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Oldfart1939

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Registered: 2016-11-26

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Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

I just read this article yesterday and afterwards it hit me that this could contain a partial answer to the Fermi Paradox regarding alien civilizations. The various planet finding studies have shown that a preponderance of rocky planets seem to be "Super Earths" and are considerably larger that Terra. That means a huge gravitational well from which chemical propulsion rockets would be unable to escape. If they cannot get to space, then they can't be traipsing around the galaxy to visit other planets. Here's the article as published in Space.com: https://www.space.com/37414-earth-50-pe … stuck.html

SpaceNut; not sure this post should be in this category so feel free to move to a more appropriate venue, should one exist.

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,820

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

No worries are you appear to be interested in how would they get of there large Rock...

They would be very strong, and due to the age of the civilization would be quite advanced if they have not klled themselve via power.

Large magnetic replusion plates to lift from one plate to another could be used like a stair case from one to another pushing and pulling them to orbit. They could be solar nuclear powered for field creation and possibly of rare magnetic materials as well.

Oldfart1939

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Registered: 2016-11-26

Posts: 2,377

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

As we have already experienced, making that first step out of the gravity well to low planetary orbit took a long time to accomplish. If another alien race tried similar means as we have gone to and failed--that would definitely take a lot longer and a far more advanced civilization to overcome. The gravity wells, when coupled with speed of light limitations, makes it seem unlikely that there are very many--if any--deep space faring civilizations running around.

Getting off that large rock might be too difficult and--something the SF writers never consider--too expensive for their societies to undertake. Based on our dealings with politicians and space budgets, anyway!

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,820

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

But if they have birds and have gotten to aircrafts then the dream of going higher is already instilled for getting to space as they have seen the stars.
Yes the initial craft would be small but with each step upward they can make it via sub asembly. Even we are looking at space elevators and towers to the sky.

Antius

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From: Cumbria, UK

Registered: 2007-05-22

Posts: 1,003

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

About a year ago, I attended a lecture given by a senior astronomer on the subject of exoplanets.  He seemed to think that the preponderance of super-Earths in close orbits was more an artefact of our detection methods, not a representation of genuine abundance.  Time will tell.

But I think your point is basically correct.  If the Earth were much more massive than it is, it would be very difficult to reach orbit without nuclear pulse propulsion.  If a substantial portion of planets are super-Earths, then that would appear to be another constant in the Drake equation.

What we have learned about bacterial life suggests that it is both hardy and adaptable and capable of arising in many environments in our own solar system.  But complex multicellular life requires a far narrower set of conditions to survive and didn't emerge on Earth until late in its existence.  It is easy to see that a complex civilisation requires an even more favourable set of conditions, stable over long periods, in order to arise.  Long shot: Life is everywhere, but complex and intelligent life with advanced technology is rare indeed.

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,820

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n … exoplanets
Proxima Centauri     4.2
Proxima b, orbits around our nearest stellar neighbor, Proxima Centauri, every 11 days and may just be the closest planetary host for alien life.

Alpha Centauri is a binary star system    4.36
https://www.wired.com/2012/10/earth-exo … -centauri/
https://phys.org/news/2016-08-earth-lik … tauri.html

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn … ar-system/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n … candidates

https://techcrunch.com/2016/08/24/astro … -to-earth/

GW Johnson

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From: McGregor, Texas USA

Registered: 2011-12-04

Posts: 5,453

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Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

Fermi paradox:  why would anybody advanced enough for interstellar travel want to stop and talk to primitives like us?  We still kill each other.  That alone may explain the lack of ET contact.   

Although,  I agree with Antius that while life as microbes may be quite common,  multicellular life would seem to be much rarer,  and intelligent lifeforms rarer still.  The history here would seem to indicate that,  although we cannot discount that our Earth may be the anomaly rather than the average. 

GW

---

GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,820

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

Currently even after multiple decades and the fastest of probes its still hundreds of years before even if we were headed in the correct direction before we could even send a return signal even if it had the strength to be recieved here who would be around that would care to listen in on what that probe would have to say....

Oldfart1939

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Registered: 2016-11-26

Posts: 2,377

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

I would say that the existence of a deep gravity well would discourage any evolving species from space travel. It would certainly slow it's development until the nuclear/thermonuclear options became viable. How many evolving species would destroy themselves with nukes before harnessing their power?

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

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Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

https://www.space.com/33872-proxima-b-c … aphic.html

This would not bowed well that they being an older civilization would have done so....

Gravity I think still would have been overcomed in time as we have done.

Oldfart1939

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Registered: 2016-11-26

Posts: 2,377

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

I'm not claiming that the gravity well of a Super Earth would be insurmountable, but would be an engineering problem an order of magnitude more difficult to overcome. As the problem increases in difficulty and complexity, the associated costs are directly proportional. Would we have gone to the moon and returned if the cost of doing so had been 10x greater? Would we even be talking about going to Mars if we were at the bottom of a gravity well with a gravitational constant of 15 to 20 meters/sec^2? The size and complexity would be unaffordable unless the society were much wealthier than ours.

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,175

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

It's going to be a while before we do an Alpha Centarui mission, it might have 40+ years maybe 80+ years maybe it will have to be a multi generational thing like the foundation of Greece, the Egyptian Pyramids or the Great Wall of China, this time a mission of science done over many many generations.

60 years later, is it time to update the Drake equation?
https://phys.org/news/2021-05-years-drake-equation.html

Strange and unique Exoplanet discovery seemed to have change the science books??

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-05-18 13:20:52)

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 28,820

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

Well going slow would require a very hearty crew and ability to produce replacements for when we do get there. They would need nuclear power and then some to be able to sustain men for that period of time.
This would be a very large ship but only a small crew would be tasked to go...

Quaoar

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Registered: 2013-12-13

Posts: 652

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

I just read this article yesterday and afterwards it hit me that this could contain a partial answer to the Fermi Paradox regarding alien civilizations. The various planet finding studies have shown that a preponderance of rocky planets seem to be "Super Earths" and are considerably larger that Terra. That means a huge gravitational well from which chemical propulsion rockets would be unable to escape. If they cannot get to space, then they can't be traipsing around the galaxy to visit other planets. Here's the article as published in Space.com: https://www.space.com/37414-earth-50-pe … stuck.html

SpaceNut; not sure this post should be in this category so feel free to move to a more appropriate venue, should one exist.

Living on a superearth is not such a disadvantage as we usually think: orbital deltaV and gravitational acceleration are greater, but intelligent aliens can develop some kind of very efficient laser ablative propulsion, just separating the power source from the spaceship, and reach the space more efficiently and eco-friendly than us. If the superearth is in synchronous rotation near a red dwarf star, it has a highly insolated substellar zone and permanent winds from the light and the dark hemisphere, so our hypothetical aliens will likely develop a civilization based of sustainable wind and solar power rather than fossil fuels, with far less risk of self-destruction due to climate change and climate disaster-induced wars (one of the possible solution of the Fermi Paradox is that technological civilization annihilate themselves when fossil fuels run out).

Mastering laser and photovoltaic technologies will probably bring them to develop efficient laser-sail, opening the doors for interstellar travels

Last edited by Quaoar (2021-05-25 09:09:11)

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,175

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

New astrobiology research predicts life 'as we don't know it'

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/New_ … t_999.html

Aliens Wouldn't Need Warp Drives
https://gizmodo.com/aliens-wouldnt-need … 1847101242

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-03-02 07:31:59)

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,175

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

Space Drives?

https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2022/01 … ce-drives/

Complex Organic Molecules Found within Planetary Disc

https://thedebrief.org/complex-organic- … tary-disc/

Astronomers looked at 260,000 stars to find alien megastructures in the Milky Way

https://www.inverse.com/science/how-man … -milky-way

btw still not even a fraction of opne percent there are perhaps 250 Billion stars in the MilkyWay.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-03-11 13:30:27)

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,175

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

What lies beyond our solar system? Over 5,000 planets including 'super-Earths,' NASA says
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/sci … 126637001/

Mars mentioned here

Could humanity send astronauts to Alpha Centauri
https://www.space.com/alpha-centauri-hu … t-in-space

"One of the funny things about colonizing Mars I keep coming back to is yeah, sure, it's cool. But you'd just be making a mall, right? Essentially, you fly there and that would be cool. But it's not habitable, you can't really go outside [and it's] probably pretty dangerous," he said.

Planets in Alpha Centauri could be carbon-rich – if they exist
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/sci … 126637001/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-03-27 10:59:41)

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,175

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

NASA Scientists Design new Arecibo Message for Extraterrestrials

https://science-news.co/nasa-scientists … restrials/

Quaoar

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Registered: 2013-12-13

Posts: 652

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

[...] (one of the possible solution of the Fermi Paradox is that technological civilization annihilate themselves when fossil fuels run out).

I posted it in may 2021 when the risk of self annihilation was remote and I strongly hope I guessed wrong.

Last edited by Quaoar (2022-04-04 11:32:50)

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,175

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

Large-scale Volcanism and the Heat Death of Terrestrial Worlds

https://arxiv.org/abs/2204.12475

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,175

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

'Making life multiplanetary expands the scope & scale of consciousness.

It also enables us to backup the biosphere, protecting all life as we know it from a calamity on Earth.

Humanity is life’s steward, as no other species can transport life to Mars. We can’t let them down.'

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1533410745429413888

kbd512

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Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,413

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

Quaoar,

It's not written in stone anywhere that hydrocarbon fuels must disappear, and humanity's prosperity with it.  We can synthesize hydrocarbon fuels from scratch by recycling their chemical constituents, namely Hydrogen and Carbon Dioxide.  Fuel synthesis is a lot more energy-intensive, but we've developed technology that's up to the task.  There's no shortage of input energy to devote to that, either.  If we "bite the bullet" and do this now, then there's nothing but good things waiting for us on the other side.  However, we need people with the courage to "admit to reality", namely that we don't have any like-kind replacements for hydrocarbon fuels ready to take over.

Oldfart1939

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Registered: 2016-11-26

Posts: 2,377

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

Quaoar-
Even Elon Musk has criticized the war on fossil fuels--in spite of his financial interests in electric cars. For the average person, an electric car is simply unaffordable at this point in time.
We need to take a more eclectic approach and use petroleum to power our economies until we come to our senses and start using more nuclear energy. Solar only works when the sun is shining. Wind power is only good when the winds are blowing. It's those who are looking through their "green" glasses who simply cannot comprehend what the average "Joe Sixpack" is going through financially these days.

Mars_B4_Moon

Member

Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,175

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

Hide inside your Dark Forest...Don't make too much noise?

What is the scifi 'Dark Forest' idea in regards outer space?

Chinese writers are starting to write books based on space, some of them are getting translated to English
https://www.grimdarkmagazine.com/review … cixin-liu/

Humanity has waged war on insects for thousands of years. Despite our superior intellect and technology, insects still survive and even thrive. At the end of The Three-Body Problem, the aliens from Trisolaris send a simple message to humanity: “You’re bugs.” The gap between the Trisolarans and humans is as large as that between humans and insects. Will humanity face annihilation from this vastly more intelligent species set on colonizing Earth, or will it find a way to survive after being demoted to an insectoid state?

The people of Earth have about 400 years to prepare for the arrival of the Trisolarans, who can only travel at a small fraction of the speed of light. As the second book in Cixin Liu’s The Remembrance of Earth’s Past trilogy, The Dark Forest tells of how humanity prepares for the arrival of the Trisolarans. The main challenge is that the Trisolarans have bugged Earth with sophons, intelligent subatomic particles that can monitor all human communication and instantaneously relay it to the traveling Trisolarans via quantum entanglement.

Why We Should NOT Look For Aliens - The Dark Forest
Social media video channel u tube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAUJYP8tnRE
Kurzgesagt – In a Nutshell

Transmitting messages into space is a controversial field called ‘METI’ — Messaging Extraterrestrial Intelligence. Now a team of scientists led by NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) have joined the fray by creating what they call the ‘Beacon in the Galaxy’.
https://www.supercluster.com/editorial/ … vilization

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-06-10 11:02:01)

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,175

Re: Fermi Paradox? Possible answer?

The Paradox of Fermi’s Paradox

https://thedebrief.org/the-paradox-of-fermis-paradox/