Mars, splitting water.

Void · 2014-07-01 08:05:07

I would like to think about taraforming Mars again.

From what I think I know, an initial terraform process would likely be very similar to the popular ideas of the minds of this web site.

While there may be more resources for atmospheric inflation than the conservative value I will use, the conservative value is a good starting point. That value based on CO2 thought to be frozen into the southern ice cap is presumed to be enough to raise the average surface pressure to 11 mb. Methods to evaporate that CO2 ice include greenhouse gasses, and super greenhouse gasses as the most popular of the practical methods. However another relatively simple method to augment that is to scatter dirt from a Martian moon onto the surfaces where evaporation is desired.

So, at 11 mb, it supposed to be possible for the Martian climate to support actual water snow. I presume radiation protection would be improved, and based of tests of Lichens in simulations of the present Martian climate, Lichens, and Cyanobacteria could live in various locations, but biologically they would not be of that much significance, certainly not anywhere at the level of Earths biosphere. I am willing to admit that with such altered conditions the vapor/condensation process in the atmosphere might then scrub the Chlorine out of the atmosphere an make a partial Ozone layer occur.

I have read that it is now thought that Mars had an Oxygen ladened atmosphere early in it's history, not because of biology but from the splitting of H20 to it's components, and the loss of Hydrogen to the solar wind from the upper atmosphere of Mars.

I suggest that the second step in Taraforming Mars would be to replicate that process. It might be possible to shoot chunks of ice into the very tenuous upper atmosphere of Mars, and expect that they would evaporate into water vapor and the UV would split some if it. It might also be possible to divert small comets, and perhaps by some method break them up before impact, to inject water vapor into the upper atmosphere of Mars, but I am thinking about putting a double mirror system into the L1 location of Mars. (Between Mars and the Sun).

While it will tend to block light at the lower latitudes, with a slight tilt of the secondary mirror, it's output could be pointed at either polar ice deposit when they are in their summer seasons. The best focus could be tuned for the upper atmosphere, and after the focus, the concentration would still be very intense. I am expecting that in those conditions, water vapor would evaporate from the polar cap being targeted, and would rise up very high into the atmospheric column. At the focus, not only intense heat, but a concentration of UV should split some of the H2O, and being at a very low pressure at that altitude, recombination into water vapor would be discouraged, but some would, but also it could be expected that due to the presence of some C02, and N2, other compounds would occur. But the primary purpose would be to generate free Oxygen into the atmosphere of Mars. I know one person on the site might not like that, wasting Hydrogen to space, but I suggest that over time, directing small comets to the atmosphere of Mars would replenish the water reservoir of Mars, so that really only the population of comets would be diminished.

Bringing the pressure to 50 mb with an Oxygen dominated atmosphere, might make it possible for some types of insects to be involved with the biosphere, but they would have to be able to borrow into the soil to survive the very cold nights.

And of course the objective would be to bring the pressure and Oxygen content up to a level to not require as much or any life support gear to work on the surface of Mars, where and when the weather conditions permitted it.

I am thinking that the present CO2 reservoir might not be that toxic if diluted with Oxygen to that extent. In those conditions, the CO2 would serve as a greenhouse gas.

The payday on this would be the value of the Real Estate, improving it from a Human point of view.

So this would be stage 1 taraforming by processes well reviewed at this site, and stage 2, using a mirror justified by a large reward, where the planet would be improved for human use progressively.

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A final issue would be Nitrogen. Perhaps Nitrogen will be recovered from Nitrate beds as some have suggested, or be brought in from off world, but without that, I have read that many plants would not do well with the Nitrogen levels presently occurring on Mars. Perhaps they can be engineered to cope with it. Some already probably can. But with a 250-300 mb atmosphere, depending on the level of greenhouse gasses, I would expect many ice covered bodies of water, and suggest that without any other success in the matter of Nitrogen, Nitrogen could be injected into the waters of those lakes, to provide at least an aquatic habitat for vegetation sensitive to a lack of Nitrogen.

I know that there is a lot of resistance to the dry valley lakes idea, but at any rate, I thought I would include it as an option.

At least my focus is on Mars, if you don't otherwise like any of the above.

Last edited by Void (2014-07-01 08:05:53)

JoshNH4H · 2014-07-01 11:00:50

The actual estimates that I've seen for the CO2 available on-planet are much higher than an additional 4 millibars. In fact, CO2 inventories on planet are (I've heard) somewhere between 100 and 1000 millibars. Mars' datum is defined in terms of the critical point of water, which means that anywhere below the datum, liquid water can already exist in a narrow temperature range. I have provided an elevation map of Mars, below:

Test

As you can see, nearly half the planet is already capable of supporting liquid water, albeit within a very narrow temperature range. The issue is that the atmosphere is so dry that it evaporates very quickly.

The lowest point on Mars is the Hellas basin, 8.2 km below the datum. I calculate that it ought to have a pressure of 1.3 kPa (13 millibars), where water's liquid range is 0 C to 11 C. Seeing as it never really gets above 11 C on Mars anyway, the issue is that the water is in the wrong place and the temperature is too low rather than, per se, the pressure.

My suggestion would be to breed lichen that can survive, unaided on the surface; To spread black dust across the entire planet; If feasible, to release megatonnes of Ammonia and Methane into the atmosphere; If useful, to consider building moholes (multiple kilometer deep and multiple kilometer wide holes down into the warmer parts of the planet that release heat into the atmosphere); Perhaps consider pointing mirrors at the north and south poles, the south pole especially.

Void · 2014-07-01 14:30:12

You have expanded the information, and in reality we have pretty much the same tools. I decided to plan on the basis of a value for CO2 ice in the South pole that would actually move the average from ~5 mb to ~11 mb. I agree with your moisture analysis.
You will notice that I left open the option to import Nitrogen (Ammonia) and such.
I would make the point that while we can speculate on tools to put in the tool box, it will be human motivation, and practicality that color the sequence and magnitude of the use of tools.
Economics will be one of the motivate humans, technical difficulties would on the other hand limit from a practical view what could be tried.
Actual hardware, and human culture, what people are motivated to do, what seems intelligent, or not worth it can change by the time these things are implemented.
A more certain inventory of resources available would color the decisions on how to do the teraforming.
Beginning with Lichen, I would say that it is likely that humans will be roughing it on Mars in small numbers at the time that Lichen would also be taking hold. Other than providing for their survival and comforts, if they have extra energy, they could begin releasing greenhouse gasses, and that if combined with a possible dumping of dust on the CO2 deposites on the south pole, just could be enough for an initial teraform to perhaps at least 11 mb.
Back to moisture. I have read that at 11 mb, the Mars climate could provide for true water snows, and I presume ice frosts across an expanded area. This is important for Lichen, because they do not need water in liquid form, but can do some amazing things just from moisture, snow, and ice.
http://www.antarctica.gov.au/about-anta … ts/lichens
Lichens have a number of adaptations that enable them to survive in Antarctica. They are able to exhibit net photosynthesis while frozen at temperatures as low as -20°C. They can absorb water from a saturated atmosphere when covered by snow. Additionally, snow cover affords protection from the elements and most growth appears to occur when they are buried beneath at least a thin protective layer of snow. They can survive long unfavorable periods of drought in a dry and inactive state. In continental Antarctica, many lichens are able to absorb water vapor from snow and ice.
So getting them covered with snow, and also prolonging the period of time they are surrounded by a water vapor saturated atmosphere, could only help them.
Further I hope that snow may be able to scrub the Chlorine out of the atmosphere, and so perhaps permit an accumulation of Ozone, also helping the Lichens.
Where it will likely turn out that there could be 100-1000 mb eventually available for atmosphere eventually, that is not certain, and also it may take quite some time to warm up the deep sub-surface to release it.
Specifically targeting the CO2 in the south pole while also releasing greenhouse gasses, is possibly the best way to move Mars to a condition where temporary water can run.
It is said that at 11 mb temporary streams could form from snow melts. In the best conditions, humans could then build infrastructure to capture those snow melts in some cases.
Then if they built up their capabilities they could build mirrors of the types we have suggested, or distribute dust to more than the South Pole, make it blackened dust if they could. They could intercept comets, or otherwise import Ammonia or whatever was in their capabilities.
I brought up the water splitting option because apparently it happened early in the history of Mars, and also it is a producer of Oxygen. Here again, if you wait for Lichens to provide Oxygen, then you have a long wait. But as this idea is saleable to some degree, it is possible that it will provide help earlier.
If somehow the CO2 expected was not actually available then their is an option. If it works very well, then maybe you don't want to prohibit condensation of CO2 at the poles, but store it there and release to the biosphere in a controlled manner, at a rate the biosphere can convert to O2.
Even if you opt for a 100-1000 mb atmosphere of dominantly CO2, (If the CO2 is availible), you might want to sweeten the atmosphere with Oxygen for plants early, because many plants use Oxygen at night.
But my main argument is that if you have tools, and I have tools they can be considered, and it it seems that they might have a use then they should go into a set of options, a tool box.
What tools are used and when and what sequence will depend upon a very large set of variables.
Nice Maps.

Last edited by Void (2014-07-02 13:58:23)

Void · 2014-07-02 07:53:36

I will do some follow-up conversation on Lichens. and micro-organisms.
I begin by using you best case value of 11 degC as the upper limit for useful moisture, and that applies as you have said to the lowest surface of Mars, Hellas Basin as you have said. So I agree to the statement that about ½ of Mars can support surface life with liquid moisture as is, with no terraforming.
That article I referenced however, adds that -20 degC is the lower limit for some hardy lichens from Antarctica.
Tests done by Europeans, Germans I think, indicate that some of those Lichens and also Cyanobacteria, have a rough time making it out in the open, but in cracks in dirt or cracks in rocks, conditions seem to be good enough for them to make it. They said that it would be because of protection from radiation, and I believe that is likely a factor. I would imagine the spectrum of light at the surface can be divided into three factors:
1) Warming (They must all serve to warm).
2) Photo generative non-damaging. (Some of the visible light).
3) Damaging (UV).
Perhaps Lichen and Cyano have a saturation level for 2) Photo generative non-damaging light. If so, being in a crack would attenuate all wavelengths of light in most cases. However if some is reflected light, perhaps being in a crack would also change the amount of particular wavelengths, since some wavelengths would be absorbed and some reflected. At any rate if a photo organism had already gotten as much useful light as it needed, not going above that level, would also limit the amount of harmful wavelengths.
Salt: Lichen would not benefit from having salt in the crack. It is typically not very salt tolerant I have read. Cyano bacteria might benefit from salt, which would help retain moisture, and would keep moisture liquid at lower temperatures. So Lichen can deal with temperatures down to -20 and still metabolize, but Cyano bacteria would more likely dominate salty areas.
The thermal characteristics of cracks might be important as well. Cracks in rocks or soil may have a higher thermal inertia, and perhaps have a lesser temperature swing than other locations. If the variation is primarily between -20 degC and 11 degC, (In Hellas) then that would be optimal for a moisturized situation supporting metabolism. That I presume would occur at some time during the day, and not be likely during the night. However the night may be helpful to drop the temperature in the cracks below -20 degC, and make it possible for condensation to occur in the crack primarily after the lowest temperature is achieved. I would expect that as the open areas begin to warm up, unless sunlight is directly shining at that time into the crack, the crack would be of a lower temperature, and would receive donations of moisture from the open areas, which would be loosing moisture.

The experiments conducted, trying to simulate the current ambient conditions, suggest that in protected areas the most hardy lichen can do OK, and it can be supposed that if you could get such lichens, and perhaps also Cyano bacteria started in those protected areas, they might eventually tune with evolution to be even better adapted. But without interventions I cannot speculate how long that would take. It would actually be wise to have a chamber on Earth where that evolution can be stimulated, different strains of the Fungi, Cyano Bacteria, and perhaps Algae provided, the survival of the fittest. But perhaps a bit of genetic engineering could be used as well.

I would also like to see an experiment where 11 mb was employed and also 22 mb. If the average of Mars was elevated to 11 mb, then perhaps Hellas in it’s best case would be 22 mb (A gestimate).
I would also like to see how the organisms respond to dry snow accumulation in the cracks from simulated snow falls and wind, and how they would deal with dust and also salts.
Antarctica’s Lichens environmental preferences have been defined well enough.
I know you don’t require this, but maybe some other readers do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria
Salts:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20618868

Last edited by Void (2014-07-02 14:32:29)

knightdepaix · 2014-07-09 13:16:08

Void wrote:

A final issue would be Nitrogen. At least my focus is on Mars, if you don't otherwise like any of the above.

A very wild imagination is recycling the silicon after exploitation of ores on Mars, near earth objects, etc. and converting the element into nitrogen with very huge energy input from nuclear fusion or fission.

1 mole of Si28 + very huge energy input from nuclear fusion or fission ---> 2 moles of nitrogen

My question is how much atmospheric gases or content Mars can hold. Also how can native perchlorate be utilized ?

Void · 2014-07-09 14:51:19

I can offer encouragement and state that you appear to be a very useful addition.

I will only be able to converge with you on things sometimes, as our methods are so different, and your level displayed is far beyond me.

However, I think I see your notion.

An energy generating trigger device.
An energy generating fusion device.
An energy consuming 1 Si to 2 N fission process?

I don't know what the limit could be on how much atmosphere Mars could hold and not leak more than it does. I am betting it is a lot.

A thicker atmosphere could hold heat in though and make the upper layers cooler which could inhibit leaking, but I believe that most losses are due to solar wind, and not thermally driven.

louis · 2014-07-09 18:46:25

My suggestion:

I think you could release a lot of gases and increase heat retention by building lots of vehicles on Mars that go around doing this all day/sol, using concentrated solar energy.

So the challenge would be to find the most effective, and easily produced, sort of solar-powered vehicle that could go around the planet doing this job of heating up regolith and releasing gases.

There are more than a billion vehicles on Earth now. I suppose I am thinking on that sort of scale - billions of vehicles processing hundreds of billions of kgs of regolith every day. These vehicles would obviously be much simpler to produce than passenger vehicles on Earth with all their complex requirements.

I am thinking of this as almost a robotised process: robots scouring the planet for iron ore, making steel, producing the simple robot vehicles...and other robots producing PV panels from the silicon (silica?) and reflectors from polished steel or similar.

Any thoughts?

JoshNH4H · 2014-07-09 20:32:28

I don't think that it's possible, realistically speaking, to fission Silicon into Nitrogen. Physically possible yes, but the amount of energy required to do so would be incredibly high

Void · 2014-07-09 20:59:05

I don't want to discourage an eager mind, but your objections are also necessary. I am thinking Hydrogen bombs, where fuel is obtained from Mars where heavy water is concentrated X5?, and Lithium might be found in the salt pans. I am also thinking Helium 3 from the Moon, to reduce the radioactive results. But it needs some more thinking.

Louis,

The best I can do is trolly cars. If Mars was a cue ball in elevations, then a gridron of trolly car cables might make sense. But in the Northern Hemisphere is the 1/3 of the planet which is flat. Perhaps there as a start. Solar power plants where it is efficient, and electrical conductors to serve multiple purposes. To serve your desires, I propose that one conductor is copper or aluminum the other ground. To implement that the grounding rods must be very robust. Like a pyramid. Copper at the top, then Aluminum,
then other lesser but broader conductive masses, down to Carbon and then the soil.

Advantages: If I am in a trolly car, and my propulsion engine blows up, perhaps I can still run life support from the cables until rescue. If ground currents are flowing through the soils, then perhaps they are heating up from it.

Also, if my energy budget from the trolly cables permits it perhaps I can emit a power beam into the soil to heat it more.

That's what came up on your request. I hope someone else can do better.

Note that you come from an entirely developed culture and infrastructure, and so would be the above proposed. Before that would be required transport with on board energy methods, those devices required to build the trolly system.

Void · 2014-07-09 21:20:10

OK, I confess, that did not quite make it, as it implied that the trolly car could somehow complete the circuit through the ground.

The trolly cars would have to have two conductors, one a main of either polarity, and a lesser one to power the trolly car. The ground would serve to conduct power to towns located at a place of a resource such as a mineral.

I am trying to minimize the use of copper or aluminum, while serving your desire to heat the ground.

That all I have at this time.

Last edited by Void (2014-07-09 21:22:13)

knightdepaix · 2014-07-09 21:26:01

JoshNH4H wrote:

I don't think that it's possible, realistically speaking, to fission Silicon into Nitrogen. Physically possible yes, but the amount of energy required to do so would be incredibly high

As I have typed above, that fission is a very wild imagination.

Void · 2014-07-10 08:14:14

Louis,

An alternate plan is to cover areas with water at a temperature warmer than freezing. For fresh water 32-39 degrees Fahrenheit / 0-3.88889 degrees Celsius.

The current conditions are unfavorable for a stable ice cover for such bodies of water even at high latitudes, but since much of the necessary water would have to come from the polar ice caps and the south polar ice cap holds an estimated C02 content that could boost the average surface pressure to 11 mb, more favorable conditions could be supported. I am not saying that 11 mb is the limit, is just a good number to start with.

Water placed over a surface area of perhaps up to 1/2 the area, would conduct heat into the ground at a more rapid rate. The ice cover would be a good thermal insulator. What is then needed is to put heat energy under the ice into accumulating bodies of water. The accumulation would have to come from the melting of polar caps and ground ice.

Very harsh environments at the edges of the polar ice caps, but seasonal sunlight is available. I would consider investigating the possibility of placing a mirror system in the L1 location for the Sun / Mars built from materials from the two moons.
And also the release of the super greenhouse gasses explored for terraforming on this web site.

When possible it would be used to melt a first ice covered pool, which would join very near the edges of the ice caps, so that even though the pools surface ice would tend to evaporate, replacement water would be obtained from the ground ice below the pool, and also from the melting edges of the ice caps.

Until the pressure is increased, liquid water could only be generated by shining light through an insulating ice layer, and melting the ice below. Rivers and streams are currently possible on Mars, but they must be ice covered, and of course the water must be cold, and you would have keep a lot of melting happening to maintain them. But seasonally, it would be possible even if the atmosphere is at the current pressure.

Upon creating pools of sufficient size to grant protection to a population of humans through Martian winters, humans could be added to the site, and they could build power plants where seasonal solar power would use concentrating mirrors to generate steam which would be run through turbines, and would be quenched into the liquid of the lakes. This would both provide electric power and also heat the lakes. If fresh, the bottom layers can be heated to 39 degrees Fahrenheit / 3.88889 degrees Celsius. If somehow the water was very salty (Presumed remnant of ancient oceans salts leaching into the water), then the bottom waters can be heated to 70 degrees Fahrenheit + / 21.1111 Celsius +.

The human population might be mostly seasonally migratory. Obviously if sunlight is entering through the ice and melting water, then conditions for some aquatic life are supported. As the pools expand into seas, the ground below them should warm up and release gasses. Those would eventually migrate into the atmosphere, increasing it's pressure.

The ice surface presumed to be relatively flat will support vehicular traffic above it and perhaps traffic below the ice.

Mining might be negatively impacted since mineral deposites might lay below shallow seas. But it was going to be hard to do shaft mining anyway, since a leak in your mine would depressurize it. In this case, liquid above it might leak in but in many places on Earth, water has to be pumped out of mines. Another solution would be dykes, to surround a mining area and keep the water out.

Also for a long time permafrost would lay below the seas, and any water leaking in at a relatively slow rate would tend to freeze, and so seal the leak, so your mine would not be flooded.

For stip mining however, dykes are needed I would think. But maybe many important mineral deposites at that location will have been mined out before being flooded, or maybe they would not be in the flood areas.

Last edited by Void (2014-07-10 08:19:26)

knightdepaix · 2014-07-18 16:58:27

Regarding nitrogen, could a manmade CNO cycle create nitrogen and fluorine from carbon and oxygen ? Fusion energy can be utilized but huge amount of hydrogen would be consumed. Obviously on paper not as simple as fission silicon-28 to nitrogen-14, which require a very huge energy input, if the process would have been possible ?

For your reference:

Import of nitrogen from Titan to Mars and fission splitting of Martian silicon to nitrogen

JoshNH4H · 2014-07-18 18:24:04

My expectation would be that the cost of building such a large fusion reactor would be immense. Let's say that fusion reactors are on par with nuclear fission reactors in terms of cost per watt. this website suggests a value of about $4/watt.

By "using the CNO cycle", I assume you mean not the CNO cycle, but using the nuclear processes in the CNO cycle to make Nitrogen from other elements, chiefly Carbon and Oxygen. It's not actually possible to make Nitrogen from naturally occurring Oxygen using the reactions in the CNO cycle (The Oxygen produced is actually just an intermediary with a half-life of about 2 minutes. It's not possible to create O-16 from it unless you bombard it with neutrons, which is not feasible for various reasons).

Anyway, the reaction to go from C-12 (the common form of Carbon) to Nitrogen-14 involves the addition of 2 protons in 2 separate fusion events, and releases 10.7 MeV per atom. This works out to 7.5e13 J/kg of Nitrogen. To produce 30 kPa of Nitrogen on Mars over 100 years would require 1.2e18 kg of Nitrogen, which would generate 2.8e22 W, thus costing about $1e23. That's $100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, or one hundred billion trillion dollars. Assuming that world economic output grows at 5% per year in perpetuity, this is equivalent to putting the entire world to work building fusion reactors on Mars from now until 2381. If 10% of Humanity's economic output goes to fusion reactors, we will be building them from now until 2428. 1%, until 2476 (Exponential growth is weird).

It would probably be cheaper to ship nitrogen from titan, or even better to try to make do with what we have.

knightdepaix · 2014-07-19 20:05:41

JoshNH4H wrote:

My expectation would be that the cost of building such a large fusion reactor would be immense. It would probably be cheaper to ship nitrogen from titan, or even better to try to make do with what we have.

In essence, either
1) import nitrogen from objects like planet Titan
2) nuclear fusion (C12->N14) or fission (Si28-->N14) can be hugely economical than current cost.

So is plantation on Mars limited to bacterial growth ?

Void · 2014-07-19 22:32:24

I have cross linked to my post on Radiotrophic organisms, since my answer is the same.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7107

Void · 2014-07-19 22:44:39

I guess I will blab my latest suggestion for a terraforming goal for Mars, and then try to explain how to get to it.

The ideal pressure without adding Nitrogen to the atmosphere would be ~300 mb. But if there is More CO2 than that then it is unlikely to be possible to keep down to that level.

I would see the southern hemisphere and northern hemisphere treated differently.

The south ice deposits are on high ground, and gravity feed would tend to move that melted water towards lower latitudes where I would expect rivers would end evaporating from salt pans.

The north polar cap would be melted to create an ocean covering perhaps 1/3 of the planet. That is if there is enough water.

I would suggest that an irrigation system would move water from the southern condensation and melt areas to lower latitudes as effectively as possible to create a bias where the southern hemisphere donates extra water to the northern ocean. The things irrigated in the southern hemisphere could be salt pans, crater lakes, and perhaps even crops on a seasonal basis at higher latitudes, and to provide water to a very large system of greenhouses at lower latitudes.

The desire to inflate the northern ocean to the maximum possible would be for those parts which would be filled at the lower latitudes, open water could exist. Gravity of the northern ocean into the Mariner Rift Valley system might be a preference. Ice covered parts of the ocean might even so support a more limited amount of solar driven biology.

The ice layer thickness would be modified to thinning by having installations of solar power plants (Concentrating Mirrors) on the ice pack and quenching the steam into the waters of the ocean. Keeping the ice from getting too thick would allow some sunlight to enter, and to also help warm the waters.

A north south electrical power grid at a preferred longitude would transfer electrical power from the ice pack power plants to the shores of the ocean, or to island cities poking up from the ocean ice. The power grid would extend from pole to pole if possible and would support the transfer of power to strings of cities, and would also provide for a trolly car system, which could be used to have seasonal migrations of populations, and to conduct the transfer of commercial materials.

One function of the northern ocean and other smaller bodies of water would be to warm the subsurface to release some of the gasses bound to the rocks and soil as is proposed to exist by others.

The warming methods are many, and most have already been mentioned previously in this thread, so I will spare you from repeating those, unless you want to further discuss them.

Excellent maps have been provided by Josh previously in this thread which could help in visualizing the proposals of this post.

Last edited by Void (2014-07-19 22:55:52)

JoshNH4H · 2014-07-19 23:47:15

Void, that seems pretty reasonable. But why Hydro power? Wouldn't solar be just as good? There will probably be a lot of feedback effects, as the dessicated soil releases CO2 from carbonates upon hydration.

Knightdepaix,

There is likely more nitrogen buried as nitrates in the Martian soil than in the atmosphere. It should be pretty possible to get nitrogen levels up to acceptably high levels with the inventories available on-planet, and if we can't I would suggest that genetic modification is a better solution than nitrogen importation to make the nitrogen levels acceptable.

Void · 2014-07-20 08:51:18

The first effort would be to use terraforming methods to prohibit the condensation of CO2, and to release the permanent CO2 in the south ice cap.

Having that I would expect that river systems would try to form in the southern hemisphere. Later if they become significant, hydroelectric power would be an option.

By force melting the northern ice cap in particular, and also as a side concern, parts of the south ice cap, ice covered reservoirs would hasten the release of gasses from the flooded soils, which upon release from the waters into the atmosphere would universally contribute to a greater greenhouse effect, warming all the exposed soils and ice surfaces to some smaller degree. It is a happy convergence that an expanding ice covered body of water at each pole could have concentrating mirror type solar power plants that would generate electricity seasonally, and could quench their steam into the waters below the ice. By doing that the thickness of the ice could be kept to a desired minimum to allow the ice covered reservoirs to collect some solar energy as well.

In the northern hemisphere, the desire would be an ice covered ocean that expands until filling the maximum possible area, hopefully being able to fill the Mariner Rift Valley,

In the southern hemisphere, an initial pool would have outlets and perhaps natural rivers, and in some cases created channels, that would cause it to conduct the melt water to lower latitudes to help support a biosphere, and evaporation, biasing the collection of water to the northern hemisphere. That would have to wait until the atmosphere and greenhouse gasses were sufficient to cause a general melting of at least some of the seasonal condensation in the southern hemisphere.

So solar power in the south would be hydro-electric, in low latitudes could be solar panels, and in the north concentrating mirrors, and a semi-natural process where the ice covered sea is also a solar collector. This all tied together in a string like grid running north and south at a particular longitude.

For the northern sea it should be preferred that the ice pack be held fast to the north protruding lands, and that at least in the Mariner Rift Valley there would be open water.
This is more possible on Mars than on Earth, since Mars has only tiny moon tides, its northern hemisphere will continue to be colder, and if the atmosphere is thinner, a wind process for breaking up the ice pack will be weaker. Also on Earth, the oceans have a lot of tropical area to generate warm currents to warm the northern polar seas, it would not be so much on Mars.

But there is no reason not to poke holes in the ice with solar energy from orbital mirrors at locations desired. In particular, I would not object to bringing the average solar flux of the Mariner Rift Valley up to Earth levels, or even higher, to facilitate conversion of CO2 to O2, and Hydrocarbon materials sinking to the bottom of the sea, and to make one place on Mars even more Earth like.

The objective would be to speed up the terraforming process, and to also integrate humans into it fully, and make its processes facilitate the survival and comfort of humans.

Last edited by Void (2014-07-20 08:57:45)

Void · 2014-07-21 08:00:41

I can't resist adding a bit more.

For the ice covered polar oceans, in the event that the ice is kept thin enough for sufficient sunlight to pass through it into water, the potential
exists for Oxygen bearing layers of water, long before the atmosphere itself could permit animial life. That Oxygen would come from photosynthisis
by plankton either in the layer of water under the ice, or if it is and ocean with salt in it (Which is likely), then brine tubes in the ice, allowing
the plankton to be inside the ice layer almost to the surface of the ice perhaps at times.

http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorati … a_ice.html

So I am speculating that fish or other Oxygen breathing animals could grow at some locations in the sea where a lack of toxic gasses existed and the
presence of Oxygen would become sufficient. The humans would have to decide if they wanted to have fish, or Oxygen. They could balance it by poking
holes in the ice with Orbital Mirrors, which would release the Oxygen to atmosphere, and also poison the waters with CO2. They could choose how
much habitat for fish there could be.

This also brings me to some interesting questions. For dry valley Antarctic lakes, are the algae in the top less salty layers from mariene lineages or from fresh water heritage? If not mariene then these lakes might have a much richer and more effective biosphere than I would expect, since brine channels allow algae to be inside the ice/brine tube matrix, which brings them much closer to the sunlit surface of the ice.
So an ice covered ocean on Mars, might be a much more powerful biosphere than an Antarctic dry valley lake.

Last edited by Void (2014-07-21 08:07:40)

JoshNH4H · 2014-07-21 08:17:12

All of this sounds like a pretty good idea to me, we just need to get going. I'm all for oceans on the Martian surface, 100%. 1000%. Let's do it!

Starting small, of course. Black dust and lichen on the poles, and the equator. Add some CFCs to the atmosphere. Bring in methanogens and ammonia-releasing bacteria. What we want is to create a situation where parts of the planet are warm enough to support liquid water, year-round.

I can't get the terraforming calculator to run on my browser-- it says java is out of date-- but there is a calculator here that will allow you to play with many of the parameters of terraforming Mars.

tmccormick · 2015-12-10 09:58:10

I had the same issue with the java terraforming calculator running on newer versions of java. So I decided to rewrite it in Visual C#. You can download it from my homepage if you want to try it.

http://www.tracyamccormick.com/projects.html

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