New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#1 2018-03-15 18:43:12

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Imagining the First Mars Colony

I think the Antarctic bases (in particular the largest - McMurdo Station) are our best reference point for the first Mars Colony.

Here are some details about McMurdo station, which has a summer population of over 1000 and a winter population of around 250. 

From Wikipedia:


"Today, McMurdo Station is Antarctica's largest community and a functional, modern-day science station, which includes a harbor, three airfields[8] (two seasonal), a heliport and more than 100 buildings, including the Albert P. Crary Science and Engineering Center. The station is also home to the continent's two ATMs, both provided by Wells Fargo Bank. The primary focus of the work done at McMurdo Station is science, but most of the residents are not scientists, but station personnel who are there to provide support for operations, logistics, information technology, construction, and maintenance."

"More than 85 buildings with facilities that include:[1]

    A harbor
    Landing strips
    Helicopter pad
    Repair facilities
    Dormitories
    Administrative buildings
    Firehouse
    Power plant
    Water distillation plant
    Wharf
    Stores
    Clubs
    Warehouses
    Crary Lab
    Above-ground water, sewer, telephone, and power lines
    Chapel of the Snows Interfaith Chapel
    Albert P. Crary Science and Engineering Center (aeronomy and astrophysics, biology and medicine, geology and geophysics, glaciology and glacial geology, and ocean and climate systems)."

How might a Mars colony of 1000 look? 

Spaceport where the BFRs land and where rocket hoppers take off to explore the planet.
Spaceport reception facility (where newcomers are given a full health check)
Photovoltaic power facility.
Battery storage facility
Methane production and storage facility
Rocket propellant production and storage facility
Administrative Centre (General Director and various public officials covering such areas as: Health and Hygiene, Mining and Supplies, Industrial Production, Agriculture and Food, Scientific Programme)
Space X Offices
Science Centre (geology, geophysics, glaciology, biology if relevant, medicine)
Mars University Institute (a post grad study and research facility funded and overseen by a consortium of Universities including Harvard, MIT, Cambridge UK, and Bologna).
Health Centre (general practice, surgery, A&E, pharmacy)
3 Warehouses
Distribution and Retail Centre (for free distribution of various items e.g. basic clothing, hygiene products and also sale of luxury items)
Agricultural Centre x 5  (producing about 80% of the colony's needs or about 1200 kgs of food items per sol).
Food Processing and Packaging Hab
Transport and Mining Hub (storage and maintenance of 20 small Rovers and 10 large Rovers used in exploration, plus other mining machines)
Exploration Centre (centre for exploration planning and co-ordination)
Life Support Facility x 5 (producing oxygen/air mix and clean water, monitoring pressurisation of habs, maintaining hygiene, and dealing with human waste/waste water, venting of gases etc) 
Space Agency HQs (NASA, ESA, ISA)
Industrial Resources Centre (sited well away from main habitation - storage of industrial materials such as gases, metal ores, mineral  etc)
Industrial Production and Design Centre (organised into several divisions dealing with: electrical equipment e.g. electric motors; plastics; steel production; 3D printing; general manufacturing; PV panel production; rover vehicle production; construction materials)
Emergency Services Centre (fire, life support emergencies, meteorite protection, rule infringements, restraint requirements)
Media and Communications Centre (film editing suite, press room, Mars TV production centre, Earth-Mars communication,  communication with mining outposts, Mars satellite communication, Radio/TV station for the colony, colony website, Mars internet).
Habs x 50  (average 20 persons per hab, each with central kitchen facility)
Gym
Sports and concert hall

Of the 1000 people maybe the following breakdown would be realistic:

50 -  Agriculture and food production
100 - Industrial production
300 - Scientific research projects
50 -   Mars University Institute
100 - Mars exploration projects
50 -   Mars mining
10 -   Medical staff
100 - Media and Communications
20  - Warehouse
50  - Central Admin
30 -  Space Agency staff
10 -  Space X admin
30  -  Spaceport and rocket preparation
20  - Methane and propellant production
10  -  Transport Maintenance
20  -  Retail and distribution
50 -  Life Support and Waste Management
10  - Emergency Response
50 -  Construction
10  -Gym and sports hall management
10  - Habs Support and Management

(Some jobs would be part time)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#2 2018-03-15 20:18:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,798

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

10 crewed missions of the 100 per BFR supported by 2 cargo BFR landing at first oportunity of the earth mars cycle and to continue to support them another with cargo landings to continue to support the first crew and each crews addition to the colony survival.  Not sure how many are truely support cargo landing as to how many are truely needed as we increment the size of the colony.

Offline

#3 2018-03-16 02:12:53

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

Well for a colony of 1000 food alone over 2 years would be in the region of 1000 tonnes - so about 7 BFR cargo loads. I think once your colony is beyond 100 people, ISRU agriculture makes a lot of sense.

I think a colony of 1000 might be at the upper limit for non-permanent settlement.  If all those 1000 average a 3 year stay for instance, then you need to be transporting over 600 people between Mars and Earth every couple of years. So six BFRs for human transportation and maybe another 2 for cargo, so 8 BFRs coming in on the window of opportunity, and maybe another 6 going out (I'm assuming there isn't the opportunity for a return flight by the same BFR). That would be 14 BFRs in operation...maybe throw in a couple of spares...16. At a cost of $2000 per kg that would be in the region of $4.5 billion that would have to be covered every 2 years. Obviously if costs can be brought down substantially further, then the upper limit for non-permanent population will be higher.


SpaceNut wrote:

10 crewed missions of the 100 per BFR supported by 2 cargo BFR landing at first oportunity of the earth mars cycle and to continue to support them another with cargo landings to continue to support the first crew and each crews addition to the colony survival.  Not sure how many are truely support cargo landing as to how many are truely needed as we increment the size of the colony.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#4 2018-03-16 02:56:18

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,262

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

This is ambitious Louis. I think it unlikely that we will be around to see it. For earlier activities you might look at Halley Bay as a model.
By the time there are 1000 personnel there will be nuclear power reactors. The area of PV panels for a settlement that size would be unmanageably large, considering it has to produce power during prolonged dust storms and during partial outage for maintenance. And even on a good sol at the equator it will produce about half of what it would in an earth desert.
Your costings should show the earth support end where the organisation is based, where it procures materials and where the product is distributed. Maybe it does?

Offline

#5 2018-03-16 05:45:38

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

I haven't gone into costings here really. I was just trying to get a rough take on cost of flights which would be a major limiting factor on non-permanent settlement (because you are always having to ferry people back after a couple or more years).

I also didn't give an estimate on how long it would take to get to 1000 people. I think there will definitely be the interest ie there will definitely be 300 scientists at any one time who want to be on Mars undertaking research, so it is not problematic from that point of view. But getting them there and keeping them alive will take a lot of effort, more than an Antarctic base. I think it might take 20 years (10 launch window cycles) or so to get to that level. But the BFR is ideally suited to growing the base quickly in the early stages. It can theoretically transport 100 people to Mars in one go...it wouldn't necessarily take that long to build up in numbers, though obviously you have to construct habs and so on.

PV panel fields could end up being v. large, but the one thing there is definitely available Mars is land in abundance. It will easier for the nascent colony to begin building its own PV panels, than it will be to start building nuclear reactors. I am suggesting methane is the back up power source for the colony. Probably would need to be manufactured but we do have a methane signature on Mars and so it might be possible to tap into in situ reserves. Oxygen would of course have to be manufactured as well, but plants do produce oxygen, so I don't know whether you could site your methane power plant within agricultural centres...that might make sense.

elderflower wrote:

This is ambitious Louis. I think it unlikely that we will be around to see it. For earlier activities you might look at Halley Bay as a model.
By the time there are 1000 personnel there will be nuclear power reactors. The area of PV panels for a settlement that size would be unmanageably large, considering it has to produce power during prolonged dust storms and during partial outage for maintenance. And even on a good sol at the equator it will produce about half of what it would in an earth desert.
Your costings should show the earth support end where the organisation is based, where it procures materials and where the product is distributed. Maybe it does?

Last edited by louis (2018-03-16 10:53:03)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#6 2018-03-16 10:15:38

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,306

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

One factor Louis continues to overlook in his solar planning is the visual impact of the myriad of solar panels he envisions. For visitors to Mars, they don't really want to see a massive solar farm, they want to see the magnificent desolation of the planet. I happen to believe that tourism will play an important role in early visitation to the red planet, and as a result there will be massive resistance by the (hopefully) burgeoning tourist industry. Yes, as he states, there is a lot of land on Mars, and dedication of too much of it to his solar farm would really offend me. There are plenty of places here on Earth where I can go look at these!

Offline

#7 2018-03-16 10:41:35

Terraformer
Member
From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,560
Website

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

Space based solar power might actually make sense on Mars. There's no wildlife to affect, and plenty of space to set up the rectennas. Being in orbit, the panels wouldn't be subject to dust storms.

How long would people be staying on Mars? 5 year tours of duty, leaving during the second launch window?

I really don't expect the first base to have 1000 people in it. More like 20, with a significantly smaller skeleton crew at the start. The focus would be on figuring out how to live on Mars, find out where the best locations are for various resources, finding out what unforeseen problems we have with our existing plans...


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

Offline

#8 2018-03-16 11:05:44

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,343
Website

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

Oldfart1939 wrote:

visual impact of the myriad of solar panels... visitors to Mars, they don't really want to see a massive solar farm, they want to see the magnificent desolation of the planet.

No, not everyone does. A lot of people want to go to Mars in order to get away from the unreasonable, overbearing, excessive regulation we are inflicted with here on Earth.

Examples: a few years ago I had a date with a lovely young lady. She had 2 part-time jobs in order to add up to full-time. Housekeeping and laundry, both at the same hospital. Her employer required her to take a $3,000 training course for each job, then work full-time for free as a "practicum" for 3 months, for each job. She wasn't the only one, every employee of that hospital was required to do so. This is the employer screwing their employees.

Another example: my first job (other than paperboy and lawn mowing/raking) was setup crew at the Convention Centre. I set up tables and chairs, portable walls, dance floors, stage, etc. One day the lead hand spent 10 minutes showing me how to use the "Gator". It's similar to a powered pallet jack, but lighter and longer "forks" designed to carry tables and chairs instead of a pallet. Today workers require red-seal certification to operate a "Gator".

In 2009 I had my clothes dryer repaired. The technician said to replace it I would require a $200 license from the City for permission to have a natural gas dryer, plus cost of a red-seal certified pipe fitter to install the natural gas, plus cost of the appliance. Plus they don't allow a brass flex line any more, now they require a double-wall stainless steel flex line. It cost a something over $100 to repair my existing dryer. Bearing for the blower was shot. The technician took the blower out, cleaned it and removed the bearing in his shop, took the bearing to a business that specializes in rebuilding bearings, then re-installed it. The V-belt broke, but he said it was probably the original belt, that was cheap. Meanwhile a friend had a clothes dryer less than 10 years old. Main bearings for the drum were shot. He tried to fix it himself, but in the end needed a new dryer. I looked for a manufacturing date on my dryer, couldn't find one so phoned the manufacturer. They said based on the model number, it was made either in 1961 or 1962. So it's older than I am. And now that my dryer is fixed, it'll last another 25 years. But the worst problem in this story is the City license fee. I could understand requiring a professional installer hook up the gas, but a license fee on top of that?!?

The reason for moving to Mars is to tell government officials where to shove it! So no, we don't want government regulation restricting solar panels. Set up a solar panel farm on one side of the main base. You can see terrain with lots of tracks from off-road vehicles on the other. If you want to see natural desolation, go take a field trip.

Offline

#9 2018-03-16 11:08:05

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

I agree about solar power satellites - and there are precious few clouds to get in the way.

For the avoidance of doubt, I was not suggesting the base would have 1000 people from the get-go but rather was looking at how the equivalent of a McMurdo base might look on Mars. I think Mission One is likely to involve even fewer people than you suggest (less than 10). But with BFRs in operation, you could easily get up to 1000 people over 10 launch windows (20 years).

I was working on an average of three years of stays on Mars - with some people working on 2 year projects and others on 4 years.

Terraformer wrote:

Space based solar power might actually make sense on Mars. There's no wildlife to affect, and plenty of space to set up the rectennas. Being in orbit, the panels wouldn't be subject to dust storms.

How long would people be staying on Mars? 5 year tours of duty, leaving during the second launch window?

I really don't expect the first base to have 1000 people in it. More like 20, with a significantly smaller skeleton crew at the start. The focus would be on figuring out how to live on Mars, find out where the best locations are for various resources, finding out what unforeseen problems we have with our existing plans...


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#10 2018-03-16 11:08:53

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,306

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

At this juncture: let's  simply "get there!" And as access improves, so will the associated problems of a frontier society. Maybe careful screening will minimize (but not eliminate) "antisocial behavior." This means that there will of necessity be some form of "societal behavior enforcement," i.e. cops and a holding facility (jail). There will also be a need for relaxing activities, which means some use of alcoholic beverages, hallucinogenic substances, and probably even prostitution. These are not normally discussed at Mars Society meetings, but a look back to the American frontier in the 1870 through even 1910, will serve to illustrate the possibilities which may (probably) arise.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2018-03-16 12:27:16)

Offline

#11 2018-03-16 11:10:18

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

There will be plenty of desolation left over for them to see. smile

Oldfart1939 wrote:

One factor Louis continues to overlook in his solar planning is the visual impact of the myriad of solar panels he envisions. For visitors to Mars, they don't really want to see a massive solar farm, they want to see the magnificent desolation of the planet. I happen to believe that tourism will play an important role in early visitation to the red planet, and as a result there will be massive resistance by the (hopefully) burgeoning tourist industry. Yes, as he states, there is a lot of land on Mars, and dedication of too much of it to his solar farm would really offend me. There are plenty of places here on Earth where I can go look at these!


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#12 2018-03-16 11:16:55

IanM
Banned
From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 276

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

With respect to solar panels, I do agree that the desolation of Mars is indeed a part of why someone would visit (such as myself), especially given that it's like the American West or Australian Outback but much larger than both of those put together and much dryer, and I can see why too much development might ruin that (much of Southern California is ruined IMO by development, although there's still much of nature). On the other hand, I do think there's enough room for both a solar area on one area and natural beauty in another. Ultimately, though, I do favor nuclear over solar for a mature colony (i.e., around many hundreds to thousands of settlers, and more) simply due to reasons of space, availability during dust storms and nighttime, and efficiency.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

Offline

#13 2018-03-16 12:47:36

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

To think of it as a "frontier society" is fundamentally misleading...the Antarctic is not a frontier society, in the American sense, it is a highly regulated science-focussed community and I expect Mars to be like that for the first two or three decades.  I am sure Musk will push to develop ISRU but it is the science that will be a major revenue stream. 

Maybe after a few decades life support technology will have improved and rocket transport costs will have reduced by so much that full scale "homestead" colonisation becomes feasible.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

At this juncture: let's  simply "get there!" And as access improves, so will the associated problems of a frontier society. Maybe careful screening will minimize (but not eliminate) "antisocial behavior." This means that there will of necessity be some form of "societal behavior enforcement," i.e. cops and a holding facility (jail). There will also be a need for relaxing activities, which means some use of alcoholic beverages, hallucinogenic substances, and probably even prostitution. These are not normally discussed at Mars Society meetings, but a look back to the American frontier in the 1870 through even 1910, will serve to illustrate the possibilities which may (probably) arise.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#14 2018-03-16 12:52:29

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

I think a combination of landscaping and use of natural craters will allow is to address visual intrusion but I am not sure most people will find them a problem. If I was living on Mars, I'd rather like seeing the vast solar fields gleaming in the Sun - a reassuring presence.

Such matters can however be settled by the democratic process.

IanM wrote:

With respect to solar panels, I do agree that the desolation of Mars is indeed a part of why someone would visit (such as myself), especially given that it's like the American West or Australian Outback but much larger than both of those put together and much dryer, and I can see why too much development might ruin that (much of Southern California is ruined IMO by development, although there's still much of nature). On the other hand, I do think there's enough room for both a solar area on one area and natural beauty in another. Ultimately, though, I do favor nuclear over solar for a mature colony (i.e., around many hundreds to thousands of settlers, and more) simply due to reasons of space, availability during dust storms and nighttime, and efficiency.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#15 2018-03-16 13:06:38

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,306

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

Louis-
I live in the American west, and have to live with the sight of solar farms and wind farms on a daily basis. I find them highly offensive visually. I'm not willing to accept solar other than strictly local as part of other structures (solar panel roofs, for example). I had an opportunity to lease part of my property for a wind farm and declined to do so because of neighborhood social pressures. Solar roof for any structure? GO FOR IT! Outside--clearly in my view--forget it. I envision a small outside solar array as a necessary part of the first pioneer outpost, but after that--nuclear is clearly the best answer if the settlement is deigned to grow. How many times would a solar farm need to be displaced by outward settlement growth? You envision hills covered with solar panels--I don't.

Offline

#16 2018-03-16 13:11:01

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

I don't disagree some people find solar and wind power systems visually offensive. But conventional and nuclear power stations don't get many votes either. Solar power satellite will probably be the least visually intrusive system in due course. But obviously we are not there yet.


Oldfart1939 wrote:

Louis-
I live in the American west, and have to live with the sight of solar farms and wind farms on a daily basis. I find them highly offensive visually. I'm not willing to accept solar other than strictly local as part of other structures (solar panel roofs, for example). I had an opportunity to lease part of my property for a wind farm and declined to do so because of neighborhood social pressures. Solar roof for any structure? GO FOR IT! Outside--clearly in my view--forget it. I envision a small outside solar array as a necessary part of the first pioneer outpost, but after that--nuclear is clearly the best answer if the settlement is deigned to grow. How many times would a solar farm need to be displaced by outward settlement growth? You envision hills covered with solar panels--I don't.

Last edited by louis (2018-03-16 13:11:23)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#17 2018-03-16 18:55:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,798

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

Lets look at scaling down the list of 1000 towards that to which is a first mission sizing since the duration of that mission with out knowing the dangers of being on a reduced shielding planet for the health reasons since the twin experiment shows that even the DNA was damaged such that 7% still has not comeback. So a 1% mission is 10 people which more than satifies the question of gravity and exposure. So should the next mission be of a greater than 100 is the question as we will need to build from what is remaining with the crew new supplies and what remains behind from that first which is still useable.
So the only requirement is to refine the list on the first 10 to specialize in what needs to be done is detail the mission and adjust the personel for that mission.

Offline

#18 2018-03-17 07:43:31

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

I think for Mission One you can narrow it down a lot.

- Energy generation (Space X appear to be running with PV but perhaps they will take some RTGs as well)

- Propellant production.

- Accommodation hab (including a health monitoring unit)

- Science lab/workshop (including 3D printer)

- Rover for exploration.

But of course with nearly 300 tonnes delivered to the planet there's scope to do a lot more.

The DNA changes observed in the twin experiment are interesting...though, let's not get carried away and think they are necessarily life-shortening changes. Most long term zero G astronauts seem to live into old age and of course Mars isn't itself zero G.

So, if we are concerned about that, one option would be to have a centrifuge hab for sleeping and exercise if we really want to tackle low G effects:

https://www.nasa.gov/ames/research/spac … centrifuge

The above centrifuge is 60 feet in diameter and I would guess weighs something like 2 tonnes, perhaps more. It has 3 compartments. I think putting up a hab to house such a centrifuge would be feasible. I am not sure you could use an inflatable. But maybe the crew could assemble the building from parts.

A NASA study showed just a relatively short time in 2G (just an hour a day) could prevent muscular atrophy. So if that is the case, the centrifuge could just be part of the exercise routine.

However, weighted suits on Mars could probably do the same job in terms of muscular atrophy.  The cause of negative effects on the immune system is unknown I believe  - so that argues more for the centrifuge.


SpaceNut wrote:

Lets look at scaling down the list of 1000 towards that to which is a first mission sizing since the duration of that mission with out knowing the dangers of being on a reduced shielding planet for the health reasons since the twin experiment shows that even the DNA was damaged such that 7% still has not comeback. So a 1% mission is 10 people which more than satifies the question of gravity and exposure. So should the next mission be of a greater than 100 is the question as we will need to build from what is remaining with the crew new supplies and what remains behind from that first which is still useable.
So the only requirement is to refine the list on the first 10 to specialize in what needs to be done is detail the mission and adjust the personel for that mission.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#19 2018-03-17 20:29:46

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,798

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

Air. Shelter. Water. Food. equipment for construction and modification to what is brought on each of the future cargo runs are expected to change with each 300 tonnes delivered to the planet on each mars build up cycle.

Future mission build up to the 100 would mean a command structure within the first crew to handle what must be done. So this first groups are future needs from lists created by Louis.

Space X admin is a future need (colony, mission command on Mars) not really needed until we get to more than a few projects or activities taking place in different areas of mars. Emergency Response is not really a possible effort from earth but only a base to base issue once we are to the advance colonies count of people on mars.

Central Admin, Habs Support and Management (Air. Shelter. Water. Food and Exploration) are a future only required to monitor actual staffing once we begin to reach colony size of resource management. Gym and sports hall management will also be an advance colony item with just some equipment to be sent to maintain health of crews in the early stages of a developing colony build up.

Mars University Institute (science) is future requirement to better document science, to keep from duplicating research and for forwarding of findings once colony size and number of activities increase.

Warehouse, Retail and distribution is a real distant future item as this requires some sort of barter or money for individuals

To accomodate the 10 people maybe the following breakdown what would be realistic since we will not be all experts on everything.

Media and Communications is a 2 fold item to which the documentary and advance movie making are a far off thought. The standard beaming of science and other aspects of reporting to earth as a must would be the limits such as to not tax the systems data rates.

Energy generation if with PV and some RTGs if nuclear is clearly not happening (learn lean concepts to keep reserves high for the unexpected, maintain cell dust levels for maximuum energy production, monitor battery conditions)

Industrial production of Construction would be limited (exploration search for minerals, science testing)
Mars mining (water, building materials stored for future use, precious ore or gem stones come later and are samples for return flight)

Space Agency staff (Rocket Landing command, return, Communication)
Propellant production of Methane and Lox production (monitor quality, quantity and nore any difficulties in manufacturing)
Spaceport and rocket preparation (maintenance for return vehicle as fuel is made of air qualtity, batteries and other power source components)

Accommodation hab (including a health monitoring unit)
Medical staff crew members (will be a shared responsibilty to learn)
Agriculture and food production (initial trials of quick grow plants all should give it a try)
Life Support and Waste Management (monitor equipment and learn recycling)

Science lab/workshop including 3D printer to assure safe Scientific research projects ( limit to search for past and present life above and below surface, explore caves if found)

Rover for exploration and use for Mars exploration projects ( learn how to make them rover life expentancy longer by maintaning condition of use, limit terrain abuse to vehicle) Transport Maintenance Would be nice if it could be done inside a sealed atmospheric car port but the will need to wait on the first missions and will be walk arounds to veiw for damage.

Offline

#20 2018-03-18 17:00:15

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

SpaceNut wrote:

To accomodate the 10 people maybe the following breakdown what would be realistic since we will not be all experts on everything.

Media and Communications is a 2 fold item to which the documentary and advance movie making are a far off thought. The standard beaming of science and other aspects of reporting to earth as a must would be the limits such as to not tax the systems data rates.

I'm hoping that Musk will also deliver a step change in data transfer from Mars. Once again he is developing useful expertise, in this case  with his orbital internet for Earth.  I think also Space X show themselves to be very media-savvy and will want to ensure that a strong media presence for Mars gets priority.

SpaceNut wrote:

  Energy generation if with PV and some RTGs if nuclear is clearly not happening (learn lean concepts to keep reserves high for the unexpected, maintain cell dust levels for maximuum energy production, monitor battery conditions)

Yes, in the early phase you definitely need to plan for energy storage in some form, whether it be batteries, or methane/oxygen or something else. As I've noted before though, even the worst dust storms don't reduce PV generation by more than 80%.  I think plan for 5x emergency energy requirement and ensure you deliver energy storage as part of the non-human cargo package delivered in advance of humans arriving on Mars.

SpaceNut wrote:

Industrial production of Construction would be limited (exploration search for minerals, science testing)
Mars mining (water, building materials stored for future use, precious ore or gem stones come later and are samples for return flight)

I agree that,  for Mission One, construction effort should be limited.  In fact until you probably get beyond 50 people it's probably easier just to import inflatable or other prefab habs rather than devote a lot of effort to construction. Beyond that it probably becomes necessary to use your industrial infrastructure to create ISRU constructed habs on Mars.

SpaceNut wrote:

Accommodation hab (including a health monitoring unit)
Medical staff crew members (will be a shared responsibilty to learn)
Agriculture and food production (initial trials of quick grow plants all should give it a try)
Life Support and Waste Management (monitor equipment and learn recycling)

Science lab/workshop including 3D printer to assure safe Scientific research projects ( limit to search for past and present life above and below surface, explore caves if found)

Rover for exploration and use for Mars exploration projects ( learn how to make them rover life expentancy longer by maintaning condition of use, limit terrain abuse to vehicle) Transport Maintenance Would be nice if it could be done inside a sealed atmospheric car port but the will need to wait on the first missions and will be walk arounds to veiw for damage.

I think a Rover could avoid a lot of wheel abuse if fitted with a bulldozer style attachment to get rocks out of the way.

Is cave exploration safe for Mission One?  I'd have my doubts. Why risk a disaster (cave collapse)?

It seems like there is still quite a lot of research to be done on life support recycling to avoid glitches.  Perhaps this is one of the reasons Musk has opted for a big rocket approach - to provide a strong element of fail safeness should recycling failures occur.

Yes, try out some salad vegetables, some beans...anything quick growing.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#21 2022-05-26 04:43:12

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 4,782

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

Will the Conservative Mars Supreme Court of the Mars Empeor allow such a thing as drugs and prostitution?


Oldfart1939 wrote:

There will also be a need for relaxing activities, which means some use of alcoholic beverages, hallucinogenic substances, and probably even prostitution.

Supreme Court of India recognizes sex work as a ‘profession’
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ … 1.ece?s=09

the Alcohol thread
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7376

louis wrote:

Here are some details about McMurdo station,

"More than 85 buildings with facilities

Some very interesting farming experiments also
I will have to dig through some of the Robot Farm and Verticle Farming threads to find and re-post some very interesting experiments done in the South Pole Stations.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-05-26 04:46:39)

Offline

#22 2022-06-26 06:50:47

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,226

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

This engineer discusses the difficulties with boring tunnels on Mars.
https://engineercalcs.com/living-underg … hallenges/

Makes me wonder if maybe a pneumatic drill mounted onto a tractor is a less complex and easier solution for a first base.  We don't need to drill miles of tunnels to start off.  We just need to carve out a set of chambers linked by corridors.  We managed to dig mines on Earth long before we had tunnel boring machines.

Earth bag construction has been discuseed before.  We would need to bring the bags from Earth but they would be relatively light.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthbag_construction

Last edited by Calliban (2022-06-26 07:23:36)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Online

#23 2022-09-22 13:44:18

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 4,782

Re: Imagining the First Mars Colony

Endurance wreck: Nations look to protect Shackleton ship from damage
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-61890273

Military Report Says Space Force Must Prepare for Moon Warfare
https://futurism.com/the-byte/military- … on-warfare

The Antarctic Treaty: a unique governance for the environment and science
https://www.encyclopedie-environnement. … d-science/

With the radical ideas like drugs, booze, prostitution, jails and gambling perhaps Mars will have vices, Mars might attract Neo-Traditional or Puritan but also the type getting away from something where marriage would be a dying institution? It reminds me of that whole Mens Rights, Red Pill, "Men in Crisis" movement, couples turning marriage into expansive dates, till death do us part but going to continue making such promises when their real-life experience shows them the very opposite?

Maybe one Day Film makers or Gamers or people writing books will go to Mars because the planet has more creative freedom to be pro-Men, pro-Women, pro-America, pro-Africa, pro-Asia or Sexist or whatever crazy movement of the day?

The Red Pill is a 2016 American documentary film directed by Cassie Jaye. The film explores the men's rights movement, as Jaye spends a year filming the leaders and followers within the movement. The Australian premiere at the Palace Kino cinema in Melbourne cancelled their planned November 6 screening after a petition circulated that called the film "misogynistic propaganda".
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news-an … sa79y.html

GamerGate, ComicsGate, and Sad Puppies — And Why They’re All the Same
https://medium.com/reflections-of-a-gro … d1689c8cdb

Mars ain’t the kind of place to raise your kids.
https://www.thespacereview.com/article/3225/1

'But beyond simply the ability to achieve immortality for humanity, there has been a utopian undercurrent to space advocacy, a belief that space settlement will allow for the creation of new societies, coupled with a belief that these societies will be better than those on Earth. Robert Zubrin has advocated a version of this vision, claiming that the challenges of settling Mars will produce incredible technological rewards and a renewal of the American spirit. Many other space settlement advocates believe that space settlements offer the opportunity to throw off the shackles of oppressive government and start a new society, with fewer rules and a fantastic view of Olympus Mons. Such arguments tend to be very American-centric, relying upon cultural myths of the settlement of the American West that are not only highly distorted, but also not shared by non-Americans, or even younger Americans.'

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB