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#1 2014-01-27 19:29:08

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,032

16 Psyche

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche

Apparently a Iron/Nickel core.  Pretty big chunk of metal with some slag.  May have an intense magnetic field.  Not much like other asteroids I guess.  No water to speak of.  I bet it got boiled off if their was any when the core got exposed by impacts.

I guess I would build habitats out of it curious what you would do.  What potential do you see for it in a solar system economy?


Done.

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#2 2014-01-27 19:34:31

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: 16 Psyche

How much gold do you suppose it has? Perhaps some gold miners can follow a seam all the way to the asteroid's core. On Earth mining is limited to a certain depth because of the pressure build up as one digs deep.

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#3 2014-01-27 20:03:10

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,032

Re: 16 Psyche

If the right development were to occur in economics and technology, I would think that materials from such an object could cause a massive deviation in the course of history.  For instance the materials might be rather useful in constructing machines that alter environments of planets.  I don't have anything particular in mind, but have to imagine that the power of it could be massive in altering planetary environments.

I had thought what if you made the asteroid into a foam of hollow shells for a habitat.  How big would that be?  Of course that is not a best use, but it is a curiosity.  That much metal.


Done.

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#4 2014-01-27 21:08:02

Tom Kalbfus
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Posts: 4,401

Re: 16 Psyche

One could make an artificial world out of it, its 200 km in diameter, that's a lot of metal. It has significant gravity. One possibility is that if it was brought into a close orbit around Venus, its tidal effects could be used to increase the spin of that planet slowly. Of course that would also tend to drag the asteroid in toward the planet, be we could add rockets to counter that tendency. Slowly we could spin up the planet while using some of the material from the asteroid to shade it, firing rockets to counter the tendency of the planet to drag the asteroid into itself. If we do this long enough, we can give the planet a 24-hour day and also its own magnetic field to go along with it. Later on we could bring the asteroid further out by sending it into an elliptical orbit, and at its furthest point we fire some rockets to keep the asteroid from falling back, the planet will continue to pull on the asteroid, and by accelerating the asteroid away from Venus so that it holds its positionm you end up accelerating the planet itself, bringing it out into a wider orbit that eventually places it within the habitable zone of the Sun. We can place it to about 1,600,000 km inside the perihelion of Earth's orbit. When the Earth passes close to Venus, its disk will be as big as the full moon in Earth's skies if it could be seen, but of course we'd be looking at the night side of Venus and not see much. But people on Venus would see a full Earth about the size of Earth's moon at this distance in its full glory in Venus' night sky. Naturally the gravity tugs would be responsible to keep the two planets from colliding. I think the tidal effects of this close pass would be pretty significant for both planets, but would only occur when Venus catches up with Earth. One possibility is that both planets could switch places on a close pass so that Venus would then be the third planet from the Sun and the Earth and Moon the second.

Using the circular orbit calculator:
http://www.calctool.org/CALC/phys/astronomy/circ_orbit

Earth
Mass a 1 Sun
Mass b 1 Earth
Distance 149,598,000 km (147 million km to 152 million km)
Orbit speed 29,786.1 m/sec
Orbit period 365.240 days

Venus (new orbit)
Mass a 1 Sun
Mass b 1 Earth
Distance 145,400,000 km
Orbit speed 30,213.0 m/sec
Orbit period 349.974 days

or if we can make Earth's orbit circular, we can place Venus in this orbit
Venus (new orbit)
Mass a 1 Sun
Mass b 0.816 Earth
Distance 148,163,700 km
Orbit speed 29,929.9 m/sec
Orbit period 360.000 days

Giving Venus a 360 day year with 12 equal 30 day months.
Earth moves 0.98565 degrees per day while Venus moves 1 degree per day, that means by subtracting Earth's rate from Venus' we get a gain of 0.014347 degrees per day divide 360 degrees of a circle by that amount and we get 25,092.354 days or 68.701 Earth years between times Venus passes Earth in its orbit.

We can give Venus the planet Mercury for a moon as well

Mercury (New orbit)
Mass a 0.818 Earth
Mass b 0.0553 Earth
Distance 389,824 km
Orbit speed 944.959 m/sec
Orbit period 30.0000 days

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-01-27 22:02:31)

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#5 2014-01-27 23:05:14

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 5,032

Re: 16 Psyche

I guess I might wonder if factories on it could manufacture robot solar sails, that would guide themselves to a purpose.

Since you mention Venus, perhaps they could guide themselves to impact Venus, and neutralize the acids.  I know that it has been
proposed to do that from Mercury or the Moon, but the energy to go into solar orbit would be far less on 16 Psyche, and with so much
purity of metals before processing, I would presume manufacturing a foil sail might be economical.

As for Mars, maybe you could do similar, but instead of crashing they would guide themselves to a retrieval point, to be reprocessed into the Mirrors that many think could be useful in terraforming.

As for the outer solar system, I would think you could build containments, sail them over to Ceres, and fill up with water, and establish a population into the habitats, and then slowly move them to points in the outer solar system.


Done.

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#6 2014-01-28 03:39:08

Terraformer
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From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,560
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Re: 16 Psyche

Eh, you could probably terraform Venus with that much metal available. How stable are Iron Carbonates?

It's a lot of Iron. Probably worth over $8x10^18 - 8 Pentillion dollars, given that a 1km diameter asteroid is apparently worth a trillion. Don't expect to be able to back a currency with precious metals if there are mining bases there. Solomon made silver worthless; this will make pretty much every metal worthless.


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#7 2014-01-28 06:27:27

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: 16 Psyche

Gold will still be worth more than paper, probably would make a better currency if it was more common. Imagine if gold was worth $100 a kilogram, then a 10 gram gold coin would be worth a dollar, hard to counterfeit that kind of currency.. If one wants more light weight currency they could try iridium.

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#8 2014-01-28 08:34:22

Terraformer
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From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,560
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Re: 16 Psyche

$100/kg would only be a factor of 500 drop. There is a lot more than 500x the amount of gold available in space, so even when you factor in the increase in value currencies give, you're still going to crash the market (my favoured tactic if the states demand my space development company pays them taxes - prepay for several decades in gold, then follow up by making gold worthless).

If you want a currency, back it with something valuable, like real estate in Shackleton city, or spaceships, or trading space on the Citadel...


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#9 2021-08-11 15:40:07

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,986

Re: 16 Psyche

For SpaceNut re Topics with Psyche in the title ...

There are three topics ... This one by Void appears to be the oldest ...

It seems to be a good fit for this post, because Tom Kalbus made reference to metals ...

A writer who goes by Matthew Hart wrote an article for Nerdist.com about Psyche ...  it is easy to find at Nerdist.com, or by searching with Google.

This post is NOT about the asteroid, or analysis of light reflected from the object, except indirectly ...

The purpose of ** this ** post is call attention (within the context of this forum) to the issue raised in a light hearted manner by Matthew Hart.

Mr. Hart created the image of the vast wealth of the asteroid being distributed equally to everyone on Earth.

Now, while that idea was amusing in the context of the article, I see it as emblematic of the problem we humans are already facing.  The Earth ** already ** has enough wealth so that everyone could live in comfort and in safety, but we have collectively failed to organize ourselves so that such a desirable state of affairs is possible.

The potential of Psyche (or many other comparable repositories of great value) floating around in the Solar System brings the question of how to manage the introduction of great wealth into the culture to the fore.

The basic power of selfishness grips almost every human being alive today.

The default behavior of human beings would be to land on an object and claim it for themselves.

Nations are out of the claiming business, but that is certainly NOT true of individuals.

The vision of Matthew Hart is idealistic in the extreme, but it ** is ** possible to achieve, if we humans address the issue BEFORE it becomes a problem.

The concept of common stock may be useful, as we contemplate a future in which great wealth becomes possible.

Returning to the theme .... Terraformation was first imagined as action upon physical objects .... I am describing in this post a kind of psychological Terraformation, which yields an acceptance of great wealth for everyone, whether they "deserve" it or not, simply because they were lucky enough to be born on Earth.

(th)

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#10 2021-08-11 20:53:25

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,747

Re: 16 Psyche

Nickel and other precious like Lithium or rear earth magnetic metals would have value but iron not so much....

the science of exploration in this case is to determine where it came from....

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#11 2021-08-12 07:08:12

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,986

Re: 16 Psyche

For SpaceNut re #10

The metals in Psyche are less important (to my way of thinking) than the human social question of how to distribute the contents of the asteroid equitably to the members of the tribe.

In times past, the hunter brought home a kill, and saw to it that every member of the tribe received a portion.

In this situation, we have a larger tribe, and the "kill" is a Solar System asset, but the underlying situation is precisely the same.  In a less enlightened tribe, a few strong hunters would eat the entire prize, and leave nothing but scraps for everyone else.

We (humans) need to do better than that, and I am trying to do my (very small) part to pick up the conversation where Matthew Hart left it, as light hearted banter intended to add value to his article on the asteroid.

You've spoken often and convincingly of your concern for the average person ... the "job holder"  of society, so I'm hoping the problem of how to distribute Solar System wealth to ** all ** members of the tribe, and not just the strong will appeal to you.

With all large problems, the process starts with small steps.

(th)

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#12 2021-08-12 17:00:49

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,217

Re: 16 Psyche

The distribution of the metals in Psyche are less important than the fact that industry can use the metals to create useful objects such as catalytic converters or fuel cells or electronics.  People wouldn't be stealing catalytic converters if Platinum Group Metals (PGMs) were only of nominal value.  I'm not interested in having a stack of bars of Platinum in my safe.  I'm interested in cheaper car parts, fuel cells that are low-cost because the active materials used are low cost, no shortages of PGMs due to scarcity on Earth, etc.

Every aspect of human existence doesn't need to be a virtue-signaling contest about equity and equality, if for no other reason than the fact that historically all such activities ultimately serve petty tyrants who neither distribute resources equitably, nor with any noteworthy consideration for equality.  Equality is every person in the NBA being forced to be the height of the average man, running the same speed, jumping to the same height, and having the same intelligence...  Since nobody is interested in watching a bunch of mediocre players of average skill and/or intelligence, nor players so similar that you can't distinguish one from the next, all equity and equality arguments are, in reality, about distributing resources to people who wouldn't lift a finger to go get them.

All those people who think space exploration is a waste of time and money, and that we could feed all those poor starving children in Africa, are the case in point.  The children in Africa are starving because they have petty tyrants who rule over them, not because there's any lack of food.  When we send people over to distribute food, they get raped and murdered by the local warlord's band of savages unless our military goes over there with them and lays waste to the local warlords.  That's pretty much the only real reason that the kids are starving- nothing to do with equity or equality, nor intelligence, nor skin color, no being born poor.  Maybe there's equality of stupidity for choosing to live that way, but that's their business, not ours.  You can't "help them" because they don't want to be helped, as their actions prove.  I'm not talking about the kids, rather all those idiots with machetes and AKs who are constantly running around raping and murdering.  They start at about age 10, and keep doing what they've been doing until they either die or grow too old to engage in that nonsense.  So...  That's why you're never going to help them.  Moreover, they don't need to be helped.  They either need to wipe each other out, or enough of them decide that that's not how they want to live, and then the problem will rectify itself if anyone's left.  If not, then too bad, so sad.  Sometimes you allow people to make the decisions they will make, even if you disagree, even if you know the consequences will kill them, even if you only have the best of intentions and truly want to help them.  Anyway, enough about the "won't someone think of the poor children" imbeciles.  Childhood can't continue on until you have gray hair and ultimately, you can't fix stupid, as Ron White constantly reminds us all.

Equity is every person in the NBA getting paid based upon performance, irrespective of equality.  If you score more often or prevent the other team from scoring more often, then your value as a player increases.  The problem with equity is how you rate performance.  If one player assists with every scoring shot your team makes, but doesn't actually score points, is he any less valuable to the team than the person doing the shooting?  If the other team is willing to foul your players and you have a person who's a terrible free-throw shooter, but never fouls the opposing team and assists with most of your scoring attempts, is he less valuable?  The results of the game is about which team scored the most points per game, but actually winning a game is not that simplistic, because there are an infinite number of permissible tactics and strategies to secure 1 more point than the opposing team.

How about a new standard?

1. We don't deprive people of the necessities of life due to economics, because we always assure that there is an abundance of the implements of a modern technologically advanced human civilization, keeping prices low so that anyone who does a modicum of work can afford what they absolutely need.  We use our technological innovations to assure that there is an abundance.  If you can throw a rock in any direction and hit a bar of Platinum, it ceases to be valuable due to scarcity, and then becomes much more about what you can do with that metal to add value to someone else's life.

2. To the extent practical, we don't allow other people, especially governments, to dictate to everyone else how they spend the money they've earned.  If the government can't learn to operate within a budget, the way everyone living under that government is forced to, then we begin recalling politicians until we get people in power who understand how to balance a checkbook.  All "good ideas" from the good idea fairy need to be filtered through the lens of, "If this was my money and someone else put a gun to my head and demanded my money for their pet idea, which I disagreed with, then how would I reconcile that with what I'm about to do to others who may disagree with me?"

3. If you think you have a good idea, to your way of thinking, but require investment from others to complete your project, then you try to persuade others rather than using force or using a surrogate (government) to use force to get those other people to invest in your idea.  This is a markedly different behavior pattern from how people have treated each other since the dawn of human civilization.  If this requires more effort and investment in time, then it should force people with ideas to formulate better arguments for why they want to do something.  Sloth is a more pressing problem than greed in many cases.

On that note, I think we're discounting the value of Iron and Iron-based products over the literal handful of uses for the PGMs.  Most of the trappings of modern civilization are not possible without concrete, Iron, glass, and plastic.  PGMs didn't have bo diddly to do with creating modern civilization as we know it.  PGMs don't irrigate crops, they don't create clean drinking water, they don't help in waste water treatment, nor do they see extensive use in modern medicine.  PGMs are very useful for catalytic converters, electronics sensors, and fuel cells, but humanity doesn't have many other uses for them because they are so scarce.  If scarcity wasn't an issue, then we could use higher catalyst loadings for longer catalytic converter service life or greater effectiveness and widespread use of fuel cells, but that's about it.  The electronics sensors wouldn't materially benefit, though obviously we could economically manufacture more of them.

Iron, on the other hand...  There's no complex machine on this planet without Iron in it, and often lots of it.  Every engine, fuel cell, and battery is held together with steel bolts and steel casings, the machine it's powering generally contains numerous steel parts.  Heck, simple silverware requires stainless steel and nearly every knife in existence that's worth having is made from steel.  Nobody is looking for more Obsidian or Aluminum cutting tools, for example.  Ceramic knives are great until they impact something, and then they're not-so-great.  Every machine tool in the workshop is either steel or Tungsten Carbide coated steel, so good luck making durable goods without steel.

If there were incredibly abundant sources of Iron / Aluminum / Nickel / Titanium, that required less energy to produce, or energy that didn't require burning something here on Earth, that'd be nothing short of revolutionary.  If all of our structures were made from very cheap steel-reinforced concrete, then we wouldn't need to chop down trees nearly so often, and any structure could be built to last for at least a century.

If every fisherman could afford a durable steel ship, less subject to sinking than a rickety old wooden row boat, I think you'd find that very few of them would turn up their noses at that.

If we could build fleets of steel ships in space, rather than trucking them from Earth, all the way to orbit, then colonizing pretty much any place in the solar system would be well within the realm of feasibility.  Practicality is a separate issue.  There may not be any point to colonizing Pluto, for example, even if we could do it.

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#13 2021-08-12 17:27:11

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,986

Re: 16 Psyche

For kbd512 re #12

This post is reserved for a tag if I can figure out what would be appropriate.

Thanks for contributing to the topic!

***
If there is another member who would like to respond to the (somewhat humorous) suggestion of Mathew Hart, please do so.

If there is someone not yet a member who would like to contribute, read Post #2 of Recruiting.  Please expect some vetting.

(th)

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