A second Kuiper Belt instead of planet 9?

Void · 2016-08-31 12:57:55

The article supposes a second Kuiper Belt is more likely than a Super Earth or Ice Giant, and I think that is good news:
http://earthsky.org/space/is-planet-9-a … uiper-belt

A single large planet would be scientifically interesting, but another belt with minor planets, and who knows maybe something like Mars (Just maybe) would be more useful, if humans become spacefaring.

So, some of the minor planets (And moons with atmospheres).
Ceres, Pluto, Titan, Triton, and a bunch more further out.

For materials, it seems the surfaces generally involve lighter substances, as you go out further, so getting heavy elements is an issue. The hopes are that the early solar system was a mix master, so some rocky objects were stirred into the outer solar system. Barring that, it could be hoped that some minor planets were hit by objects that caused much of the lighter substances to be ejected in part from the minor planet, and so reducing the "Overburden".

Another method which might work, is to drill shafts through the ice to the rocky cores or oceans below. The shafts would have to be filled with a fluid such as a temperature regulated oil with a similar average specific gravity as the icy overburden. I think only robots could navigate the shafts, and the possible ocean below. Of course the purpose would be to obtain core minerals. (And to explore).

A possible case of this is Haumea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haumea

I would imagine if "Starshot" were actually created, there might be robotic fly-by's of some of these worlds, at a high speed. Why not use your lasers to do this as well.

As a linkage to a possible eventual mission to Proxima b, this pathway makes sense to me. The tasks are still enormous, but by scale are more reasonable.

Ceres is too warm. I don't think there is enough of what is needed, to build an atmosphere, and if you did, I think the potential to retain it would be a far reach.

I am hoping that a minor planet can be found, that is far enough from the sun, so that an artificial magnetic field can retain an atmosphere. It is not entirely out of the question as well, that a fossil magnetic field might exist on some of these worlds. (But if they were hit by a large object, perhaps not).

So, of course a very good energy source at the minor planet would be needed. Fusion, or something else?
At the very least, it could be imagined that Hydrogen bombs included with a robot could burrow down on one portion of such a world, repeatedly and provide a heat source that would be relatively steady, but not where you are going to have mine shafts.

As for getting to them, it is a similar problem to Proxima b.
Generation ships, or pushing a ship to a very high speed and slowing it down, and energy intensive approach.

If the quick speedy route is used, then this link contains a possible way to do electrodynamic braking, and possibly some limited degree of maneuver, using tethers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether

So, good practice before attempting to do interstellar travel, and maybe a spot to start from.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-31 13:34:49)

Void · 2016-08-31 21:19:08

We have had much conversation about similar things before, but it might be good to have a teething ring, for those who want to jump to another star system, when this is all so young to us.

I am going to play a game, and see what happens. I've done this before.

Should we find a suitable dwarf planet, I suggest that it could be prepared for human presence by a cataclysmic impact, or perhaps something more bite sized that that. I suggest that should our ability to see become very good, perhaps we can use the super lasers that are proposed for star missions to nudge a second object to impact such a minor planet, to create a persisting body of melt water.

I do not hold strong hopes of maintaining an atmosphere on such a globe, at least at first, but perhaps someday with methods such as Karov's H.W.M, it might be possible.

Anyway, the catch is can you pick out a very remote object, and nudge it with a laser?

Last edited by Void (2016-08-31 21:23:12)

tahanson43206 · 2024-11-05 20:10:53

The story at the "link" below is about Planet 9.

I understand this topic is about something ** other ** than planet 9.

planet-nine-kuiper-belt-latest-evidence

The story is published by CNN ... I do not have a subscription but if a NewMars member has a subscription, please post a bit of the article

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-11-06 13:38:08

The CNN story is behind a paywall. Today I found another version:

https://jang.com.pk/en/24577-is-planet- … overy-news

Sci-Tech
Is planet 9 back? Astronomers close to major solar system discovery
Astronomer Mike Brown, ‘who killed Pluto’ discovers a small world called Eris in the Kuiper Belt
by Web Desk
November 06, 2024
Astronomer Mike Brown, ‘who killed Pluto’ discovers a small world called Eris in the Kuiper Belt
Astronomer Mike Brown, ‘who killed Pluto’ discovers a small world called Eris in the Kuiper Belt
The solar system has nine planets, but in 2006 the International Astronomical Union declared Pluto a dwarf planet, making the total discovered planets count eight.
But recently astronomers claimed that they are on the brink of making a historic discovery that could restore the solar system to its former nine-planet status.
According to CNN, Mike Brown, a professor of planetary astronomy who is known as “the man who killed Pluto,” discovered a small world called Eris in the Kuiper Belt.
The Kuiper Belt is 50 times farther from the sun than Earth, which astronomers believe was formed by the leftovers from the formation of the solar system.
As objects in the belt are really far from the sun, it is very difficult to spot them. For more than a decade, astronomers have been searching for a planet in that area because they believe that other nearby objects are acting strangely.
Malena Rice, an assistant professor of astronomy at Yale University, said, “If we find another planet, that is a really big deal. It could completely reshape our understanding of the solar system and of other planetary systems and how we fit into that context. It’s really exciting, there is a lot of potential to learn a tremendous amount about the universe.”
“There are definitely full-blown skeptics about Planet Nine, it’s kind of a contentious topic. Some people feel very passionately that it exists. Some people feel very passionately that it doesn’t. There’s a lot of debate in trying to pin down what it is and whether it’s there. But that’s the hallmark of a really interesting topic because otherwise people wouldn’t have heated opinions about it,” she added.
The mystery of Planet X or Planet Nine could be solved after the launch of a new telescope capable of surveying the entire available sky, which is scheduled for late 2025. Until then, the researchers think they have found strong evidence to believe that the hidden planet exists.
p

There's not a lot to go on beside a proposed name for an object.

However, news of a new telescope is welcome.

Void · 2024-11-30 10:52:35

I feel that this person has some interesting things to say: https://www.youtube.com/c/SabineHossenfelder/videos
Quote:

Sabine Hossenfelder
@SabineHossenfelder
•
1.55M subscribers
•
708 videos
As simple as possible, but not any simpler! Science and technology updates and summaries. No hype, no spin, no tip-toeing around inconvenient truths. Currently 5 videos a week (Tue-Wed-Thu and Sat-Sun). Early access for channel members.
...more
patreon.com/Sabine
and 4 more links

This article caught my attention: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQm6JC4ruEk
Quote:

We’ve Been Searching For Aliens All Wrong, Researchers Say (and they have a point)
Sabine Hossenfelder
1.55M subscribers

Pause to view again......

Things that are beyond the Heliopause.

Well the Heliopause is not symmetrical or constant.

So, some worlds or clouds may sometimes be in or out of a Heliopause.

When inside the Heliopause, then the primary energy source is a star, in most situations.
When outside, I suspect that things like Deuterium, Helium 3, Lithium, and radioactive isotopes such as Aluminum-26 will be available to power something, perhaps new stars or a civilization.

A very very advanced civilization might be able to fuse regular Hydrogen all the way up to Iron, but anything near us struggles to do lesser fusions and fissions.

A world outside of the Heliopause may or may not be locked to an orbit of our star or another star.

Somehow it seems that radioactive substances make it all the way to Earth in spite of the Heliopause. That is a curious mystery to me.

https://phys.org/news/2023-02-radioacti … rnova.html
Quote:

February 20, 2023
Editors' notes
Radioactive isotopes reach Earth by surfing supernova blast waves, scientists discover
by University of Hertfordshire

So, in outer solar system beyond the Heliosphere and also in Rogue Worlds, it may be possible to have ice shell worlds with oceans powered by a continuing or intermittent supply of radioactive materials.

Beyond that worlds Mars size or larger, (Up to a point) may become Steppenwolf Worlds, with atmospheres of concentrates of Deuterium, and Helium 3, over perhaps a Nitrogen based Atmosphere. It is my notion that these could have Oxygen in their atmospheres, as if life is consuming the products of radiolysis, then by incorporating Hydrogen and Carbon into their bodies, the life will leave an excess of Oxygen which may or may not then be absorbed into rocks.

Here is one notion about a Steppenwolf Planet: https://arxiv.org/abs/1102.1108

So, if such worlds existed and maintained an atmosphere enriched with materials heavier than regular Hydrogen, then a civilization interested in fusion power could find what they may want there. The planet may partially warm itself from radioactive substances falling in from space, and they would also have Deuterium, Helium 3, and perhaps Lithium. And of course, the infalling substances such as Aluminum-26.

How Aluminum-26 is created:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-26
Quote:

Occurrence in the interstellar medium
The distribution of 26Al in Milky Way
The gamma ray emission from the decay of aluminium-26 at 1809 keV was the first observed gamma emission from the Galactic Center. The observation was made by the HEAO-3 satellite in 1984.[4][5]
26Al is mainly produced in supernovae ejecting many radioactive nuclides in the interstellar medium. The isotope is believed to be crucial for the evolution of planetary objects, providing enough heat to melt and differentiate accreting planetesimals. This is known to have happened during the early history of the asteroids 1 Ceres and 4 Vesta.[6][7][8] 26Al has been hypothesized to have played a role in the unusual shape of Saturn's moon Iapetus. Iapetus is noticeably flattened and oblate, indicating that it rotated significantly faster early in its history, with a rotation period possibly as short as 17 hours. Heating from 26Al could have provided enough heat in Iapetus to allow it to conform to this rapid rotation period, before the moon cooled and became too rigid to relax back into hydrostatic equilibrium.[9]
The presence of aluminium monofluoride molecule as the 26Al isotopologue in CK Vulpeculae, which is an unknown type of nova, constitutes the first solid evidence of an extrasolar radioactive molecule.[10]

So, actually interstellar civilizations may prefer to move quietly though the darkness of VOID! Oooooooh!

Ending Pending

.

Last edited by Void (2024-11-30 11:31:32)

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#1 2016-08-31 12:57:55

A second Kuiper Belt instead of planet 9?

#2 2016-08-31 21:19:08

Re: A second Kuiper Belt instead of planet 9?

#3 2024-11-05 20:10:53

Re: A second Kuiper Belt instead of planet 9?

#4 2024-11-06 13:38:08

Re: A second Kuiper Belt instead of planet 9?

#5 2024-11-30 10:52:35

Re: A second Kuiper Belt instead of planet 9?

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