oxygen might be used in tiny thrusters which might help manipulate the spacecraft when quick accurate reactions are helpful.
......
So here if the above is not too pixie dust then I hope to claim some advantages for the system.
1) If the propulsion systems fail, then the crew has possibly a great deal of consumables per Oxygen and Water, to either self rescue or be externally rescued by the actions of others.

2) The source of Oxygen and Hydrogen would both potentially be the Moon (In the Earth/Moon system), high up in the Earth's gravity well.

3) Depleating the Moons Hydrogen much more slowly than if you only used combustion thrust.

4) In the process to generate useful devices on the Moon such as high temperature solar cells, and perhaps fibers for "Fiberglass" structures.
.....
More pixie dust, perhaps too much.
I have not been much of a fan of terraforming the Moon, but Jeff Bezos has mentioned it, if I understood him correctly.

What of this (Centuries in the future):
You use magnetic fields to help retain an Oxygen atmosphere that was created for the Moon.  Something like has been proposed for Mars, by presumably more capable people than me.  It does not have to be dense, just enough at minimum to take care of micro-metrorites, and to allow a spaceship to do an aeroburn.

Some people would be dissapointed in this as they think the Vacuum of the Moon is an asset.

However, I can imagine building gigantic vacuum chambers on the Moon, and producing inside of them a much more useful vacuum than the Moon can provide.  As long as the air pressure on the Moon was very small such gigantic chambers should not be a problem to create.
......
Probabbly from what you have previously said, way too much pixie dust.
And you can run the European Ion Engine at it's upper limits.   Just maybe even able to "Harvest" Oxygen from that atmosphere, as the Moons gravity field is less.

I am guessing the big problem is inertia of the Oxygen.

Last edited by Void (2018-03-24 13:01:50)


Done.

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#4 2018-03-24 13:57:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: The European Space Agency’s New Ion Thruster “Breathes” Air

We have actually talked about Atmospheric Scooping as a topic and I am sure lots more places....

Pretty much if you need to boost right away and can not wait for the collection process over time then its not really going to be all that useful.

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#5 2018-03-24 14:49:03

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: The European Space Agency’s New Ion Thruster “Breathes” Air

A decent point.  I actually am conservative about it.  After all, should you get consumables from the upper Earth atmosphere, you still have the task of getting higher up into the Earths gravity well.  Well someday 50-100 years from now maybe champion.  Now, just a new method to experiment with.  But if you can process Oxygen in an Ion drive, and can get Oxygen from various sources high in gravity wells, perhaps you have something.  Say Oxygen from the Moon.  smile   Might have gotcha back SpaceNut.

Such Oxygen you don't even have to scoop at massively high speeds from an upper atmosphere.  Seems it might be an easier situation.

Last edited by Void (2018-03-24 14:50:02)


Done.

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#6 2018-03-24 23:31:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: The European Space Agency’s New Ion Thruster “Breathes” Air

Can we consider the word Quisling?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quisling

Some people here are under suspicion by me at least.  It seems that whenever they can they interfere with progress, and divert to wrong methods.  Suspicion.  Not a verdict.


I don't like having my nose rubbed in excrement.  Not in public, not at all.

I don't think I appreciate the limiting and cowardly reply(s) I got.

https://www.space.com/40056-air-breathi … -test.html

Don't like my comments?  Too bad.  It has happened all too often.

I think this web site is designed to inhibit human space exploration.  They "The Planetary Society" don't want our germs out there.

But really I think that is an excuse.  They want to hold us as captives.

Paranoid?  smile  Well, it's just that I keep seeing a pattern, and I am well equipped to recognize patterns.

What do you think?  Well perhaps I don't care.

I can function perfectly well in society.  I worked for a research center for more than 30 years.  Not a high position, but I learned enough.  I know that strong and intelligent people don't behave the way that I see here.  Too bad you mess with dreams, try to cripple them.

Nasty night huh?  You sure deserve it.

Last edited by Void (2018-03-24 23:35:47)


Done.

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#7 2018-03-25 10:35:09

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: The European Space Agency’s New Ion Thruster “Breathes” Air

Viod I multitask all the day long everyday to which my replies are short and not lengthy as that requires a longer period of time to devote to the conversation. I try to add what I remember from past discussion here on newmars and later add in research links to help all with the furthering of the topics discussions. Not everyone likes to comment on every topic or to consider that they might be a subject matter expert on the topic and that I am not.

As to using a gas no matter what the origin or type might be can and will be used for ion thrusters, but those that man needs to breath will be last on that list to make use of.

Now off to do the weekly trash run of course pay by bag for the home since the town does not offer pick up and to have others take it away is costly to one that is barely above poverty level.

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#8 2018-03-25 13:02:07

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,750

Re: The European Space Agency’s New Ion Thruster “Breathes” Air

Void wrote:

Can we consider the word Quisling?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quisling

Some people here are under suspicion by me at least.  It seems that whenever they can they interfere with progress, and divert to wrong methods.  Suspicion.  Not a verdict.

Actually thats not it. Mars is not Earth and as much as we would want Mars is at a deficet before we go. So any process for mars, materials, energy useages all must be thought out for the changes in condition that Mars present. That does not say we can not have Earth on Mars only that it will come at a cost and be different.

GW Johnson wrote:

Actually,  that's true of all supplies.  “What you cannot make,  you take (with you)”.  That's why the 1950's Mars mission proposals had such large vehicles:  they were planning on taking everything,  100%.  If all else fails,  you can always do that.  You just get to accomplish your mission with fewer flights of smaller vehicles (at lower budget),  if you can make more of your supplies in situ while you are there.

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#9 2018-03-25 16:42:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: The European Space Agency’s New Ion Thruster “Breathes” Air

Thank You for your effort to make repairs.  I guess, I got a behavior problem.  Time for me to take a breather I think.

The technology which I was interested in is new, and there are no guarantees that it will pan out.

However as the Moon apparently is 43% Oxygen??? Any propulsion system which can use Oxygen has got to be of a massive interest, if it proves practical.

Ion Drive,

Mass Driver.

https://www.space.com/55-earths-moon-fo … orbit.html
Quote:

The average composition of the lunar surface by weight is roughly 43 percent oxygen, 20 percent silicon, 19 percent magnesium, 10 percent iron, 3 percent calcium, 3 percent aluminum, 0.42 percent chromium, 0.18 percent titanium and 0.12 percent manganese.

I wish to conserve the Hydrogen, but don't dispute it's use when needed. 

So prefer to avoid combustion methods.

Oxygen in a high temperature nuclear reaction seems not practical due to corrosion likelihood.

So perhaps solar electric, or maybe even nuclear electric, but the Oxygen alone as the expelled mass, since it is so plentiful, and I presume that even if you are tossing out pellets of solid Oxygen, the sunlight will evaporate it quite quickly, in the inner solar system so you would not create long lasting collision hazards.

But I am not coping well.  Time for a breather of some substantial extent.

Thanks for the reply(s).


Done.

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#10 2021-09-08 05:00:57

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,893

Re: The European Space Agency’s New Ion Thruster “Breathes” Air

Here's another more recent bit from a website 'the world-first EP air-breathing engine, potentially shifting the paradigm of VLEO, LEO and planetary missions.'
https://www.vki.ac.be/index.php/researc … c-thruster
They calim this tech will open up new areas of exploration

Member States  involved in 'Aether': Italy, Belgium, United Kingdom, Greece, Germany, Austria.

There also seems to be a project with European Space Agency (ESA), Polish company QuinteScience, and Italian space company SITAEL

Different types of Ion Thrusters or Ion Drives, some get power by way of solar other nuclear and they have set a number of world records for long duration operation, they might be slow to start but they go very fast. Chemical rockets burn quick and run out but the Ion the fuel is near limitless allowing acceleration for a very long time they have reached record speeds, they support satellites and stations, as well as the recovery


As for the Red Planet,
testing the parachute for its new Mars rover
https://www.digitaltrends.com/news/esa- … hute-test/

Continue using Nuclear power
https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Arti … bute-to-sp
European and US nuclear companies contribute to space work

more robotic projects coming from students?
https://twitter.com/rover_challenge/sta … 8533318656
"How can participating in the European Rover Challenge help your career as a student?"

Gravity centrifuge experiments, capable of simulating gravity that is 20 times stronger
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/innovat … y-students
ESA and UN offer students chance to conduct hypergravity experiments

and Traditional rockets

ESA Council Agrees Resolution on Ariane 6 and Vega-C Exploitation and Future Space Transportation
https://www.asdnews.com/news/aerospace/ … sportation

Online

#11 2021-09-08 10:39:56

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 6,976

Re: The European Space Agency’s New Ion Thruster “Breathes” Air

I am interested in your post, the other items matter, but I will address the
"Air Breathing Upper Atmophsere Engine", and will add items that I think may
be useful to associate with it.

Possible things to throw into the mix.

1) Atmospheric Mining: (I will not intend that the engine by itself can do that)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_mining
-The hope of collecting atmosphric molecules, to put into orbital Depots.

2) Because of #1, Propellant/Chemical Depots.  I would think O2, N2, Argon mostly.

3) Tethers, both for catching loads and for propulsion.

4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tether
Quote:

Space tether
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search

Artist's conception of satellite with a tether
Space tethers are long cables which can be used for propulsion, momentum exchange, stabilization and attitude control, or maintaining the relative positions of the components of a large dispersed satellite/spacecraft sensor system.[1] Depending on the mission objectives and altitude, spaceflight using this form of spacecraft propulsion is theorized to be significantly less expensive than spaceflight using rocket engines.

Quotes:

Skyhook
Main article: Skyhook (structure)

A rotating and a tidally stabilised skyhook in orbit
A skyhook is a theoretical class of orbiting tether propulsion intended to lift payloads to high altitudes and speeds.[14][15][16][17][18] Proposals for skyhooks include designs that employ tethers spinning at hypersonic speed for catching high speed payloads or high altitude aircraft and placing them in orbit.[19]

Electrodynamics

Medium close-up view, captured with a 70 mm camera, shows Tethered Satellite System deployment.
Main article: Electrodynamic tether
Electrodynamic tethers are long conducting wires, such as one deployed from a tether satellite, which can operate on electromagnetic principles as generators, by converting their kinetic energy to electrical energy, or as motors, converting electrical energy to kinetic energy.[1] Electric potential is generated across a conductive tether by its motion through the earth's magnetic field. The choice of the metal conductor to be used in an electrodynamic tether is determined by a variety of factors. Primary factors usually include high electrical conductivity and low density. Secondary factors, depending on the application, include cost, strength, and melting point.

An electrodynamic tether was profiled in the documentary film Orphans of Apollo as technology that was to be used to keep the Russian space station Mir in orbit.[20][21]

5) Orbital Solar Power:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power

6) Space Rectenna's in orbit, not on the ground.  Beamed power will not pass through thick atmosphere.

7) Air braking means.

Some or all of these devices may be working together with the European thruster(s).

------
From the previous post by a member: Mars_B4_Moon
As for the European device:
https://www.vki.ac.be/index.php/researc … c-thruster

I expect that their device includes
-Electric power, likely from solar.
-An air intake.
-A thruster that accelerated that input air and outputs it to thrust.

So starting with the electric source, that could be very large solar panels, high
enough in orbit to minimize atmospheric drag.  An alternative would be to have the solar panels up high and have a rectenna closer to the intake and thrusters.

The electric power can be delivered to the intake with tethers.  Some of those
tethers can generate thrust, or conversely if desired electricity.  Most like thrust
and mechanical attachment being the desired use.

A little bit more about the use of a rectenna.  It would only make sense, if the
device had less drag than solar panels.  Since the beam would not pass through
substantial atmosphere, I anticipate better efficiency.  As for danger to the public?
Either switch it off when over critical areas, or maybe it can have a frequency that
will not pass through atmosphere very well.

------

Needed items to discover more about:
-Is the use of the thruster desired?  We think that tethers can pull mass up in orbit
if supplied with electric power.
-How to collect atmospheric gasses?
From the collector, then converted to compressed or liquid form, and then lofted higher with a tether?  Or can some tethers lift up Ions, towards points in the collective structure, and then can those Ions be converted to compressed or liquid
gasses?

-It may be possible that this assembly could catch sub-orbital devices and lift them up.

----

Harm to Earth?  Well you don't want the thing to crash or contribute to a Kessler
Syndrome.

How about taking atmosphere, is that a problem?  We part of the Earth heating
up is because the sun is getting warmer as a long trend.  Removing a part of the
atmosphere, could be used to keep the Earth habitable for longer than 1/2 Billion
years.  And I anticipate that the amount taken will be "A drop in the bucket".

-----
Imagine filling starships with Oxygen.  That is ~79% of the propellant weight.
Imagine filling the Landing tank so that it can land.

Every time a Starship launches it has to carry the landing Oxygen, and also it's assent Oxygen, and if it is a tanker it has to carry Oxygen as a delivered material.

As for Fuels, with this it may be possible to get them from somewhere else, Moon,
NEO's......

But if all else fails fuels from Earth.

Done

Last edited by Void (2021-09-08 11:00:15)


Done.

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