Chickens

RobertDyck · 2016-12-04 22:09:17

New Horizons was a tiny spacecraft launched on a big rocket. It didn't use an ion engine, although NASA seriously looked at doing that. It just used a conventional rocket: big-ass rocket with tiny payload. Result was 78 days from Earth to Mars. Of course it didn't include any means to slow or stop. It wasn't able to enter Mars orbit, or the orbit of any planet. If a spacecraft launched that way and found braking rockets failed, then they would be heading out of the solar system. Just like New Horizons. Not just to Pluto, but past Pluto, into interstellar space.

The 6-month transit trajectory favoured by Robert Zubrin requires 10% more propellant than the minimum propellant trajectory. But it's also the only trajectory that gives you a free return to Earth. All Apollo spacecraft were launched on a free return trajectory to the Moon. That means if something went wrong and rocket engines failed, the spacecraft would be carried by the Moon's gravity around the far side of the Moon, then straight back to Earth. No propellant, no rocket at all. It required rocket thrust to leave that trajectory and enter Lunar orbit. It's a good thing they did, because Apollo 13 had to use it. A free return trajectory from Mars is more complicated, because both planets orbit the Sun. Instead of a U-turn around the Moon, it has to turn to head toward where Earth will be.

But I supposed it could be used for an unmanned mission with just livestock and robots.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-08-11 11:58:50

Robert-

I somehow don't think the robotic astronauts will object to a bit of chickenshit!

Another comment here: selection of a breed; some breeds of chickens are superb egg layers, but are not good meat birds. The chicken normally found at the supermarket is the Cornish-Rock hybrid, a meat bird. They are normally preoccupied with eating over reproduction; they almost continuously have their beaks down in the feed, eating and shitting, with time out to drink. They generally take 12 weeks from hatch to slaughter. For good egg production, many chicken ranchers like the Plymouth Rock or Rhode Island Red for brown eggs. They don't get too big, so are not a combination breed. I've raised Plymouth Rocks several times, but they are also somewhat cannibalistic and engage in pecking too much. Buff Orpingtons have become very popular among small farm poultry hobbyists, and are an excellent producer of brown eggs. I've raised them in preference to Plymouth Rocks or Rhode Island Reds. I've also raised Black Austrolorps and Light Brahmas. The Light Brahmas are a great combination breed, since they get REALLY BIG, as mature birds.

So, in summation, I believe that chickens are high on my list for early Mars agriculture, right after the aquaculture of Tilapia, and before swine.

elderflower · 2017-08-11 13:37:23

Chickens usually get a limestone grit supplement. I haven't heard that limestone is common on Mars. Can they get what they need to make eggshells from other sources?
I suppose this applies to all birds as they all lay hardshelled eggs.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-08-11 13:52:53

The most commonly used source of calcium for poultry is oyster shells. Dense, very easily handled for the weight.

IanM · 2017-08-11 13:57:23

We could do that, but then we'd need oysters for the oyster shells. We could likely easily grow them in a hydroponic environment. (Growing them would also give us mother-of-pearl for early Martian jewelry.)

RobertDyck · 2017-08-11 17:23:45

Uhhh... To grow oysters on Mars they will need calcium in the water. The element has to come from somewhere.

MGS identified calcite and dolomite using its instruments from space. Those are minerals of limestone, but the minerals were mixed with everything else on the surface. APXS instrument on Mars Sojourner identified calcium and magnesium in rocks and soil samples. The trick is extract and concentrate calcium from Mars rockets, present in a form chickens can consume.

louis · 2017-08-11 18:00:00

One thing this thread demonstrates is that raising chickens is a hugely complex (and risky) business...and not one that an early colony on Mars should take on board when there is no need to since vegetable protein can be grown easily and the colonists can supplement that with a few imported "meat treats" from Earth.

We should be focussed rather on this sort of approach:

http://impossiblefoods.com/

Get all the satisfaction of meat without the bother of having to raise animals in controlled life-support environments.

Once Mars has been terraformed, of course the settlers could revert to animal farming but by then I suspect we'll have perfectly acceptable "lab meat" grown from stem cells in any case.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-08-11 19:53:28

It doesn't really take that much Oyster Calcium for the entire flock,, so it could easily be brought from Earth and used in transit as shielding material. A single 50 pound bag would last a flock of 50 chickens for nearly 6 months. Then the chickenshit would be an excellent soil amendment, which would add more useful minerals to the regolith soil.

My vote would be for chickens, if we are considering domestic food production. Chickens not only produce meat and eggs, but are useful in cultivating gardens through their scratching of the soil. They are mobile manure spreaders as well. They will eat portions of plants we humans find inedible: leaves and stems. They are highly efficient at converting their food to meat and eggs, with a feed efficiency around 3.
Second on my list would be swine.

SpaceNut · 2020-10-10 17:41:01

Oldfart1939 wrote:

Chickens should have no problem adapting to reduced gravity. I did some research on chicken breeds, and there are several choices. Rhode Island Reds and Barred Plymouth Rock breeds are good egg producers and make a good stewing bird as they go out of egg production due to age. Both breeds lay up to 280-300 eggs per (Earth) year, and based on the USDA standard egg weight of 2 oz. for a large egg, that's between 35 and 37.5 pounds of eggs. If processed feed is fed the birds, they consume between 3 and 3.5 times the egg produced in feed annually.
Eggs are possibly the easiest to produce high quality protein available to colonists. Then eat the chicken after a year of egg production. Another 7-8 pounds of good food.
A generalized standard for animal feeding is 2-3% of the body weight per day, although in egg production it could be a bit more, but based on a 7 pound laying hen, that calculates to about 75 pounds of mixed grain. If we allow grass to grow in the agricultural areas, that will go down significantly as they will prefer green feed. The chicken manure will be very beneficial to growing plants, since it also contains Uric Acid.
As a P.S. here, I've raised a lot of chickens in my lifetime.

SpaceNut · 2020-10-11 09:41:33

I have several free range neighbors along the road I live on that do the birds and eggs but for mars we will need to have tailored pens for them.

Martian Settlers May Need Chickens To Conquer The Red Planet

tahanson43206 · 2020-10-12 04:56:20

For Oldfart1939 and SpaceNut ....

RobertDyck's Large Ship topic provides a sturdy framework upon which the two of you could develop a vision of a chicken farm in LEO, to supply food for expeditions heading out from Earth, or arriving back and low on supplies.

More importantly for the Mars project .... If the design for a chicken farm holds to the standard RobertDyck is suggesting, of Mars gravity and Mars habitat atmosphere (lower pressure overall but maintain Earth normal Oxygen pressure) then such a facility would provide much needed data for Mars expedition planners.

RobertDyck is proposing a habitat of 19 meters width, and 238 meters length.

If you had that much space to work with, how would you organize it to deliver the optimum performance over time?

What I observe in local chicken farms (visible from the highway) is that they operate in batch mode. A given barn will be loaded with chicks and that "class" is allowed to grow to market size. Is that a model that makes sense for LEO, or would a continuous process make more sense?

Fresh eggs would be a luxury for folks in LEO and beyond. It's difficult (for me at least) to understand or envision the economic transactions involved, but SpaceNut just reported on shipment/delivery of special treats for ISS astronauts in time for Thankgiving, so perhaps the economics challenges can be solved.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-10-12 07:09:28

While there will be plenty of room the issues is gravity on a spinning radius changes quickly as you go inward away from the outer surface. Keeping all of the bird related contaminants to a minimal will be quite an automated controlling system. One of which we do not have any in space experience with.

Things as simple as controlling where the feed is going to be problematic to keep in the trays as they peck at it as its going to become air borne from the motion of the birds eating. Water trays will be another issues for how to keep them hydrated. Its not like a hamster water bottle for them.

Sure a vacuum will handle some of this from feathers to feed but at what level as the floor is the outer diameter while the ceiling where this would happen is the inner height of the cage area. I suspect that an air lock scheme would be needed to keep the remainder of the ship contaminant free with the crew member entering it with some sort of suit with hood to limit bring it back into the habitat space with them.

tahanson43206 · 2020-10-12 09:02:22

For SpaceNut re #37

Thank you for picking up on this initiative ....

One suggestion I would like to offer to those who follow your lead here, is to think of this as a dedicated habitat, not associated in any way with the human habitat RobertDyck is working on.

Your observations about management of feed and water, waste and air are helpful, and each deserves careful thought.

Another observation I would note in your post is the use of cages.

The large barns I've observed do not have cages at all. Instead, the flock has freedom of movement within the entire structure.

On Earth, fans move air from the front of the building to the back. That is a luxury not available in a space habitat chicken farm, nor would it be available in a Mars version of the farm.

Management of the air inside the habitat would require (I'm assuming) systems similar to the ones that are needed for humans, but (here I am guessing) perhaps they would require ** more ** capability due to the undisciplined nature of bird waste elimination habits.

In the movie "Passengers" the designers imagined floor cleaning robots that moved about under (what I assume was) an AI controller, quickly tackling messes the hero made. Meeting the needs of a flock of chickens in a space habitat would challenge even the most talented of robot designers in 2020.

However, your point about air locks seems right on point, whether we are talking about a space habitat or one intended for Mars.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-10-12 09:29:12

Near term useable baselines for the automated cleaning robotics that could be leveraged towards the chicken coup location with in the large transit vehicle of RobertDyck's called Large scale colonization ship

https://www.robotics.org/service-robots … ing-robots
https://www.freedoniagroup.com/Content/ … s-to-Watch

Creation of a docking recharge location in the floor plan and a waste collected disposal is about all that is needed to make them work to keep the area clean. They would most likely use a wifi connection grid to sort of act as a gps for the mapping and control of the area for these to do the work.

tahanson43206 · 2020-10-12 13:01:05

For SpaceNut re #39

Thank you for those two links! I appreciated the opportunity to catch up on the business developments. The story of the startup being gobbled up was heartening. Such events are rare but when they occur, they show that the capitalist system is still working!

Robots to provide constant cleaning services inside orbiting chicken barns are not particularly romantic. I hope a few young people are willing to accept the challenge of creating them.

I would like to try to encourage you to separate the chicken barn idea from RobertDyck's Large Ship for Passengers.

He is talking about providing luxurious accommodations for humans.

The kind of accommodations needed for chickens may indeed seem luxurious to them, but they won't pass muster with most humans.

***
I do like your thoughts about how the cleaning robots might work inside the habitat. You probably noted that a significant advance reported in the first of the two links you provided was invention of radio guide posts for the automatic lawn machine, instead of wires laid underground.

That invention seems ready made for application to the orbiting chicken barn. On the other hand, I would expect a cleaning robot for an orbiting chicken barn to be orders of magnitude more intelligent than the simple machines used today for lawn care. The orbiting machines need to be good neighbors for their feathered "customers".

Edit#1: I would like to invite a competition between Quark's friends who like RobertDyck's passenger idea, and those of his friends who prefer to fund a chicken barn concept. Aside from a few basic elements, such as dimensions and rotation speed, the two designs are likely to diverge significantly.

(th)

Oldfart1939 · 2020-10-12 17:36:37

Chickens can be another substitute for having furry pets (dogs and cats), as certain breeds are quite comfortable around humans and can show lots of affection. I recall many years ago having a large white Brahma hen who liked nothing better when they birds were free range in late afternoon, than to hop up onto my lap for some special affection and attention. She would bed down there for up to 30 minutes and until the birds all went inside the coop. Having animals who are not only producing food but some psychological support, will be invaluable in these long expeditions away from home. She was huge bird by chicken standards--about 12-15 pounds. She enjoyed the time we spent together, as did I.

tahanson43206 · 2020-10-12 17:36:48

For SpaceNut re robots to tend agriculture ...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/alph … 48712.html

The article describes an attempt to examine every plant in a field, and to apply the correct treatment if treatment is needed.

This is the kind of thinking we have become used to seeing from entities associated with Google.

For the topic, such a robot could (presumably) keep track of the growth of every chicken in an orbiting farm, and (by extension) every bit of food or wasted that reaches the floor.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2020-10-12 20:22:28

Should I comment? Before we started the large ship thing, I pointed out carrying livestock to Mars would be difficult. Not in a Mars Direct size thing. Even Starship would not be practical; it's designed for zero-G the whole way. So an alternative would be to send fertilized eggs. But it turns out the maximum a fertilized egg can be kept in a refrigerator is 6 weeks. And it can't be as cold as a kitchen fridge, it must be set to a custom temperature for live egg storage. Considering a trip to Mars will be months, that won't work. Years ago we had a discussion of freezing eggs. I pointed out human embryos can be frozen in liquid nitrogen for years. Could a whole be cut in an egg shell, the embryo removed and frozen in liquid nitrogen. The rest of the egg frozen in a normal freezer. On Mars they could be thawed, the embryo returned to the egg, and the whole covered with tape. The individual I spoke with (forget who) suggested freezing a whole egg in liquid nitrogen. I was concerned that would create ice crystals that would pierce the embryo, but it was worth trying. So if you have access to a poultry farm, you could try to freeze a few fertilized eggs in liquid nitrogen, then thaw them to see if they survive.

tahanson43206 · 2020-10-12 20:42:48

For RobertDyck re #43

Your conversation with (a person) about freezing chicken eggs in liquid nitrogen inspired me to see what Google might have on that subject.

Unfortunately for immediate results, I'm working on a system that cannot see most of what Google serves up deeper than the snippet level.

That said, this snippet is quite interesting:

How long can embryos be frozen and still be viable?
Feedback
Web results
Hatching refrigerated eggs=frozen embryos | BackYard ...www.backyardchickens.com › threads › hatching-refrig...
These are generally flash frozen in liquid nitrogen and thawed on ice for use. ... The eggs from the chickens you want to hatch will store for different periods of ...

I'm looking forward to seeing the deeper results if someone can pull them up.

(th)

Oldfart1939 · 2020-10-13 16:36:18

I have plan to visit the Colorado State University Veterinary school and as some questions about frozen embryos. This could actually become a decent thesis research project for some graduate student.

tahanson43206 · 2020-10-13 17:43:29

For Oldfart1939 re #45 and topic ...

Thanks for telling us of your (possible?) visit to the CSU Veterinay school, and the possibility of follow up regarding preservation of fully encapsulated eggs for the trip to Mars (or anywhere for that matter).

While you are there, would you be willing to consider the question of whether RobertDyck's vision of a rotating habitat might be adapted as a chicken farm for LEO?

If such a facility can perform acceptably in LEO, then it would answer a number of questions that remain unanswered as humans contemplate moving away from Earth in little incremental steps.

In 2014, the U.S. poultry industry produced 8.54 billion broilers, 99.8 billion eggs, and 238 million turkeys. The combined value of production from broilers, eggs, turkeys, and the value of sales from chickens in 2014 was $48.3 billion, up 9 percent from $44.4 billion in 2013.
USDA National Agricultural Statistics Service Poultry Statistics ...

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-10-13 17:43:41

Nice out of the box thinking to get the knowledge for AG and duration but there is also the planetary surface which we still have questions for.

tahanson43206 · 2020-10-13 17:44:14

For Oldfart1939 re #45 and topic ...

Thanks for telling us of your (possible?) visit to the CSU Veterinay school, and the possibility of follow up regarding preservation of fully encapsulated eggs for the trip to Mars (or anywhere for that matter).

While you are there, would you be willing to consider the question of whether RobertDyck's vision of a rotating habitat might be adapted as a chicken farm for LEO?

If such a facility can perform acceptably in LEO, then it would answer a number of questions that remain unanswered as humans contemplate moving away from Earth in little incremental steps.

In 2014, the U.S. poultry industry produced 8.54 billion broilers, 99.8 billion eggs, and 238 million turkeys. The combined value of production from broilers, eggs, turkeys, and the value of sales from chickens in 2014 was $48.3 billion, up 9 percent from $44.4 billion in 2013.
USDA National Agricultural Statistics Service Poultry Statistics ...

(th)

Oldfart1939 · 2020-10-13 21:10:52

After thinking more about this concept, it would seem that chicken eggs are a bit more fragile and brittle than duck eggs, so anything that would work with chickens would probably work with other fowl: ducks, geese, turkeys, and Guinea fowl.
Another idea that hit me was whether or not we could convince Dr. Zubrin to offer a scholarship to a graduate student at CSU to do these experiments for some financial support. There's money for the Mars Desert Research Station, and prize money for the city design; why not put up some dollars to find out how to move livestock to Mars?

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2020-10-13 21:12:08)

RobertDyck · 2020-10-14 01:49:42

Be careful about your expectations about money. The Mars Society got a lot of people excited when it was founded. A number of internet millionaires donated money. Then the bubble burst. Since about 2002 the Society got most of its money from conventions. This year the convention is free; the society will be hurting. Funding for MDRS came mostly from Elon Musk. Doing things other than analogue research stations would be good, would get some people excited again. But the society will have to attract donors.

Ps. Convention Saturday banquet usually ended with an auction. I see there is no auction on the schedule. I was curious if they had any way of doing a virtual auction, but apparently not. I bought a 3 year regular membership. Had intended to give a couple presentations this year, but never did get an abstract in. The convention website requests a $50 donation, but it isn't required. I would suggest everyone renew their society membership.

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#26 2016-12-04 22:09:17

Re: Chickens

#27 2017-08-11 11:58:50

Re: Chickens

#28 2017-08-11 13:37:23

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#29 2017-08-11 13:52:53

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#30 2017-08-11 13:57:23

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#31 2017-08-11 17:23:45

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#33 2017-08-11 19:53:28

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#34 2020-10-10 17:41:01

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#35 2020-10-11 09:41:33

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#36 2020-10-12 04:56:20

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#37 2020-10-12 07:09:28

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#39 2020-10-12 09:29:12

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#40 2020-10-12 13:01:05

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#41 2020-10-12 17:36:37

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#42 2020-10-12 17:36:48

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#43 2020-10-12 20:22:28

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#45 2020-10-13 16:36:18

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#46 2020-10-13 17:43:29

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#48 2020-10-13 17:44:14

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#49 2020-10-13 21:10:52

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#50 2020-10-14 01:49:42

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