Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

louis · 2017-12-08 16:28:57

I think the Atlantropa project can be seen as a precusor of the Mars terraformation proposal...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5s4ywsCFAI

RobertDyck · 2017-12-08 20:08:06

Ambitious. But you realize doing something as dramatic as lowering the level of a sea as large as the Mediterranean means the water has to go somewhere. That would increase ocean levels world-wide.

And physically unifying Europe with north-Africa would end conflict? That's Utopian and naïve. Look what happened when the Cold War ended, and eastern Europe tried to unify with western. It still hasn't completed. Yugoslavia broke up in a bloody civil war. There's still conflict in east Ukraine. And this guy wants to add north Africa to the mix? But it was a proposal from 1920 until this man's death in 1952. His proposal was before the Cold War, and formed even before World War 2.

louis · 2017-12-08 20:56:24

I am definitely not advocating this! But if you did do it, given the Med coastal areas are pretty shallow I don't think you would raise ocean levels that much, plus, the project involved creating inland African seas, so that makes up for the Med loss.

RobertDyck wrote:

Ambitious. But you realize doing something as dramatic as lowering the level of a sea as large as the Mediterranean means the water has to go somewhere. That would increase ocean levels world-wide.
And physically unifying Europe with north-Africa would end conflict? That's Utopian and naïve. Look what happened when the Cold War ended, and eastern Europe tried to unify with western. It still hasn't completed. Yugoslavia broke up in a bloody civil war. There's still conflict in east Ukraine. And this guy wants to add north Africa to the mix? But it was a proposal from 1920 until this man's death in 1952. His proposal was before the Cold War, and formed even before World War 2.

louis · 2017-12-09 12:53:32

If you had to connect continents I think an Ameuropa project would be better...build a series of bridges and roads, with a Hyperloop underneath...North Scotland-Orkneys-Shetlands-Faeroe Islands-Iceland-Greenland-Baffin Island-Labrador. No stretch of sea is more than about 200 miles. The Danyang–Kunshan Grand Bridge spans 102 miles (no doubt over shallow seas but then we have oil rigs in pretty deep water) so this isn't impossible...just very, very difficult! lol

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@64.62916 … 1942617,4z

elderflower · 2017-12-09 14:02:10

For surface transport from North America to Europe it would probably be cheaper and easier to build a hyperloop crossing the Behring Strait.

RobertDyck · 2017-12-09 14:38:04

A Russian businessman proposed a railroad bridge across the Bering Straight. It would connect Siberia to Alaska. Using my old copy of Microsoft Encarta, going from Naukan Siberia to the Big Diomede island (Russian) to Little Diomede island (American) to "Cape Prince of Wales" Alaska, is 86.5km. That includes the islands. Longest stretch from mainland to island would be 37.7km. This would connect freight by rail all the way from Europe to Canada, and through Canada to the US. Forget container ships, all containers could move by rail. It would be faster, and no pirates in Russia, Alaska, or Canada. Of course it means all freight traffic between Europe and America would have to go through Russia. American officials didn't like it.

One practical problem: European rail gauge is 4' 8½" (1,435 mm). North American rail gauge is the same. However, Russia chose to build their rail system with an incompatible rail gauge so that European countries couldn't carry troops and war materiel on Russia rails when invading Russia. That decision was made during the Russia empire, at the time of Tzars, long before the Soviet Union. Before invention of the automobile, when rail was the major form of inland transport. Consequently, Russia has 5' (1,524 mm) rail gauge. Under influence of the Soviet Union, eastern European countries now use the Russian gauge: "Baltic states, Ukraine, Belarus, the Caucasian and Central Asian republics, Finland, and in the once Soviet-influenced Mongolia". Of course this means the trans-Siberian railway is Russian gauge.

America and Canada complied with the British standard. Britain used wheel spacing the same as horse-drawn wagons and carts, designed to run on roads built when the ancient Roman empire was in control. That meant the same jigs used to manufacture axles could be used. They couldn't change wagon wheel spacing because Roman roads with stone pavement had been used so long they developed ruts. Attempting to use a wagon with any other wheel spacing would break the axles. Ancient Romans chose that wheel spacing based on the width of two horses. Their chariots were drawn by two horses, and large wagons had two horses side-by-side. So the rail gauge is based on the width of two horses asses.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-12-09 15:19:30)

elderflower · 2017-12-09 14:50:14

The Great Western Railway, built under Brunel, used a 7 foot guage which allowed heavier trains and higjher speeds. Unfortunately this concept lost out because of investment costing. Shame!
Incidentally, doesn't Musk remind you of Brunel?

Terraformer · 2017-12-09 16:58:11

Build a travel network based on the Dymaxion map:

East-west through Eurasia, and north-south for the Americas and Africa. Travelling at ~400mph, which is a good trade off for a hyperloop style system, we could achieve ~10,000 miles a day. It would still be worth extending the network to completion across the atlantic if feasible. The kiwis would have to fly to Australia though I think, and I would expect it to cover Eurasia and North America first.

RobertDyck · 2017-12-09 17:47:33

China uses the same rail gauge as the west, but not connected to Europe. Ideally you would need container carrying rail cars that can travel on both rail gauges. Trans-Siberian railway was built for maximum 80 km/h (50 mph) speed, but according to Wikipedia, in 2009 Russia announced an ambitious upgrade: "Trans-Siberian in Seven Days". But a Chinese company built a connection from Europe by rail to China: China-Netherlands. The announcement claims service has already begun, formally called Chengdu-Tilburg-Rotterdam-Express. They claim freight service in 15 days. How did they do that?

Service could go that way. An extension from north-east China through Russia to the Bering Straight would be required. But Trans-Siberian follows southern Siberia anyway, an extension along that same route would be required. That extension could be built with a double-head rail on one side. Difference between western and Russian rail gauge is 3½". Rails have 6" base, 2 15/16" head. A single rail built with two heads: one at each gauge. This would allow either Russian or western cars to drive on it. Connect to both the Trans-Siberian and north-east Chinese rail system, all the way to Bering Straight. Rail wheels are 5½" wide, so that wouldn't leave enough room between rail heads for the wheel flange.

A double-stack rail transport is a rail car designed to carry 2 shipping containers, one on top of the other. To fit under rail bridges, the lower container is actually slung below the level a standard rail car. Wheel bogie is between these cars. A custom wheel bogie could be designed, with an axle that doesn't turn with wheels. Instead a bearing like a truck wheel. This would allow the entire wheel support assembly to be moved out 1¾" on each side to drive on Russian rail gauge. It would have to be securely locked in place, but containers have to be securely locked to each other to ensure the top one doesn't fall off. A similar robust lock. Such rail cars could drive any rail system

A container ship normal cruising speed is 20-25 knots (37.0 - 46.3 km/h). How long to send cargo from Rotterdam to New York? Or Rotterdam to Los Angeles? Compare that to rail.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-12-09 17:50:10)

louis · 2017-12-09 18:07:41

Good lateral thinking - literally!

elderflower wrote:

For surface transport from North America to Europe it would probably be cheaper and easier to build a hyperloop crossing the Behring Strait.

louis · 2017-12-09 18:08:45

Brunel crossed with Edison.

elderflower wrote:

The Great Western Railway, built under Brunel, used a 7 foot guage which allowed heavier trains and higjher speeds. Unfortunately this concept lost out because of investment costing. Shame!
Incidentally, doesn't Musk remind you of Brunel?

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#1 2017-12-08 16:28:57

Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

#2 2017-12-08 20:08:06

Re: Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

#3 2017-12-08 20:56:24

Re: Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

#4 2017-12-09 12:53:32

Re: Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

#5 2017-12-09 14:02:10

Re: Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

#6 2017-12-09 14:38:04

Re: Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

#7 2017-12-09 14:50:14

Re: Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

#8 2017-12-09 16:58:11

Re: Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

#9 2017-12-09 17:47:33

Re: Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

#10 2017-12-09 18:07:41

Re: Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

#11 2017-12-09 18:08:45

Re: Atlantrop project - an early terraformation-style project.

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