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#26 2020-11-28 19:20:12

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,608

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut .... the article at the link below is surprisingly upbeat, for a web site devoted to the fossil fuel industry ...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/hydr … 00189.html

The premise of the article is that communities who have served the coal industry for many decades may be particularly well situated to provide green hydrogen.

The key points in the article are about the quality of the work force, the nature of the industrial infrastructure, and perhaps most importantly, established water rights.

For the author(s) of this piece to have put it together, I ** presume ** there must have been some musing going on in places where such ideas could develop into action plans.   I sure hope so!

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-11-28 19:20:38)

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#27 2020-11-28 19:31:42

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,345

Re: Climbing out of poverty

Most coal mining's must vent the gas build ups that form from under ground sources in explosive and deadly types. So why not make use of that vented gas as a source for others to get cheap energy from.

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#28 2020-11-28 20:41:15

kbd512
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

SpaceNut,

Those of us in the oil business have been asking that question for a long time.  We can flare off gases from oil wells that release all the unwanted byproducts into our atmosphere that they contain, but by law we're not allow to collect or burn it in a combustion engine so that someone gets the benefit of that wasted energy.  One of my colleagues who worked in various African countries once remarked that it's funny that in Africa where he lived, natural gas is absurdly expensive, but the offshore oil platforms routinely flare off enough gas to power the entire country.  He couldn't buy any natural gas to cook his dinner with, but on the rigs they were flaring off enough gas to power the entire city he lived in, every single day.  You can thank all the environmental regulators for that.  Good intentions frequently have a habit of paving the road to hell.  Instead, they continue to burn wood or coal or human feces instead of much cleaner, if still less than "perfect", natural gas.

Pick your poison.  There's a cost associated with every energy decision, even if certain people try to white wash what's actually going on.  Here's a wild and crazy thought.  Every environmental regulation should require a practicality consideration that weighs the human cost that the regulation will impose upon everyone living with it.  My take on this, is that we shouldn't allow perfectionists or utopian idealists to make environmental regulations.

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#29 2020-11-28 22:16:09

tahanson43206
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Posts: 7,608

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut re #27

The premise of the article is that coal will no longer be mined.

There would presumably be little gas to recover.

This topic is about Climbing out of poverty ... The idea (as I understand the article) is to provide employment for folks who've shown the work ethic of the miner for decades, while putting idle factory assets (land and buildings) into service.  The key (again as I understand the article) is to pump green energy into regions which cannot generate their own.

There is a need to improve electric service into the potential work sites.  That would be a national investment that would yield returns in the form of tax payments on the plus side, and reduced support payments on the other, since the people in the areas under discussion are used to hard work and prefer it to idleness.

(th)

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#30 2020-11-29 19:49:39

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,345

Re: Climbing out of poverty

Here is another factoid of time in that Bill that could help Black farmers reclaim millions of acres 'a step in the right direction']black-farmers-01-ht-llr-201129_1606588236142_hpMain_16x9_992.jpg

At their peak in 1920, there were over 949,000 Black farmers in America, according to a 2017 report released by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. That number has now plummeted to roughly 45,000 Black-owned farms.

Now, Black farm owners makeup a mere 1.3% of the country’s 3.4 million total farmers. In comparison, approximately 95% of rural land across the country is currently owned by white farmers.

So did the change from a country agricultural living to the city urban density cause the change that we see in not being able to provide for ones self....

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#31 2020-11-30 07:22:44

tahanson43206
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Posts: 7,608

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut re #30

So did the change from a country agricultural living to the city urban density cause the change that we see in not being able to provide for ones self....

This may be one of those times when you post something to stimulate discussion.

The history of how non-Europeans have been treated by Europeans is well documented.

It started with the landing of the first black slave in 1619.

Slavery reached a peak when there were nearly 4 million slaves in the United States during the Civil War.

Then Europeans changed from outright slavery to Jim Crow, which had the nearly same effect.

During slavery, land ownership was prohibited.
During slavery, marriage was prohibited.
During slavery, having a family was prohibited or at best tolerated with no guarantees.
During slavery, education was prohibited and actively discouraged.
Voting was prohibited.

Since slavery ...
Land ownership has been actively discouraged.
Education has been actively discouraged
Loans have been denied and revoked at will.
Voting has been actively discouraged, and that remains true to this day.

Of course you knew all that, so I'm sure your question was intended to stimulate discussion.

As the Union armies advanced through the Confederacy, thousands of slaves were freed each day until nearly all (approximately 3.9 million, according to the 1860 Census) were freed by July 1865. While the Proclamation had freed most slaves as a war measure, it had not made slavery illegal.
Part of: American Civil War
Start date: January 1, 1863

Emancipation Proclamation - Wikipediaen.wikipedia

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-11-30 07:26:12)

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#32 2020-11-30 12:37:20

kbd512
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

tahanson43206,

The Democrats really hate people with black or brown skin, but some of us already knew that.

America actually ran out of bombs to drop on all those poor brown people in the Middle East under former President Obama.

The Democrats run education and they've done everything in their power to block school choice legislation to prevent minorities from obtaining vouchers so that the parents of poor minority kids, rather than the Democrat Party, are allowed to decide where their kids attend school.

The Democrats crafted the legislation that handed out home loans to people they knew could never pay them back, so the minorities who were scammed by banks were lead to believe that they could afford more than they actually could, and lost their homes as a result.

The Democrats are responsible for a welfare state that actively discourages the formation of nuclear families.  The ultimate result has been an endless cycle of poverty and violence for poor minorities.

The Democrats support abortion because most of the babies who get murdered have black or brown skin.  Planned Parenthood founder, Margaret Sanger, was as racist as they come, and someone who routinely interacted with kkk members, who wholeheartedly supported her racist eugenics policies.  She gained a cult following amongst the nazis, so she even had racist groupies.

Preident-elect Biden told black people that they ain't black if they don't vote for an old white racist and segregationist who railed against desegregation because he didn't think his children should have to go to school with black kids.

The Democrats could legalize all the illegal immigrants who come into this country if they wanted all people living in America to have equal standing before the law, but they never have, even when they have the Presidency and a super majority in both the House and Senate.  There were more deportations under former President Obama than President Trump.

Europeans didn't have one thing to do with segregation in America.  That was entirely a political machination of Democrats.  The nazis purloined their racial superiority screed from our illustrious Democrat Party because they weren't smart enough to come up with such evil ideas on their own.

Black people started voting for Democrats in the 1920s because they were promised jobs, so they overlooked all the kkk members who were Democrats on the promise of having some kind of job to go to.

The living conditions of everyday Americans will improve when Democrats give up on their racist and segregationist ideas.  Until then, living conditions will continue to deteriorate until we have another revolution.  Slowly but surely, minorities who were previously Democrat voters have been returning to the Republican Party.

Last but certainly not least, most Native American tribes and Africans engaged in slavery for thousands of years before the US ever existed.

They still taught history when I went to college, but now our revisionists are trying to erase our history so we can all experience the Orwellian future their dark little hearts desire most.

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#33 2020-11-30 17:55:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,345

Re: Climbing out of poverty

I dare you to say those same things about these same but different roof top farming in an urban setting....

detroit-gm-urban-garden.jpg

Regent-Park-Urban-Rooftop-Garden-2015.jpg

What you should have replied with is yes the ending of the slave indenturing was a part of the white farmer slow but steadily lose but it was playing field that was equal at that point in time of course with a greater number of white versus colored farms. Thats held by facts of the time. But its not why we have less farmers of either color as you forget that cities did not have places for farming within them. That packaging plants to store foods was started that also drove the people to the cities as it was easier to pick a can up of the shelf than it was to grow, harvest and can the items for later as it was on the farms.

So the slow and steady lose of farms was due to its hard work that does not always get what is deserve for the goods created from doing so. Now none of this was racist or political nor for the mugging and thugging groups that could not see the right thing to do in the equation.

So back again to the roof top its about getting the skills needed to learn a whole new group of students what? To be able to feed oneself....

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#34 2020-11-30 19:44:15

kbd512
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

SpaceNut,

My entire line of commentary has nothing at all to do with farmers or farming.  I simply don't care at all about who's farming what or where.  Posting pictures of people tending plants with hand tools, irrespective of what they look like, seems to completely ignore the fact that a technologically advanced society shouldn't require that anyone spend a moment of their time tending plants.  America is no longer a plantation society.  That way of life died before I was born.  It's time to move on.  You're not going to help poor people by throwing money at their problems when money was never the root cause of their problems.  Waving some money under someone's nose, because they happen to be poor and/or a minority, isn't going make slavery or Jim Crow go away.  A morally bankrupt political party did that, yet they're still allowed to operate within our borders and continue to brainwash people into believing things that are objectively false.

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#35 2020-12-01 19:38:57

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 23,345

Re: Climbing out of poverty

My take on the article was to not go there but to look at the other causes to why we have a generation that can not feed themselves and the fact that it was done on a roof top in the cities means no heavy equipment is possible. That would make it much like early mars with growing of food until we can bring such heavy payloads to mars.

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#36 2020-12-01 22:36:30

kbd512
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

SpaceNut,

To be clear, I take no issue whatsoever with the profession of farming, but at the end of the day I want the net output of our educational system to be people who can think for and feed themselves, no matter their chosen profession.  I do not want them to be dependent upon any government entity for their next meal.  I think it's great that we're teaching young people how to tend plants, but that's a hobby for most people, much like interpretive dance is for anyone who's not one of the best interpretive dancers on the planet.

You wanna know why so many youngsters are basically failing at becoming adults?

It's because they've been taught utter nonsense by people they trusted who clearly don't have their best interests in mind.

You know what I tell my children?

The same thing my parents told me.  I don't want them to be "just like me".  I want them to learn and think for themselves and then decide for themselves what is most important in life, what's worth fighting for, what kind of education they want to have, who they choose to love.  In short, I want strong and independent thinkers who can persevere through the trials of life with a modicum of stoicism and humility about the results, no matter what life throws at them.  I simply can't teach them everything, so eventually I want them to become capable and willing to teach themselves.  If they never, ever give up, no matter how hard it gets, then I will have succeeded beyond my wildest dreams.

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#37 2020-12-04 22:16:26

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,608

Re: Climbing out of poverty

This is for SpaceNut ....

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/it-s … ket-newtab

The article at the link above is worth your taking the time to look at it.

Not everyone in the forum is going to approve of the idea described, but I've heard of other experiments along these lines.

At the rate the United States is going, we're likely to have many millions of people needing this service soon.

(th)

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#38 2020-12-05 07:41:32

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,608

Re: Climbing out of poverty

Here's another post for SpaceNut ...

Bill Gates is far and away one of the most prolific job creators who ever lived. 

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/bill … 58654.html

Jonathan Shieber
Thu, December 3, 2020 1:39 PM ET
Bill Gates, the co-founder of Microsoft and one of the world's richest men and most prolific philanthropists, has just released a broad new plan on how the U.S. could take the lead in the fight against climate change.

"[We] need to revolutionize the world’s physical economy—and that will take, among other things, a dramatic infusion of ingenuity, funding, and focus from the federal government. No one else has the resources to drive the research we need," Gates writes.

With a new Biden administration set to take over the reins of government, the timing for Gates' suggestions couldn't be better. The outgoing Trump administration was singularly opposed to combating climate change, rolling back regulations, withdrawing from international agreements on climate change mitigation and sweeping aside science in favor of specious arguments from the industries that had the most to lose from a recognition of the threats of anthropogenic climate change.

If elected, Biden commits to rejoin climate accord US just abandoned

Gates calls for a dramatic $25 billion boost in spending that would bring clean energy research spending to $35 billion a year (in line with medical spending from the government). Gates notes that this could lead to the creation of more than 370,000 jobs while boosting a clean-energy agenda

All that research should lead to creation of private companies that can compete on the global stage, and help to increase the flow of goods and services that originate in the US.

Along this line of thinking ... a few posts back, either in this topic or perhaps another, a post showed evidence that ** someone ** is thinking about how to bring modern technology employment to coal-belt regions of the US ... The idea (as I remember it) is to send power collected in wind and solar farms out West in the US, to former coal producing regions where it can be used to produce hydrogen and many other useful products for which hydrogen is a precursor.

(th)

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#39 2020-12-05 16:11:18

kbd512
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Posts: 4,711

Re: Climbing out of poverty

tahanson43206,

Maybe you could tell me why the US needs to give billions of dollars to the Europeans and Chinese for them to clean up their own pollution.  That's what the "Paris Climate Accords" truly are.  It was yet another massive transfer of wealth to people who have their own money and don't need any more money.  Maybe you should read into the language of those agreements before deciding whether or not supporting them is a laudable activity.

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#40 2020-12-05 17:11:18

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,345

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For Biden job creation that are not part time or service orientated is going to hard to do as we move forward.

For me I am looking at property utilization for power for home use, making or buying a hybrid vehicle for single occupant use.

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#41 2020-12-05 20:12:01

tahanson43206
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Posts: 7,608

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For kbd512 re #39

Thanks for calling attention to the Climate Accords ... I don't know enough about them to comment one way or another.

What I was trying to do with the quote about Bill Gates is to encourage investment in US workers to compete in the global arena.

For SpaceNut ... best wishes for a flow of good ideas to increase income and to reduce expenses.

(th)

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#42 2020-12-05 21:14:22

kbd512
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Posts: 4,711

Re: Climbing out of poverty

tahanson43206,

How are we supposed to do that with $15/hr minimum wages and environmental regulations that other countries don't have to follow, all while we pay those countries for the privilege to continue to pollute at levels that American industry is not allowed to pollute at?

The cost of doing business is drastically higher here in the US, but somehow we're going to be cost-competitive with a country like China that uses literal slave labor?

It's not as if all other industrialized countries are technologically stuck in the Stone Age while here in America we have magic wands.

Regarding the Paris Climate Accords, why are we dumping billions of dollars into an international slush fund instead of using the people and resources within the borders of each industrialized nation and doing something like technology sharing?

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#43 2020-12-05 21:50:25

tahanson43206
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Posts: 7,608

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For kbd512 re #42

The answer is straightforward: Leadership and Teamwork

Without ** both ** of those, failure is certain.

For our International readers ... Saturday is "Football Day" in the United States.  College teams start playing at noon and they play until midnight (if you take time zones into account).

kbd512's questions (all reasonable ones of course) in Post #42 reminds me of the situation of a team that is behind 30 points at the half ...

In the locker room, the players can list all the reasons why they will lose the game, including the monsters on the other team, their superior quarterback and agile runners, the superior coaching and the special diet they must be getting to have such physical stamina.

It is up to the coach to overcome all those psychological burdens, or he might as well concede the game right then.

So it is with the capitalist market system in general, and with the US version of it in particular.  We got fat and lazy during the easy times after World War II, when the entire nation pulled together to conquer two very capable foes, ** plus ** the lingering effects of prolonged financial depression and other ailments of the society.

Now we are facing some headwinds, many of which are of our own making.  We'll either succeed or we will fail.

If we succeed, it will be because we somehow mustered Leadership and Teamwork.

Otherwise, our competitors will sweep the field, and President Xi is a formidable coach with a robust team that seems to be playing well at the moment, as just one example.

For what it's worth, I understand the success of the founder of Alibaba has caused the political actors in China to trim his sails more than a little.  That is the Chinese equivalent of regulation to prevent destruction of the environment by our sometimes overeager capitalists.

The next couple of decades will show if the United States is an also ran, or if it can somehow pull itself out of its current tailspin.

I am (quite literally) betting on the United States, but I am by no means sanguine about the future.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-12-05 21:50:52)

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#44 2020-12-06 02:15:47

kbd512
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Posts: 4,711

Re: Climbing out of poverty

tahanson43206,

This isn't a psychological problem.  It's a basic math and physics problem.  You know, the ones that liberals are so terrible at solving because they can't be overcome by any amount of beliefs or emotions or ideology.

President Xi is a tin pot dictator in charge of a rapidly aging population.  His communist party tries random things to see if something they try will actually stimulate growth, but it never does, because there are no "magic wand" solutions to a simple demographics problem.  They've built entire cities that nobody lives in because of nonsense like that.  The communists didn't "trim the sails" of the founder of Alibaba- they merely stole from him to try to make up for their own inability to come up with economically viable solutions.  The communists are terrified of anyone who might show the rest of the populace what real economic success and leadership actually looks like because it de-justifies the existence of a malevolent power-mad dictatorship.

I will never understand what makes people who are so creative believe that they can overcome basic math and physics problems with any amount of leadership or teamwork.  You have "Widget X", it costs "Amount Y" to produce.  If you have to pay your employees "Amount Z", and "Amount Z" is equal to $15 in the "Country A", but it's equal to $1 in "Country C", then no amount of magical thinking will ever overcome the fact that it costs an additional $14 dollars per hour for a worker to make widgets in your country.  This is not a question of ideology or emotion.  This is a question of, "Can you figure out who you're buying "Widget X" from if that widget was made in "Country A", where it costs an additional $14 over the same widget made in "Country C"?  Business people don't need more than a few milliseconds to arrive at the answer after reading the question.  Creative types may never be able to answer the question.  Why?  Critical thinking skills are nearly DEAD in America.

Facing "headwinds"?  America is trying to sail in the exact opposite direction that the wind is blowing.  There's a reason no successful sailors do that- because it doesn't work!  If you're a sailor who relies upon the wind to sail to another port, there are no "creative solutions" that can overcome that fundamental problem.  It's something that you "just don't do" because "it just doesn't work".  Period.

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#45 2020-12-06 11:05:48

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,345

Re: Climbing out of poverty

The negative profit problem is compounded by those that say we have always done it that way and refuse to change.
I saw this in the automation era of the 80's and 90's where manufacturers could and would not automate assembly lines and production as it meant changing the jobs that people would be doing. So instead there solution was to ship the manufacturing over sea's to any country where labor and pollution laws would allow for a means to make more profits as it do not need to change the american jobs at all but to remove them all together.

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#46 2020-12-06 12:36:43

tahanson43206
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Re: Climbing out of poverty

This topic has the potential to collect solutions.  There are plenty of people alive today who can identify problems, and event write well about them.

What this topic calls for (by it's title) is identification of solutions, and improvements in people's lives. 

The playing field is full of challenges, including entire nations who do not play by commonly understood rules of fair play.  The solution set will include two things: Leadership and Teamwork. 

SpaceNut ... Job Creators are the people who are going to lead in the economy going forward.  Job Holders are going to contribute to success, by helping Job Creators to manage the flow of ideas, energy, materials and ultimately finished goods to customers around the world.

There is another topic where problems can be identified and discussed.

I'd like this topic to begin to live up to it's promise.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-12-06 12:36:59)

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#47 2020-12-07 17:39:00

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,345

Re: Climbing out of poverty

5834300edd0895797b8b46b4?width=964

Still on the increase How $98 trillion of household wealth in America is distributed: "It's very depressing"
The poorest Americans, people in the bottom 20%, wouldn't get any. On average, they are more than $6,000 in debt.

So which states exhibit the high level of disperity
states-with-the-highest-income-inequality-map.png


Wealth gap widening for more than 70% of global population, researchers find

Where are we as compared to the worlds populations
Wealth5-4ac5.png

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#48 2020-12-07 19:06:57

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,608

Re: Climbing out of poverty

For SpaceNut re 47 ....

Some Job Creators become wealthy.

Some wealthy people are job creators.

One thing I'm sure of ... no Job Holder is in the top tier of the charts you showed us.

I'd even bet that even wealthy people who might have started out as Job Holders have become Job Creators, because they've invested in companies that do create jobs.

In short, if you (reader of this forum) want to become wealthy, the best pathway is by becoming a job creator.

(th)

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#49 2020-12-07 19:33:41

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,345

Re: Climbing out of poverty

The rich are self employed job holders and proprietor in that they are trying to hold onto what they have, invest it to make more but they do not get a hourly wage unless they chose to manage what they live on....

Food security is an issue to which the simple skill to grow food could help to get you a little closer to not be in poverty as we struggle when we do not have he money to do Online grocery shopping is growing, but millions of Americans on food stamps are being left behind

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#50 2020-12-08 00:22:31

kbd512
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Posts: 4,711

Re: Climbing out of poverty

SpaceNut,

You know, the more I think about this problem, the more I wonder why every person who lives in America can't have a million dollars, because with that amount of money there shouldn't be any reasonable thing in life that you can't have, be it health care or a reasonably nice house and a reasonably nice car.  We just gave 3 trillion dollars to the richest people in America, who clearly didn't need the money, so if the Federal Reserve can print dollars like they're going out of style for those people, then they should be able to print a few extras for the rest of us, who only want our next meal, a roof over our heads, and a job.

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