Chickens

IanM · 2016-02-12 03:14:35

Plot 0036

Here's another animal for colonists to use. Chickens give meat, eggs, and depending on cuisine, chickens feet and much more.

In the US in 2002, per http://www.ncifap.org/_images/feed_form … and_wy.ppt (A Powerpoint file), the following were used for Chicken Feed:
-5,864 million bushels of corn,
-230 million bushels of sorghum,
-148 million bushels of oats, and
-88 million bushels of barley

Further, in 2002, the following processed feeds (idem), in 1,000 metric tons (1,000,000 kg), were used:
-30,007 soybean meal,
-2,441 cottonseed meal,
-149 linseed meal,
-155 peanut meal,
-232 sunflower meal,
-1,236 canola meal,
-1,740 tankage and meat meal,
-223 fish meal,
-281 milk products,
-2,525 corn meal,
-6,159 wheat millfeeds,
-625 rice millfields, and
-1,521 miscellaneous feeds

Obviously, this is all for chicken farmers in the US, to feed a population of 300 million. These are the values linearly scaled for chickens enough to feed a colony of 100:
-1,955 bushels of corn,
-77 bushels of sorghum,
-50 bushels of oats, and
-30 bushels of barley
Given the ratios of certain contents of feed provided therein, we can then reconstruct the following as well:
-752 bushels of soy,
and, given that there are 35 pounds in a bushel of corn (https://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/bushels.html), we can reconstruct:
-2.7 lb of animal protein source, accomplished by either poultry cannibalism or other animals if they exist,
-1.8 lb of fat supplement, which can be derived from grown Olive Oil or is already inedible and can be discarded if need be,
-0.2 lb of salt, which would admittedly have to be imported,
-0.2 lb of defluorinated phosphate, which would have to be imported unless a natural source is found,
-0.3 lb of ground limestone, which can be derived from eggshells,
-0.05 lb of vitamin mix, which could be worked out by the colonists and is in any case equal to 0.8 ounces, a negligible quantity
-0.03 lb of trace mineral mix, which I would maintain is, as equal to 0.48 ounces, a negligible quantity comparable to the vitamin mix, but will still calculate as part of that which would need to be imported for defensive pessimism for cost calculations,
-As well as 0.2 lb and 0.03 lb, respectively, of Methionine supplement and Lysine supplement, both proteins, which are both negligible in quantity but in any case would be just as satisfied by the animal protein source.

This leads to, per http://www2.econ.iastate.edu/outreach/a … able10.pdf (with an averaging of 160 bushels/acre for corn and 50 bushels/acre for soy), http://crops.missouri.edu/audit/sorghum.htm (100 bushels/acre for sorghum),http://www.ipni.net/publication/bettercrops.nsf/0/C003D76125B0D665852579800081FDDF/$FILE/Better%20Crops%202000-1%20p14.pdf (60 bushels/acre for barley), and www.ers.usda.gov/...Costs.../coats.xls (Excel File - 50 bushels/acre for oats):
-12.25 acres of corn,
-15.04 acres of soy,
-0.77 acres of sorghum,
-0.5 acres of barley, and
-1 acre of oats
Leading to a total of 29.56 acres needed to support a chicken farm, which is substantially less than a quarter-quarter-section of the US Public Land Survey System and equal to 1,287,633.6 square feet or around 119,625.08 m^2. By comparison, a full Chicago City Block, a furlong by a furlong, is 435,600 square feet, such that a full chicken farm would fit on slightly less than 3 of such blocks.

Then what would the financial cost be? Totalling the values given above that need to be imported yields 0.53 lb of such materials, which would be around 0.24 kg and given RobertDyck's figure of $13,500/kg in the Swine would cost $3,245.45. The per-capita consumption of chicken in the US has roughly been 85 lb/person (42.5 kg/person) per year for the past half-decade, and extrapolated to a colony of 100 gives 850 lb/425 kg per earth year, which gives a cost of $7.64/kg (or around $3.47/lb), a really low price, which would even if inflated due to other agricultural costs would nonetheless be very affordable.

That being said, the main disadvantage of Chicken is the high risk of Salmonella poisoning if it's not cooked properly, which could knock out the colony for a few weeks. Again, comments, questions, and concerns are welcome and appreciated.

SpaceNut · 2016-02-12 23:18:03

Thanks for this topic thou I can not offer much for it other than we need an over producing greenhouse from the get go in order to not only sustain the crew in good health but also to prepare the way for husbandry.
Also inaddition to that we will need colonies of yeast, algea, bacteria for methane creation and maybe others to feast of the decaying unused garden trash and more.

IanM · 2016-02-13 18:58:20

One might duly note that I assumed that that which was grown for Chickens on Mars as opposed to imported from Earth was free, which contributes to the low price. Now let's assume we import all seeds used for the farm immediately prior to their use.

A high of 45,000 seeds/acre is planted for corn (http://www.agronext.iastate.edu/corn/corn-qna.html), a high 100-kernel weight of 40.86 g (leading to a total weight of 18.387 kg/acre) per http://www.grains.org/key-issues/corn-e … nel-weight, and a low of 50 lb/acre used per https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmed … Y-217.html, as well as similar data per http://msucares.com/crops/sorghum/seeding.html, http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/A/ANR-0884/, and http://www.smallgrains.ncsu.edu/_Pubs/PG/Srates.pdf leads to:
-496.125 lb (225.25 kg) of corn kernels,
-752 lb (341.4 kg) of soybeans,
-3.85 lb (1.75 kg) of sorghum seeds,
-75 lb (37.5 kg) of barley seeds, and
-90 lb (45 kg) of oats

Combined with the 0.53 lb needed to be imported, this would come out to 1,417.505 lb (~643.55 kg) of materials to be imported, at a total cost of $8,687,88.14, leading to a cost of $20,442.09/kg ($9,280.71/lb), an insane cost but mostly to demonstrate the high end thereof. When I get time I'll calculate a more realistic cost taking into account the surplus grains from human consumption used for the chicken feed.

IanM · 2016-02-14 00:55:07

I shall calculate the cost again, this time assuming that the colonists start their poultry ventures with the fourth conjunction-style mission after it has begun, and has saved all its surplus from human-sustenance agriculture in the interim for use for the chickens. Conjunction missions happen every 640 days, so the fourth would arrive on the 2,560th day, or after slightly more than 7 years, which I'll round down for defensive pessimism to 7 (these are all Earth units, of course, for simplicity's sake). I'll also assume that the colony's population remains at exactly 100 for these 7 years, I assume much to stretching your suspension of disbelief.

Let's say that the colony plants for exactly its need for the first year, such that its surplus is zero. The yearly surplus for corn has traditionally been 1 billion bushels in the US (http://ohiocorn.org/images/Corn-Ethanol-OCMP-2013.pdf), which would be 333.33 bushels/year extrapolated to a population of 100, which is equivalent to 93,750 seeds, or a mass of 38.31 kg (84.375 lb). The shelf life of corn kernels, from what I can find, is indefinite (http://www.eatbydate.com/other/snacks/h … helf-life/), so that extrapolating the surplus for the remaining 6 years saves the colonists 229.84 kg (506.25 lb), or just barely the entirety, of imports.

Using the relevant data of the other plants yields:
-745 lb (338.23 kg) of soybeans,
-No barley, and
-No oats
needing to be imported. Combined with the invariable 0.53 lb of non-growable stuff, this leads to a need of 745.53 (338.48 kg) of imported materials, imported at a cost of $4,569,353.37, leading to a cost of $9,619.69/kg ($4,367.34/lb), a still really high cost that shows that soy is the big killer in Chicken production.

louis · 2016-02-14 17:47:40

From my reading I draw the following conclusions:

1. Growing of salad vegetables and the like (e.g. bean shoots) in an indoor environment is relatively easy to achieve - and has been demonstrated in Antarctic bases etc. That would be the first port of call in ISRU agriculture.

2. Other crops could be grown with relative ease but would require more labour input e.g. wheat, root crops and so on.

3. Animal husbandry or fish farming is of another order. Fish farming is in fact pretty difficult because of the need for plentiful water supply and the need to suppress disease. Similar problems arise with animals, especially if we are talking about enclosed air-conditioned environments. There are many diseases that can pass from birds and mammals to humans and just trying to cope with animal feathers, hair, dander, urine and faeces is a difficult call in an indoor environment.

4. Something small like a guinea pig might be a good first resource for animal meat on Mars. But don't neglect the possibility of insect protein.

SpaceNut wrote:

Thanks for this topic thou I can not offer much for it other than we need an over producing greenhouse from the get go in order to not only sustain the crew in good health but also to prepare the way for husbandry.
Also inaddition to that we will need colonies of yeast, algea, bacteria for methane creation and maybe others to feast of the decaying unused garden trash and more.

IanM · 2016-02-14 18:28:56

You bring up a really good point with regards to water, Louis. Corn needs 350,000 gallons (I assume US Gallons) of water per acre (http://www.colostate.edu/Dept/CoopExt/4 … owmuch.htm), leading to 4,287,500 gal (16,229,953.024 L) needed just for the Corn for Chickens, which seems quite a lot. That being said, the agricultural requirements for humans will be still larger, such that the problem would likely be solved prior to the first chickens, and that the water could be both mined from the plentiful regolith and recovered by putting bags over the ears/leaves and capturing what is transpired.

RobertDyck · 2016-02-14 19:16:43

A pressurized greenhouse is sealed. Water will condense on the cold ceiling and walls, drip down back into soil. No need for individual collection bags.

IanM · 2016-02-14 19:28:26

Well, that makes water even easier.

Terraformer · 2016-02-15 14:49:09

What's more, if you design your system right you can irrigate the crops with wastewater and collect clean condensation.

SpaceNut · 2016-02-15 22:12:09

True if its not contanimated with harmful bacteria.....and or a virus which we have managed to bring along...especially from any animals.....which can proved harmful to us.....

IanM · 2016-02-15 22:23:49

Another thing is that all Chickens have salmonella, as it's a necessary part of their digestive systems; and all chicken farming has to account for that. So, if it can deal with that, I think it can deal with a lot of things already.

SpaceNut · 2016-04-24 18:26:40

Thanks for the poke of topic since we are way off topic in the crop posts....

IanM · 2016-04-24 18:35:05

No problem, and I just realized that I never quite finished my Swine post. I have work to do at the moment, but I'll get on that at my earliest convenience.

SpaceNut · 2016-04-24 21:29:39

The couple of posts that got the crop topic adrift....

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

SpaceNut wrote:
Age does do that and income does effect our health to a great extent....I do agree about livestock being at least a decade down the road after first mission...as we will need to re-estate to grow what they will feed on before we can feed on them...We will be able to bring some meat products in dried, frozen and cooked plus canned but after that we are definetly waiting until we can grow what we want to eat all the way....
Which brings me back to what we bring once empty needs to be repurposed into giving man that leg up for the next revisit to the same site for further mans ability to stay....
No need to dry food. If you bury a food container underground on Mars, the food inside will stay frozen until it is dug up again, as the average temperature on Mars is below freezing. One can store a lot of meat products on Mars. Transporting food to Mars is cheaper than transporting people. Food doesn't need a life support system, food, after it has been killed, doesn't need to be fed. No recycling of oxygen and water is required to keep food frozen on the way to Mars.

SpaceNut wrote:

With 6 months plus to mars even if frozen just prior to mars journey start then getting to the surface any meat will have reached its safe to consume.
Fresh to frozen chart
Refrigerator: A Food Spoilage Chart
http://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/charts/storagetimes.html
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsi … y/CT_Index

GW Johnson wrote:

How about that mammoth meat the Russians found and cooked and ate? It was frozen in the ground (permafrost) for tens of thousands of years. Bare, not wrapped in any way.
There is a vast difference between a use-by date and an expected date of spoilage. Use-by is usually driven by loss of some flavor. Has nothing to do with spoilage or nutrition content. In point of fact, there is no spoilage in deep freeze. Bacteria cannot grow at -10 F or colder.
GW

I did see that below 0 F does say that you could eat it but then again after a few centuries is that a pork chop or steak through all the freezer burn....

IanM · 2016-04-24 21:32:25

As kinda mentioned before, there is a tradeoff of easier freezing with poultry and definitely getting salmonella without proper cooking and thus the heightened stakes and lower room for error with cooking.

SpaceNut · 2016-04-24 21:51:32

I like to check facts when there are questions and salmonella is a bacterium. When the temperatures are freezing, the bacterial growth comes down to zero, but as the temperature keeps increasing, the bacteria also increase the speed of their growth.

froozenfood001-cfd82eb244acb95a087c1d55b6a5ce67ad7425d5-s1100-c15.jpg

Ya the fridge will not look like this one but we still need to be safe with what we eat....

IanM · 2016-04-24 22:27:16

I know that Salmonella won't grow when freezing, I'm just concerned about when it's being cooked, that it really really has to be cooked well, more so than Beef or Pork.

Oldfart1939 · 2016-12-04 16:40:11

Just a point here; where is the initial salmonella coming from? The way to import the chickens would be as their embryos (eggs), which can be washed clean and sterilized before refrigerated transport to Mars. Incubation on Mars then has disease free chickens. Any diseases, plant, animal, and human would be imported from earth. The offal from chickens would make excellent soil amendments for the greenhouses; that includes all uneaten parts, feathers heads, feet, and all. Chickens have an excellent feed ratio, producing 1 pound of chicken for every 3 pounds they consume. And what they don't add to body weight becomes more fertilizer as chickenshit. They are probably one of the first non-vegan foods available, and the Tilapia stated elsewhere would be a good bet, too. The concept of using the water to raise the fish being "consumed" is also incorrect, since the water could be then used for crop irrigation--containing the nutrients of fish wastes. Consider these as closed and feedback systems, then the total requirements go way down.

elderflower · 2016-12-04 16:56:00

All organic wastes will need to be composted and recycled, except for a very small percentage discarded away from base. Otherwise the gardens will be really short of minerals like fixed nitrogen, phosphorous or potash.
Snails can digest cellulose to speed up the breakdown of garden waste and they can be eaten too.

RobertDyck · 2016-12-04 17:22:04

I thought of transporting fertilized chicken eggs. Turns out you can refrigerate live fertilized eggs, and chicken farms do this. They collect fertilized eggs, refrigerate then until they have enough for a batch, then transfer the batch into an incubator. However, the farm fridge is not as cold as a kitchen fridge. Kitchen fridge temperature would kill the eggs. And there's a limit to how long you can keep a live egg in refrigeration. Up to a maximum of 6 weeks, and the longer it's refrigerated the fewer eggs remain viable. At the maximum, very few will hatch. Transit to Mars takes 8.5 months for a fuel conserving trajectory, or 6 months for an "express" trajectory that takes 10% more propellant. That's way longer than 6 weeks. I had thought to send fertilized eggs in refrigeration, then turn a switch to convert the fridge to an incubator. But transit time is just too long; that won't work.

But I noticed human fertility clinics freeze human embryos in liquid nitrogen. They remain viable, can be thawed and implanted in a woman's womb. Large animals die when you try to freeze in liquid nitrogen. The freezing process produces ice crystals, that slice through cell membranes like a knife. One researcher froze a live ground squirrel in liquid nitrogen, froze it solid. In the video he tapped on the squirrel with a metal spoon to demonstrate it was frozen solid. He then thawed the squirrel. It revived, shivered as it warmed itself, then came alive. It lived for 15 minutes, then died of massive internal hemorrhaging. But you can freeze an embryo. So one idea was to surgically remove a chicken embryo from its egg, then freeze the embryo in liquid nitrogen. Freeze the egg conventionally. On Mars, warm them separately, then implant the embryo back into the egg. Put tape over the whole cut in the egg shell.

But one member suggested it may be possible to freeze whole fertilized chicken eggs in liquid nitrogen. He had a small chicken farm, said he would talk to his neighbour who also had a small farm and was a veterinarian. But he had financial issues, wasn't able to complete the experiment. Haven't heard from him since; hope he's Ok. But the experiment to freeze fertilized chicken eggs in liquid nitrogen was never conducted. We don't know if the embryo would survive, or what percentage of embryos would survive the process.

Oldfart1939 · 2016-12-04 17:45:21

The possibility of doing the refrigeration on board the spacecraft is viable; the subsequent incubation takes another 3 weeks before hatching. Baby chicks don't take much room for the first several weeks, so some young pullets might make it to Mars, and shortly thereafter begin their breeding and egg laying cycle. The onboard care wouldn't take much effort since all they do is eat, drink, sleep and poop for about a month after hatching. If the Zubrin artificial gravity program is carried out, the only weightlessness would be after separation form the tether and planetary entry. They could be sedated prior to, and placed in some reentry compartments.

On the other hand, I suspect the Tilapia eggs would withstand liquid Nitrogen freezing.

You may gather from my comments that I'm not a vegan?

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2016-12-04 17:46:24)

RobertDyck · 2016-12-04 18:20:03

Try pitching the idea of live chickens in a space capsule with astronauts, try convincing an actual astronaut to do this. See how well that goes over.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2016-12-04 19:16:01)

Oldfart1939 · 2016-12-04 19:01:10

I'm not suggesting this be done in a Dragon capsule! Only later when there is adequate provision for extensive pressurized cargo.

RobertDyck · 2016-12-04 19:16:10

Perhaps I should clarify. Mars is hard. Mars will require people with the "right stuff". You won't have all the luxuries of modern industrial societies on Earth. As President Obama has said, the United States today is the richest society ever in the history of our species. My point is the first settlers will open a new frontier. You won't have all the luxuries we are accustomed to. Settlers will have to make do.

When I explained my position regarding vegan Mars, some of my vegan friends rejoiced. However, my carnivore friends hated it. So tried to placate them. Tried to explain how to transport frozen chicken embryos. I also explained research into hibernation. Researchers found rats and mice will go into hibernation if exposed to hydrogen sulphide gas @ 60 ppm. They dropped ambient temperature, animal body temperature dropped to +2°C, and metabolism dropped to 10% that of an awake animal. Rate of oxygen consumption, CO2 production, and rate of aging all dropped to 10%. They tried it with rabbits, found they had to increase to 80 ppm H2S gas, increase CO2 concentration, reduce O2, and body temperature only dropped to +5°C. But at least it worked that much. They tried with larger mammals, but it didn't work. One researcher tried with deer, elk, and moose. He also used 80 ppm H2S gas, increased CO2, reduced O2, and reduced ambient temperature. However, he also replaced half of the animal's blood volume with saline. That's salt water with the same salt concentration as blood. He found it worked. However, 10% of animals died when he tried to revive them. And of those that did survive, 30% had permanent brain damage. They did nothing but stand around, eat, drink, shit, and sleep. I pointed out you can do that with livestock, but not humans. Put calves freshly weened from milk into hibernation. If 10% die upon arrival at Mars, settlers get a beef dinner. I'm not sure whether to call it "beef" or "veal", because animals raised for veal are force-fed. These animals will not, they will be raised as breeding stock. In any case, if surviving livestock do nothing but stand around, that just makes them easier to handle. After all, they will be stuck in a pressurized barn the rest of their lives. My carnivore friends liked that, but my vegan friends really didn't.

The point is resources for a settlement of 12 individuals will not be sufficient to establish livestock. Once the settlement has grown to 1,000 people or more, then they will be able to afford the resources to support livestock.

My vegan friends still insist that a Mars settlement will remain vegan once they get used to it. And PETA sent a pair of "Cabbage girls" to ask Elon Musk to keep Mars vegan. His response was he's not the overlord of Mars. I wish I could apologize to Elon; I'm the one who stirred up the vegans.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2016-12-04 22:18:10)

SpaceNut · 2016-12-04 20:42:03

Lordy LOL just do not take chicken of the sea (Seagulls) to mars....
So we have the possibility of refrigde and hybernation freezing ect to delay incubation for a flight that seems to be just outside of the expectation of a resonable trip time.
Now if we did launch a ship like we did the New Horizon on a fast course we would arrive to mars in just....

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#1 2016-02-12 03:14:35

Chickens

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Re: Chickens

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