What would we need to terraform Kepler-186f?

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-01 13:15:25

First thing is we need to get there, it is a fairly close match for Earth, the gravity may be a little more than Earth's, not as bad as the previous planet we've discussed. This is perhaps the sort of planet we wish was the 4th planet from the Sun instead of Mars. Like Mars it is toward the outer end of its habitable zone. At 490 light years from Earth, we need to develop a generation(s) ship that is capable or reaching at least half the speed of light on a journey that lasts one thousand years. I think there have been civilizations on Earth that have lasted one thousand years, like Egypt and China for example.

The fact that it is difficult to reach may be compensated by the ease at which it could be terraformed. if it is too cold, a L1 Soletta might focus the stars light on the planet to warm it up a bit. Interstellar travel is a huge undertaking, maybe on the same scale as terraforming this planet. Of course the planet may already have an established ecosystem which may in and of itself b worth preserving for its own sake. We don't really know what lives on this planet, native life is not out of the question.
5 Things to Know About Alien Planet Kepler-186f, 'Earth's Cousin'

By Miriam Kramer, Staff Writer | April 18, 2014 06:00am ET

A newly discovered planet nicknamed "Earth's cousin" has just been found 490 light-years from Earth.

The planet, called Kepler-186f, is the first Earth-size planet found in the habitable zone of its star. Only about 10 percent larger than Earth, Kepler-186f is the closest planet to Earth in size ever found in the habitable zone of its star. What else do you need to know about the new alien planet discovery?

Here are five things to keep in mind about Kepler-186f:

This artist illustration shows what it might be like to stand on the surface of the planet Kepler-186f, the first-ever Earth-size planet to be found in the habitable zone of its star.

This artist illustration shows what it might be like to stand on the surface of the planet Kepler-186f, the first-ever Earth-size planet to be found in the habitable zone of its star.
Credit: Danielle Futselaar
View full size image

Kepler-186f is a history-making find

Kepler-186f is the first Earth-size alien planet found in the habitable zone of its star. That means the planet, which is only slightly larger than Earth, is in the part of its star system where liquid water could exist on the planet's surface. [See artist illustrations of alien planet Kepler-186f]

Astronomers have found other planets in the habitable zones of their stars, but this is the first time a planet this close in size to Earth has ever been found in the habitable zone of its star.

"This is an historic discovery of the first truly Earth-size planet found in the habitable zone around its star," University of California, Berkeley astronomer Geoff Marcy, who is unaffiliated with the new research, said. "This is the best case for a habitable planet yet found. The results are absolutely rock solid. The planet itself may not be [rocky], but I'd bet my house on it. In any case, it's a gem."

Scientists discovered the planet in data collected by NASA's Kepler space telescope.

Facts about planet Kepler-186f.

The rocky alien planet Kepler 186f is an Earth-size world that could have liquid water on its surface, and possibly even life. It orbits a star 490 light-years away. See the full details of alien planet Kepler-186f in this Space.com infographic.
Credit: By Karl Tate, Infographics Artist
View full size image

Life could thrive ... maybe

Because of Kepler-186's location in the habitable zone around its star, the planet might be a place where life can thrive. It's possible that the planet has an atmosphere that can help keep water in liquid form on the surface, a prerequisite for life as it is known on Earth.

Kepler-186f is on the outer edge of the habitable zone, so it is possible that the planet's water could freeze. Its larger size, however, could mean the planet has a thicker atmosphere, insulating the planet, San Francisco State University astronomer and study co-author Stephen Kane said in a statement.

Although they know the alien world is in its star's habitable zone, scientists still aren't sure what the planet's atmosphere consists of, and they cannot say with certainty that Kepler-186f could support life. The planet is Earth-sized, but it might not be Earth-like.

"Some people call these habitable planets, which of course we have no idea if they are," Kane said in a statement. "We simply know that they are in the habitable zone, and that is the best place to start looking for habitable planets."

It is one of five planets in the Kepler-186 star system

Kepler-186f is one of five planets found in the extrasolar system located about 490 light-years from Earth. The newly discovered exoplanet orbits about 32.5 million miles (52.4 million kilometers) from its sun. It takes Kepler-186f about 130 days to orbit its red dwarf star.

The other four planets orbiting the star, however, are not in that "Goldilocks zone."

"The four companion planets — Kepler-186b, Kepler-186c, Kepler-186d and Kepler-186e — whiz around their sun every four, seven, 13 and 22 days, respectively, making them too hot for life as we know it," NASA officials said in a statement. "These four inner planets all measure less than 1.5 times the size of Earth." [10 Exoplanets That Could Host Alien Life]

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-09-01 13:19:39)

karov · 2014-09-02 08:16:08

Tom,

And why should we neglect the other 4 ( or 8+) INNER* planets?

For Kepler-186f and the others too - no need of soleta ( or astroengineering optics in orbit or quasi-orbit or statited ), it will be enough to deploy Hall Weather Machines to heaven-ize them.

* - INNER - because there must be several hundreds of thousands at least of planemos in the star's Oort cloud / Hill sphere...

At 490 light years from Earth, we need to develop a generation(s) ship that is capable or reaching at least half the speed of light on a journey that lasts one thousand years.

Other better options possible. These distancies could be dwarfed by radical increase in human lifespan, either.

I think there have been civilizations on Earth that have lasted one thousand years, like Egypt and China for example.

I think you belong to such civilization which is well, alive and evolving for 7-8000 yrs.

Last edited by karov (2014-09-02 08:26:22)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-02 22:12:24

The other four planets aren't so easy to terraform because they would require planetary engineering Near Earth like planets are the easiest. if you examine Earth's own history, for most of its existence, it had only simply one-celled life in its oceans, and then you had the Cambrian Explosion in the last One billion years of its five billion year life span. If this statistic is any guide, I would say about four out of five Earth twin planets would be like the Earth was in its first four billion years of existence, it would be those kind of planets that would need terraforming, and it would be easy to do so, just add life, and that lie will modify the atmosphere so we could live there. Life tend to multiply, so it is very portable, you could carry in in a small starship, where most of its mass is given over to rocket engines, fuel tanks and fuel so it can get their quickly. So I'd say about 500 years for the terraforming probe and 1000 years for the multi-generation starship or sleeper ship carrying colonists to the destination, by the time they arrive the planet should be already terraformed an ready for their occupancy. Getting humans their in a generation ship would be rather tricky however. A sleeper ship would be better as would an human embryo ship, but the technology for the latter two isn't there yet.

Terraformer · 2014-09-03 04:29:07

Neither's the technology for a generation ship...

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-03 06:35:24

The main technology you need is artificial intelligence. 1,000 years is 50 human generations. The ability to reached half the speed of light can probably be achieved with a space laser accelerating a stream of mini laser sails, the generation ship then ionizes the incoming stream of laser sails with its own laser, the ions hit the ship's magsail. The ship then brakes against interstellar ionized hydrogen and or the target star's stellar wind.

karov · 2014-09-05 07:00:11

Terraformer wrote:

Neither's the technology for a generation ship...

we do have the technology of nuclear pulse rocket ( super-Orion with pusher plate or Medusa - nuclear pulse plasma sail/chute ), but generation ship sucks. It is way too slow for the accelerating pace of the technological development.

Imagine Mayflower taking off from England, and arriving today in the NYC port.

karov · 2014-09-05 07:07:53

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

The other four planets aren't so easy to terraform because they would require planetary engineering Near Earth like planets are the easiest. if you examine Earth's own history, for most of its existence, it had only simply one-celled life in its oceans, and then you had the Cambrian Explosion in the last One billion years of its five billion year life span. If this statistic is any guide, I would say about four out of five Earth twin planets would be like the Earth was in its first four billion years of existence, it would be those kind of planets that would need terraforming, and it would be easy to do so, just add life, and that lie will modify the atmosphere so we could live there. Life tend to multiply, so it is very portable, you could carry in in a small starship, where most of its mass is given over to rocket engines, fuel tanks and fuel so it can get their quickly. So I'd say about 500 years for the terraforming probe and 1000 years for the multi-generation starship or sleeper ship carrying colonists to the destination, by the time they arrive the planet should be already terraformed an ready for their occupancy. Getting humans their in a generation ship would be rather tricky however. A sleeper ship would be better as would an human embryo ship, but the technology for the latter two isn't there yet.

Tom,

First, if we have efficient SRA ( self-replicating automata ) we'd most probably already've conquered biology = sleeper, emobodiment machinery.

Second, I think the basis of your statistics is wrong, because the transition from monocellular to multicellular to encefalized life is inevitable, by virtue of the universal ubiquitous combinatorial in nature and endogenous as engine evolutionary entropic "force".

gdp and other factors doubling rates ( Robin Hanson )

Mode Doubling Date Began Doubles Doubles
Grows Time (DT) To Dominate of DT of WP
---------- --------- ----------- ------ -------
Brain size 34M yrs 550M B.C. ? "~16"
Hunters 230K yrs 2000K B.C. 7.2 8.7
Farmers 860 yrs 4700 B.C. 8.1 7.5
?? 58 yrs 1730 3.9 3.2
Industry 15 yrs 1903 1.9 >6.3

====

karov · 2014-09-05 08:05:12

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

The main technology you need is artificial intelligence. 1,000 years is 50 human generations. The ability to reached half the speed of light can probably be achieved with a space laser accelerating a stream of mini laser sails, the generation ship then ionizes the incoming stream of laser sails with its own laser, the ions hit the ship's magsail. The ship then brakes against interstellar ionized hydrogen and or the target star's stellar wind.

Well, even now with our narrow minds there are hints for many decades that to create an UNIVERSE ( infinite amount of resources by default ) is far, far cheaper and easier then to slow-boat the shallow and thin reality and to colonize planets.

I'm afraid that the Singularity ( chain reaction of bigger and bigger minds appearing faster and faster ) may remain misread-ed because their transcendence could be mistaken with failure of the attemt to be created .

perhaps this is the real answer of the Silentium Universi puzzle ( Fermi paradox ) - that the AIs and their infinite progeny prefer to conquer the unlimited depths of the reality instead of to spread thinner and thinner suffering the limits of our universe's code.

My bet is that both are true. Some species incl. infinitesimal as a proportion, but sizeable as absoplute measure part of humanity - for "belief" reasons - will stay within the present day Human Condition and will follow the old style animal paradigmae to multiply and colonize and to tailor the environment acc. to their genetically determined niche of temperature, pressure, composition, illumination and other conditions on all levels instead of relying upon the older trans-species method of live-and-die-and-adapt as new species which sacrifice the individual, or the newer trans-human ones which sacrifice the human-conditionalism.

Tom,

I noted the above not to merely object you, but to raise the point that AI / informational super-high-tech is much much much bigger job, and way way too strong of an instrument to be applied for such minor tasks as colonizing near-Earth conditions / easy to terraform bodies.

Otherwise I do agree. IF THE GOAL is merely and only a human* colony** to be implanted on Kepler-186f***, than generation ship**** and terraforming seed***** pre-launched with such advance in time so the arrivees to descend on ready to settle environment... ok, that definitelly works and is achievable even within the present day Sci-Tech with some conceivable amount of investments within reasonable (and already having precedents) time frame.

* - plain or "baseline" humans - no upgrades, no life extension, no cure for cancer ( it anyway would add only 3% ontop of the average global lifespan, so it is one of our least problems ), no reversible cryonics... ...

** - enough amount of people ( + frozens cells, and other tools from the present day reproductive medicine ) to represent healthily sizeable "excerpt" which to carry almost all of the Earth's human genetic diversity, and which won't divert in new species due to isolation so quickly. Perhaps several dozens of thousands of people.

*** - we assume Kepler-186f needs only oxigenation and greening...

**** - the ship must be biggish, to be felt like mini-world on its own. Like floating island nation. A big city attached to small comet/asteroid? Considering the nomad colonization such place won't be an exception but will represent the norm and the rule. The easiest drive would be clean thermonuclear pulse devices. Pan-SolSys laser system won't work because it will too much rely upon the global common infrastructure ... like imagine a small group willing to leave Earth now, but using circumference spanning railgun accelerator passing through way too many countries persuading their own agendas...

***** - the terraforming seed is the harder part, but we can do it even now - meso-scale big parts clunking replicator - made bespoke to prepare the target for settlement, or just a bio-bomb, artificial piece of interstellar panspermia "rock" = Seagan style terraforming unit. The hardest part will be to conserve the place for the travelers, because they and their project are kinda-sorta "time bomb" they have to imply the necessary immigration exclusion methods so the place to be reserved for their descendant 50-100 generations ahead..., but not they to arrive and to meet layers and layers of "squatters". A terraforming seed combined with defence / military system seed ... just only the codes to switch off the alarm must not be lost en route.

Last edited by karov (2014-09-05 08:29:03)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-06 15:24:17

karov wrote:

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
The main technology you need is artificial intelligence. 1,000 years is 50 human generations. The ability to reached half the speed of light can probably be achieved with a space laser accelerating a stream of mini laser sails, the generation ship then ionizes the incoming stream of laser sails with its own laser, the ions hit the ship's magsail. The ship then brakes against interstellar ionized hydrogen and or the target star's stellar wind.

Well, even now with our narrow minds there are hints for many decades that to create an UNIVERSE ( infinite amount of resources by default ) is far, far cheaper and easier then to slow-boat the shallow and thin reality and to colonize planets.
I'm afraid that the Singularity ( chain reaction of bigger and bigger minds appearing faster and faster ) may remain misread-ed because their transcendence could be mistaken with failure of the attemt to be created .
perhaps this is the real answer of the Silentium Universi puzzle ( Fermi paradox ) - that the AIs and their infinite progeny prefer to conquer the unlimited depths of the reality instead of to spread thinner and thinner suffering the limits of our universe's code.
My bet is that both are true. Some species incl. infinitesimal as a proportion, but sizeable as absoplute measure part of humanity - for "belief" reasons - will stay within the present day Human Condition and will follow the old style animal paradigmae to multiply and colonize and to tailor the environment acc. to their genetically determined niche of temperature, pressure, composition, illumination and other conditions on all levels instead of relying upon the older trans-species method of live-and-die-and-adapt as new species which sacrifice the individual, or the newer trans-human ones which sacrifice the human-conditionalism.
Tom,
I noted the above not to merely object you, but to raise the point that AI / informational super-high-tech is much much much bigger job, and way way too strong of an instrument to be applied for such minor tasks as colonizing near-Earth conditions / easy to terraform bodies.
Otherwise I do agree. IF THE GOAL is merely and only a human* colony** to be implanted on Kepler-186f***, than generation ship**** and terraforming seed***** pre-launched with such advance in time so the arrivees to descend on ready to settle environment... ok, that definitelly works and is achievable even within the present day Sci-Tech with some conceivable amount of investments within reasonable (and already having precedents) time frame.
* - plain or "baseline" humans - no upgrades, no life extension, no cure for cancer ( it anyway would add only 3% ontop of the average global lifespan, so it is one of our least problems ), no reversible cryonics... ...
** - enough amount of people ( + frozens cells, and other tools from the present day reproductive medicine ) to represent healthily sizeable "excerpt" which to carry almost all of the Earth's human genetic diversity, and which won't divert in new species due to isolation so quickly. Perhaps several dozens of thousands of people.
*** - we assume Kepler-186f needs only oxigenation and greening...
**** - the ship must be biggish, to be felt like mini-world on its own. Like floating island nation. A big city attached to small comet/asteroid? Considering the nomad colonization such place won't be an exception but will represent the norm and the rule. The easiest drive would be clean thermonuclear pulse devices. Pan-SolSys laser system won't work because it will too much rely upon the global common infrastructure ... like imagine a small group willing to leave Earth now, but using circumference spanning railgun accelerator passing through way too many countries persuading their own agendas...
***** - the terraforming seed is the harder part, but we can do it even now - meso-scale big parts clunking replicator - made bespoke to prepare the target for settlement, or just a bio-bomb, artificial piece of interstellar panspermia "rock" = Seagan style terraforming unit. The hardest part will be to conserve the place for the travelers, because they and their project are kinda-sorta "time bomb" they have to imply the necessary immigration exclusion methods so the place to be reserved for their descendant 50-100 generations ahead..., but not they to arrive and to meet layers and layers of "squatters". A terraforming seed combined with defence / military system seed ... just only the codes to switch off the alarm must not be lost en route.

One possibility is a small starship with a crew of one hundred, but with genetic stored for millions of humans, providing the necessary diversity upon arrival where their are more resources for a population spread. No inbreeded required, simply implant fertilized eggs into women and let them bring children to term. We can have DNA information stored in computers, and machines will produce the DNA and Chromosomes, implant it in an egg cell implant it in a woman, and artificial wombs are not needed. Now imagine 50 generations of such women, that covers 1000 years, how many women is that? Only about 5000, there would be 50 women and 50 men at any given moment, the population would be limited to 100 until arrival at the destination, and then the population would expand with the DNA provided for each subsequent generation from computer memory.

karov · 2014-09-07 15:34:31

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

One possibility is a shall starship with a crew of one hundred, but with genetic stored for millions of humans, providing the necessary diversity upon arrival where their are more resources for a population spread. No inbreeded required, simply implant fertilized eggs into women and let them bring children to term. We can have DNA information stored in computers, and machines will produce the DNA and Chromosomes, implant it in an egg cell implant it in a woman, and artificial wombs are not needed. Now imagine 50 generations of such women, that covers 1000 years, how many women is that? Only about 5000, there would be 50 women and 50 men at any given moment, the population would be limited to 100 until arrival at the destination, and then the population would expand with the DNA provided for each subsequent generation from computer memory.

With the frozen fertilized eggs, or computer storage DNA + cells composer and without artificial womb you need a crew of women only. The trouble is they'll get used to with female only society and might "forget" or even prohibit to install men for birth in-flight or on arrival...

With artificial womb one does not need a crew at all. Smaller ship = the Terraforming seed itself, might carry the humans download system too.

With sufficiently big and sophisticated computers not only the DNA / body-plans could be up&down loaded, but also billions of souls / entire brains connectomes / could be stored and with 3D bioprinting ready adult humans to be "woken up" when the Terraformation unit have done its job.

Indeed the funding for the project can come from here. A quite viable business model ( though quite prone to funds embezzlement and fraud ) would be: write us in your will, we'll scan you immediately on your death, and in several thousands of years we'll wake you up in a young, sexy body in excellent company on your personal heavenly planet.

BUT,

all these plans are trans-human in apps used, hence are not quite useful for our Kepler-186f,

BECAUSE,

as AI they have so big and wide, nearly infinite implications and consequences, which literally dwarf or make obsolete things like: terraforming, planetary colonization, generation ships ...

"Humans" who already have conquered death, old age .. who are complete masters of life and death, body and soul, are NO LONGER humans, and will possess entirely new set of ethics, drives, motives...

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-07 20:46:04

I try to keep the concepts as close to our level as technology as possible for this trip, since we have frozen human ova, this is known. Having transaps is a bit of superscience, the idea is to get baseline humans there in 1000 years, so in case the transaps destroy themselves with too much technological change before they even get out of the Solar System, the baseline humans will still arrive in 1000 years, there is a bit of Noah's Ark in this concept, we keep the crew size small to allow a reasonable sized starship which we can build before the end of this century, smaller than an O'Neill space colony.

Void · 2014-09-07 21:52:36

One factor I did not notice mentioned would be body size.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … opher.html
Smaller needs, smaller ship.

At some point however, the existing human brain would be too large for a smaller body. Perhaps made more efficient? Then it might be less adaptive.
A cyborg, with cybernetic brain augmentation?

I also do prefer not to get too deviated from what we know to be human though. Your crew numbers, could be small, with robots that could be deactivated when not needed.

Another thing would be virtual reality. If I were a crew member, and wanted a rich life, perhaps some of the time I would be actually in the reality of the ships environment which might be spartan, but other times, I would be in virtual reality, getting the mental stimulation that would keep me mentally healthy.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-08 08:06:45

The humans simply serve to perpetuate the human race through the long crossing between the stars, Humans give birth to babies, and raise those children, so that is the closest technology to us, making artificial wombs and robots to raise the children would be more speculative than to have humans do it, so I'd say a population of 100 humans onboard the ship would be sufficient to perpetuate the human race, have millions of frozen human oval stored for genetic diversity, have each male-female couple have two children, one of their own, and one implanted from the store of frozen human ova, they have normal human relations through out the voyage and continue with them once they reach the planet. A smaller ship rushes ahead of the colonist vessel at perhaps 75% of the speed of light, it contains plant seeds an simple animals that rely on instinct rather than parental upbringing, trees, insects plants, fish perhaps, these would be used to terraform the planet ahead of the arrival of the colonists. A ship traveling at 75% of the speed of light would get there in 667 years, it would have 332 years to terraform the planet before colonists arrived there. The idea target planet would be like precambrion Earth, with an atmosphere than needs oxygenation, so the advance ship introduces plants which does that, it also introduces trees to grow a forest that will be quite well established by the time the colonists arrive. the more advanced animals could arrive 167 years prior to the colonists arrival when traveling at 60% of the speed of light, this allows time for complex ecosystem to get established, bears, wolves, deer, horses, elk, birds etc. By the time the colonists arrive, if all goes well their should be an Earthlike planet ready for human habitation.

If we get lucky and such a planet orbits Alpha Centauri, the Human Vessel need travel only at 0.44% of the speed of light to get there in 1000 years, there are however fewer planets to colonize closer to Earth, so chances are there will be humans already in that system by the time the colony vessel arrives. A planet 500 light years out is really better than one that is close for this purpose.

karov · 2014-09-10 08:28:31

Tom,

If the task is to preserve the Human condition, I agree on the slowboat/generation ship with frozen embrios... etc.
BUT, I think a 100 people population is too few, it will create tremendous feeling of isolation and doom. Simply they'll go crazy, unless loaded with strong religious or quasi-religious memes which is equal to crazy and also is strong drive to exit the Human condition... Can you imagine the consequences of cheating, selfishness, the lack of new acquaintants, the despair of so low supply of new ideas etc. ... etc. normal human things in such tiny envorinment? The realization of the en route generations about the purpose of their lives ... I believe the seed population must be at least in the order of dozens of thousands.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-10 09:15:47

karov wrote:

Tom,
If the task is to preserve the Human condition, I agree on the slowboat/generation ship with frozen embrios... etc.
BUT, I think a 100 people population is too few, it will create tremendous feeling of isolation and doom. Simply they'll go crazy, unless loaded with strong religious or quasi-religious memes which is equal to crazy and also is strong drive to exit the Human condition... Can you imagine the consequences of cheating, selfishness, the lack of new acquaintants, the despair of so low supply of new ideas etc. ... etc. normal human things in such tiny envorinment? The realization of the en route generations about the purpose of their lives ... I believe the seed population must be at least in the order of dozens of thousands.

Okay, lets assume a classroom size of 20 children composed of 10 males and 10 females, and that in every grade there is one class composed of 20 students.
Such that 20 children are born at any given year, 10 of them are natural and the other 10 are implaneted from the ships store of fertilized ova.
Lets also assume that the average human lifespan for those aboard the ship is 80, an equal number live older as die younger. If you have 20 people at each age, from 0 to 79, how many people is that? 1600 people, you put them on a starship that looks like this:

Which is really designed to hold 10,000 people, the rest of the space would be devoted to a "Noah's Ark" of plant and animal species. Since most animals have a shorter lifespan than human, and we can store their frozen ova as well to maintain genetic diversity, a horse for instance if there were 20 members of each age group, we would need 400 horses, we would need to keep birds, fish, reptiles, insects, mammals, plants etc. Some things like trees might not need a Noah's Ark, we could simply store their seeds and plant them when ready. Terraforming ships would be sent ahead with simpler life to terroform the planet prior to arrival, and then the more complex life from the ship would be offloaded onto the planet and farms established to increase their numbers before releasing them into the wild.

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#1 2014-09-01 13:15:25

What would we need to terraform Kepler-186f?

#2 2014-09-02 08:16:08

Re: What would we need to terraform Kepler-186f?

#3 2014-09-02 22:12:24

Re: What would we need to terraform Kepler-186f?

#4 2014-09-03 04:29:07

Re: What would we need to terraform Kepler-186f?

#5 2014-09-03 06:35:24

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#6 2014-09-05 07:00:11

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#7 2014-09-05 07:07:53

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#8 2014-09-05 08:05:12

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#9 2014-09-06 15:24:17

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#10 2014-09-07 15:34:31

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#11 2014-09-07 20:46:04

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#12 2014-09-07 21:52:36

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#13 2014-09-08 08:06:45

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#14 2014-09-10 08:28:31

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#15 2014-09-10 09:15:47

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