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#1 2014-01-21 20:51:30

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

French Republican Mars Calendar

Here is a Mars calendar based on the principles of the French Republican Calendar that was established during the French Revolution and then abandoned. But the useful thing about it here is it uses different names for the 12 months of the year. For our Martian version of this calendar we've expanded each 30 day month into 55 days for a total of 66 tenday weeks per year with the following French names, so we don't confuse it with a Terrestrial seven day week.

Ten days of the week
primidi (first day)
duodi (second day)
tridi (third day)
quartidi (fourth day)
quintidi (fifth day)
sextidi (sixth day)
septidi (seventh day)
octidi (eighth day)
nonidi (ninth day)
décadi (tenth day)

There are approximately 669.5 Martian Sols Per year

12 Mars Months each 55 days long with French names as follows:
Northern Autumn
Vendémiaire
5 tenday weeks + half a tenday week (5 days)
Brumaire
half a tenday week (5 days) + 5 tenday weeks
Frimaire
5 tenday weeks + half a tenday week (5 days)

Northern Winter
Nivôse
half a tenday week (5 days) + 5 tenday weeks
Pluviôse
5 tenday weeks + half a tenday week (5 days)
Ventôse
half a tenday week (5 days) + 5 tenday weeks

Northern Spring
Germinal
5 tenday weeks + half a tenday week (5 days)
Floréal
half a tenday week (5 days) + 5 tenday weeks
Prairial
5 tenday weeks + half a tenday week (5 days)

Northern Summer
Messidor
half a tenday week (5 days) + 5 tenday weeks
Thermidor
5 tenday weeks + half a tenday week (5 days)
Fructidor
half a tenday week (5 days) + 5 tenday weeks

For a total of 660 days + 9 complementary says every even year and + 10 complementary days every odd year
We can just stick em at the end of each Martian Year for New Years festivities and the exchanging of gifts. Since the year begins in Northern Autumn, this could be celebrated kind of like Thanksgiving, a harvest festival perhaps.

Following the French Metric tradition we include a decimal Martian day, who's Eartly equivalent never quite caught on in France.
Decimal Sol
Each Sol is divided into 10 hours, each hour is divided into 100 minutes, each minute is divided into 100 seconds

What do you think, could this be useful?

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#2 2014-01-22 06:22:39

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

Why change the system? Why not just have a witching hour (well, half hour) to synchronise the days? Base 60 is actually quite good, because it divides nicely into thirds...

I don't see any good reason to change things. But if your colony wants to, go ahead, feel free.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#3 2014-01-22 07:55:05

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

Terraformer wrote:

Why change the system? Why not just have a witching hour (well, half hour) to synchronise the days? Base 60 is actually quite good, because it divides nicely into thirds...

I don't see any good reason to change things. But if your colony wants to, go ahead, feel free.

The French went to all that trouble, it was a waste of time really, but why not make use of it? Seems at one point the French Revolutionaries wanted to eliminate their culture from their calendar by eliminating all Christian references in it, they were going to make the year of their Revolution into year one. It is certainly different from the Christian Calendar, they have new names for months, so it would be very difficult to confuse a Martian date with an Earth date. Metric time is optional of course, it is not intergrated with the rest of the metric system.

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#4 2014-01-22 11:35:06

Terraformer
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

What? We don't even *have* a 'Christian' calender, we have a Roman one, using Babylonian time, that's zeroed to a Christian date.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#5 2014-01-22 12:17:18

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

Terraformer wrote:

What? We don't even *have* a 'Christian' calender, we have a Roman one, using Babylonian time, that's zeroed to a Christian date.

The Gregorian Calendar was implemented in the 18th century to make up for the fractional difference between the Julian Calendar and the orbit of the Earth. The Julian calendar simply had a leap year every 4th year, but didn't include provisions for a non-leap century, every fourth century (ie 400 800, 1600, 2000) a year that ended in '00' which was divisible by 4 was a leap year where as, but all the other years which ended in '00" (ie 100, 200,300, 500, 600, 700, 900, 1000, 1100, 1300, 1400, 1500, 1700, 1800, 1900) were not. So for instance 1896 was a leap year same as the Julian calendar, but 1900 was not a leap year, 2000 was because it was divisible by 400) This is the calendar were using today, and by 1700 the Roman Empire was long defunct, having been demolished by the Turks in 1453 that would be the Eastern Roman Empire or Byzantium. The French Calendar is basically the same as the Gregorian Calendar except they shifted the month over so the first month began on the Autumnal equinox September 22, and the all had uniform lengths of 30 days each with 5 loose days outside the months and a 6th loose day every leap year except where the Gregorian calendar has specified that there be no a leap year.

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#6 2014-01-22 12:25:29

RobertDyck
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Posts: 5,670
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

The Gregorian calendar was established by Pope Gregory XIII in 1582. It's based on the Julian calendar, established by Julius Caesar in 46 BC. The difference is the Gregorian calendar adjusts leap years; instead of just one day added to February every fourth year, with the Gregorian calendar a century year is not a leap year, but every fourth century year is, and more exceptions with even longer periods. This adjusts for fraction of a day in Earth's orbit about the Sun.

Months are based on the orbit of the Moon. The Moon's synodic period is 29 days 12 hours 44 minutes 2.9 seconds. "Orbital period" is how long it takes to orbit, ending up in the exact same place. "Synodic period" takes Earth's rotation into account, so it's how long it takes to appear at the same place in the sky. Earth's orbit about the Sun also affects that. Notice the synodic period is very close to a month.

According to Wikipedia, the Roman calendar changed a couple times. The Calendar of Numa had odd numbered days per month, because Romans considered odd numbers lucky. It had 12 months, and 355 days per year, established 713 BC. Before that was the calendar of Romulus, established with the founding of Rome, about 753 BC. It had 10 months, and 304 days per year.

All that explains a few things. The name "December" is based on the Latin word for ten, because it used to be the tenth month.

So our calendar isn't Babylonian, it's Roman. Considering Roman emperor Constantine converted the Roman empire to Christianity, it's fair to say it is Christian.

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#7 2014-01-22 16:12:19

Terraformer
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

I didn't say our calender is Babylonian, I said our time is. Or maybe it was the Sumerians who came up with the whole base 60 thing with the clock.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#8 2014-01-22 17:31:31

Tom Kalbfus
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Posts: 4,401

Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

One thing 60 minutes to the hour does is make me late., the hour is over sooner than we think cause we are used to 10s and 100s, not 60s. if its 6:50 we have only 10 minutes left, with decimal time we have 50 minutes.

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#9 2014-01-22 17:48:53

RobertDyck
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

If you're often late, then you're late. Changing the definition of an hour isn't going to change anything. I could see changing the calendar to match Mars year, but the clock? Not necessary, and not desirable.

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#10 2014-01-22 19:34:53

louis
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

The hemispheric bias of the French nomenclature is really for me an insurmountable defect. 

I think the months  (whether approximating to 30 sols or 60) should be named after people of honour and note involved in Mars exploration.  So I hope we might have a 3rd of Elon and the 5th of Zubrin for instance.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#11 2014-01-23 08:14:05

Terraformer
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

Why not just let people use whatever calender they like? One will emerge eventually that most people prefer to use.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#12 2014-01-23 13:45:29

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

louis wrote:

The hemispheric bias of the French nomenclature is really for me an insurmountable defect. 

I think the months  (whether approximating to 30 sols or 60) should be named after people of honour and note involved in Mars exploration.  So I hope we might have a 3rd of Elon and the 5th of Zubrin for instance.

1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12
There are still 669 Martian sols in a Mars year and 670 every other years.

The conservative approach would be to use the same names of the Months that we use, but
make the weeks 10 days long. The numbers above are the month number in the year that are 31 days long, every other month is 30 days long or in the case of February 28 long. There are 9 or 10 extra days to play  I see July and August are both 31 days long because they were both named after important Emperors of Rome Julius Caesar and Augustus.
January 56 sols
February 55 sols
March 56 sols
April 56 sols
May 56 sols
June 56 sols
July 56 sols
August 56 sols
September 56 sols
October 56 sols
November 55 sols
December 56 sols
10 day weeks make the months broader.
Ten days of the week
Sunday (first day)
Monday (second day)
Tuesday (third day)
Quartday (fourth day)
Wednesday (fifth day)
Thursday (sixth day)
Septday (seventh day)
Friday (eighth day)
Saturday (ninth day)
Deciday (tenth day)

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#13 2014-01-23 14:03:06

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

Mars Year 1
January
|Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Quartiday, Wednesday, Thursday, Septiday, Friday, Saturday, Deciday|
|1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10|
|11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20|
|21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30|
|31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40|
|41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50|
|51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, -, -, -, -|

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#14 2014-01-23 14:44:26

RobertDyck
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Posts: 5,670
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

The reason for introducing a 7 day week was to give people one day off work. They were supposed to not work the last day of the week. Of course the church dictated that people should work for the church that day, instead of their usual day job. So a day off work? Not so much. Medieval Europe found Jewish bankers were very good with banking. Often a some king would screw up his nations economy, call in Jewish bankers to fix it, then once the economy was running smoothly again concoct some excuse to demonize the Jewish people and kick them out of the country. It was just a power thing. After several cycles of this, some countries realized the economy runs better with them, so decided to permanently accomodate them. But when the Christian religion was new, they chose to make the first day of the week their day of rest (read: work for the church) instead of the last day. With both religions in the economy, they eventually decided to make both days non-working days. That's how we ended up with the weekend we have today.

If you're going to move to a different calendar, are you going to return to one day of rest per week? All other days working days?

By the way: source of names of today's English language names for days of the week:
Sunday = Sun day (all hail the bright source of light in the sky)
Monday = Moon day
Tuesday = Tyr's day (Tyr is the Norse god of law)
Wednesday = Woden's day (aka Wodanaz or Odin)
Thursday = Thor's day (Norse god of strength, thunder, lightning, storms, etc)
Friday = Freya's day (aka Freja or Freyja, et al, Norse goddess of love, sexuality, fertility, gold, etc.) Party! (or the goddess Frigg, wife of Odin, more motherly, not as much fun)
Saturday = Saturn's day (Roman god of harvest, wealth, agriculture, and controlled the first hour of the day)

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#15 2014-01-23 16:25:45

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

Well I was thinking of a three day weekend as standard, One gets Saturday, Deciday, and Sunday off as part of the standard work week, and one would work, seven out of 10 days per week. The work week increases by 40% from 5 to 7 days, the weekend increases by 50% from 2 to 3 days.

Some standard holidays: New Years Day would be January 1, and Christmas on Mars would be one tenday week before that, as there are 56 days in Martian December, then Christmas is on December 47th, ten days from that day would be January 1, the 12 days of Christmas would end on January 2. Pinpointing Easter on Mars would be more complicated as Mars has two small moons and traditionally Easter is determined by the Lunar Calendar Thanksgiving would be the last Thursday of November, whatever day that happens to fall on. Halloween could be the last day of October, which would be October 56th.

Generally the work week begins on Monday, the middle of the work week is Wednesday, or "hump day" as its called, as always and Friday is the end of the work week.

If one uses the decimal clock, then there are 10 hours per day, which is 100 hours per week, as a Mars day is 24.62 Earth Hours long, each decimal hour would be 147.72 minutes long, each decimal minute would be 88.632 seconds long, and each second would be 0.88632 seconds long. So there are 100 decimal seconds in a decimal minute, 100 decimal minutes in a decimal hour or 10,000 decimal seconds in a decimal hour and 10 decimal hours in a Martian sol or 100,000 decimal seconds in a Martian sol. A Martian week is 1,000,000 decimal seconds, its much easier to do the math up to a Martian tenday week.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-01-23 16:34:58)

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#16 2014-01-23 17:30:07

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

Don't redefine the second. We've settled on that as the SI unit for time. You might as well propose defining a "Martian meter", or a "Martian kilogram".

Interesting thing about the days of the week, really. It seems our time system goes from the Middle East in a northwest direction... the rest of the world doesn't get a look in.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#17 2014-01-23 17:43:38

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

The second is an old English Unit that was adopted by the metric system. No need to change the meter for Mars, but a Martian Watt would be different as that is defined as a Joule per second. Perhaps we start with primary units and derive the secondary units with involve time from that. It is a bit clumsy to have 60 seconds in a minute and 60 minutes in an hour and 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week. You can't use standard metric seconds in a Martian sol anyway, since those don't divide evenly Zubrin wanted to define a Martian second, so I figure while we're doing that we could have decimal seconds based on 10 Time unites would be as follows:

1 tenday week = 10 sols, = 100 hours = 1000 decihours = 10,000 minutes = 100,000 deciminutes = 1,000,000 seconds

or how about this, what if we rename the minutes and seconds for the units used in the old Battlestar Galactica series.

1 tenday week = 10 sols = 100 centons = 10,000 minutes = 1,000,000 microns.

That should get the metric prefixes about right. a venton defined as 1/100th of a tenday week while a micron is one millionth of a week. That way we don't confuse microns with standard seconds, and use the word micrometer instead of micron when we're talking length.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-01-23 18:00:20)

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#18 2014-01-23 19:56:09

RobertDyck
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

No need to duplicate Christian holidays. Wouldn't this be a secular settlement? If religious, then let the colony establish their own thing.

Christmas is based on the pagan (read non-Christian) holiday of Noel. That was the celebration of the winter solstice. "We made it half way through the dark, and we're still alive." The word "Christ" is the Greek word for messiah, and the name "Jesus" is the Greek version of the Hebrew name Joshua. The standard at the time was to name a child after his father, so Joshua son of Joseph and Mary would be named Joshua ben Joseph. The apostle Paul (aka Sol) wrote in Greek, so he changed the name. Writings of Paul were the foundation of the Catholic Church. Description in the bible of the birth of Jesus are of spring, not the middle of winter. Christmas was chosen to convince those who worshiped pre-Christian religions to switch to their new one. Noel was a very popular celebration; they needed something to get through winter. Solstice is December 21, so they chose December 25 to be close but just enough different to be a new thing. Santa Claus is based on the story of Saint Nicolas, but he was a rich nobleman who gave food to poor families in his village and immediate area. He was a man, lived and died. The tradition of giving toys is a recent invention; the image of Santa that we know today was concocted by Coca cola in the 1930s as a marketing ploy. It's become an entire industry, selling useless trinkets. Do we really want to perpetuate that? Stop and think about the larger societal impact: everyone is acting as a rich spoiled brat, spending copious amounts of resources. Getting together with family is far more important, but the idea of hand making gifts has been discouraged in favour of buying some cheap crap sold at ridiculously over inflated prices.

Easter? That's another Christian myth. Egyptian mythology was raided and copied to convince people to worship the new religion. Dieing and rising again, direct lift. One thing that bugs me is government civil servants in Canada assume a 4 day weekend over Easter: they take both Good Friday and Easter Monday. But I have difficulty identifying what is "Easter Monday". It isn't a statutory holiday, no one other than civil servants get that day off. We don't want to perpetuate a union thing.

Halloween is another myth that has been commercialized. "All Hallows Eve" is the evening before "All Hallows Day" also known as "All Saints Day". One tradition is all witches and evil souls are banished for another year, so the eve is their last chance to reek havoc. A more strict religious tradition is the souls of deceased members of a local congregation are honoured and remembered. It's based on the Gaelic tradition of Samhain, which marks the end of the harvest season and beginning of winter. It's become training for young children to become door-to-door salesmen. And of course retailers want yet another opportunity to sell useless crap. Do we really want that?

Let Mars settlers establish their own traditions, and their own holidays.

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#19 2014-01-23 21:52:07

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

You know Robert, the French Revolutionaries who made up the Republican Calendar where thinking along much the same lines you were in this last post, they basically wanted to throw out their entire French Culture and start anew, as if their French Revolution was the beginning of a new civilization, where they could start anew, it was not! Most of the French peasants that supported this Revolution didn't like where the Intellectuals were leading them, they considered themselves Christians still. I think a lot of the French intellectuals were simply drunk with power, they thought they could reorder society from top to bottom, they murdered the King and Queen, finding that simply deposing them wasn't enough, they killed tens of thousands of aristocrats and their families, they led a rein of terror that caught even many of the Revolution's initial supporters and murdered them as well, and it only stopped when Napoleon staged his military coup and began his wars of conquest.

I think when we travel to a new place, we bring our history with us, the pilgrims did when they settled Plymouth, they brought their Christianity with them. I think it was a mistake the way the French conducted their Revolution, the American Revolution didn't strive to reorder society, it was not about class struggle, we simply wanted to sever the bonds with our mother country, which we felt at the time was treating us as their inferiors, there was no retribution against the wealthy, we simply wanted our own country and we got it. We didn't make an American Calendar, we kept the old one. Our struggle was limited to the narrow goal of political independence from the British Empire. The French got carried away with their Revolution, they went too far, and it collapsed in on them. The only reason we need a new Calendar for Mars is because its a different planet. When we get there, we will still be Americans for a long time to come, we will probably bring are Christian culture because it is what makes a lonely and barren planet more like home. I think the kids will love Christmas, Easter, and Halloween, there is no reason to deny them that, and American colonies will probably also celebrate the Fourth of July, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Martin Luther King Day, Memorial Day and all the rest, there is no reason not to. Colonies from other cultures may not celebrate these holidays. Mars will be a world of immigrants, and like the Irish who brough Saint Patrick's Day, we will bring our own traditions with us as well, so we might as well adapt the Martian calendar to them. That is how I see it.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-01-23 21:53:13)

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#20 2014-01-23 23:29:38

RobertDyck
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

America redefined units of measure: there are 16 ounces to a pint instead of 20, 32 ounces to a quart instead of 40, and 128 ounces to a gallon instead of 160. The size of a fluid ounce was even redefined. Spelling was changed, it's "color" instead of "colour", etc. Standard tools have a different name: wrench instead of spanner. And money: dollars based on the decimal system. British money at that time was the pound sterling (worth one pound of sterling silver), 20 shillings per pound (one shilling was initially the value of one cow in Kent or one sheep elsewhere), and 12 pence per shilling. They also had a florin worth 2 shillings, and a half-crown (coin) worth 2 shillings and 6 pence, or 1/8 of a pound. There was also a crown coin worth 5 shillings, but that was only minted as a commemorative coin, not used for everyday transactions. Holidays were changed: Thanksgiving instead of a far less formal harvest festival, and Labor Day instead of May Day. So America did redefine society, they just didn't go nuts like the French.

And you're assuming America will found the first settlement on Mars. The last few years I've been wondering; in fact I've come up with an alternate mission proposal: a Canadian led international mission. Canada would hire Russia to launch 2 satellites, each on a Proton rocket. But Canada would pay 10% in cash, the other 90% would be applied to restore infrastructure for Energia. Then make another deal with Russia: they pay to prepare/restore space shuttle Ptickha for flight, and they pay for launching it twice. Once to launch the centrifuge accommodation module; remember that was paid for by Italy and built by Japan, but NASA never launched it. The other Russian shuttle launch would lift the Russian solar panels. If they do that, Canada would provide one CanadArm identical to the ones we provided to NASA for their shuttle, including all auxiliary equipment and cosmonaut training. Since the arm from Endeavour was returned to Canada, now say we would give Russia that one. This does a couple things: additional solar panels provide power to the centrifuge, and the centrifuge can test long term exposure to Mars level gravity. But mostly, the Russian shuttle is launched by Energia, so that means launching Energia twice with Russia crew before trusting any Canadians. Then tell Russia if they want a cosmonaut along on the first ever human mission to Mars, the price is they pay for the Energia launch vehicles, including manufacturing, fuel, vehicle integration and launch services. They would also have to pay to complete development of the Energia Upper Stage. The European Space Agency would be involved: I would ask them to launch a robotic sample return mission to demonstrate ISPP, and an orbiter to demonstrate aerocapture. I would also ask Europe to provide surface instruments for the human mission. Australia has a Deep Space Station, and one Mars Society member there has already said he wants his country to be involved. Canada would build the spacecraft and spacesuit. And I expect other countries involved with space would want to jump onboard. For this to be affordable, all "old space" companies in the US would have to be banned. Would any US companies be involved? The "new space" companies have some really good stuff, but if NASA is not providing any money, maybe not.

If Congress continues to drag their feet, expect something like this will happen. Instead of "Old Glory" the first flag may be the Maple Leaf, along with all those others. Or China may decide to do it on their own.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2014-01-24 09:28:14)

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#21 2014-01-24 06:35:46

Terraformer
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

Why not just a Commonwealth mission then? Canada, Australia, Britain, maybe India and South Africa...


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#22 2014-01-24 09:42:15

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

RobertDyck wrote:

America redefined units of measure: there are 16 ounces to a pint instead of 20, 32 ounces to a quart instead of 40, and 128 ounces to a gallon instead of 160. The size of a fluid ounce was even redefined. Spelling was changed, it's "color" instead of "colour", etc. Standard tools have a different name: wrench instead of spanner. And money: dollars based on the decimal system. British money at that time was the pound sterling (worth one pound of sterling silver), 20 shillings per pound (one shilling was initially the value of one cow in Kent or one sheep elsewhere), and 12 pence per shilling. They also had a florin worth 2 shillings, and a half-crown (coin) worth 2 shillings and 6 pence, or 1/8 of a pound. There was also a crown coin worth 5 shillings, but that was only minted as a commemorative coin, not used for everyday transactions. Holidays were changed: Thanksgiving instead of a far less formal harvest festival, and Labor Day instead of May Day. So America did redefine society, they just didn't go nuts like the French.

Of that, I'm glad, May Day was the Soviet's "Fourth of July" they had their parades in Red Square where they showed off their various armaments including missile batteries designed to blow up US cities. Why would we want to celebrate a holiday like that? Besides what day would you rather go to the beach and have a picnic, May 1, or September 3? I tell you I once tried swimming off of long Island on May 1st and the water was cold!, I went in ankle deep and my feet got numb with cold. If its all the same, I'd rather go to the beach at the end of Summer on Labor day, rather than on May 1st when the water is still cold. Also Labor day doesn't carry all that communist baggage that May Day does.

RobertDyck wrote:

And you're assuming America will found the first settlement on Mars. The last few years I've been wondering; in fact I've come up with an alternate mission proposal: a Canadian led international mission. Canada would hire Russia to launch 2 satellites, each on a Proton rocket. But Canada would pay 10% in cash, the other 90% would be applied to restore infrastructure for Energia. Then make another deal with Russia: they pay to prepare/restore space shuttle Ptickha for flight, and they pay for launching it twice. Once to launch the centrifuge accommodation module; remember that was paid for by Italy and built by Japan, but NASA never launched it. The other Russian shuttle launch would lift the Russian solar panels. If they do that, Canada would provide one CanadArm identical to the ones we provided to NASA for their shuttle, including all auxiliary equipment and cosmonaut training. Since the arm from Endeavour was returned to Canada, now say we would give Russia that one. This does a couple things: the additional solar panels provide power the centrifuge, and the centrifuge can test long term exposure to Mars level gravity. But mostly, the Russian shuttle is launched by Energia, so that means launching Energia twice with Russia crew before trusting any Canadians. Then tell Russia if they want a cosmonaut along on the first ever human mission to Mars, the price is they pay for the Energia launch vehicles, including manufacturing, fuel, vehicle integration and launch services. They would also have to pay to complete development of the Energia Upper Stage. The European Space Agency would be involved: I would ask them to launch a robotic sample return mission to demonstrate ISPP, and an orbiter to demonstrate aerocapture. I would also ask Europe to provide surface instruments for the human mission. Australia has a Deep Space Station, and one Mars Society member there has already said he wants his country to be involved. Canada would build the spacecraft and spacesuit. And I expect other countries involved with space would want to jump onboard. For this to be affordable, all "old space" companies in the US would have to be banned. Would any US companies be involved? The "new space" companies have some really good stuff, but if NASA is not providing any money, maybe not.

Is it really wise to have "Czar Vladimir Putin" as you space partner? I think if Putin wanted to go to Mars, he'd have a mission ready to go by now. I think However Putin, like most Russian and Soviet leaders before him, were more interested in conquering Earth through force rather than space. The US is very good with space, we've had missions to the four outer planets, the Russians have yet to land a probe intact in Mars. The Russians have not been all over the Solar System like we have. The Russians have had a lousy track record with regard to Mars, they have had better luck with Venus, though even their their surface probes didn't last long.

RobertDyck wrote:

If Congress continues to drag their feet, expect something like this will happen. Instead of "Old Glory" the first flag may be the Maple Leaf, along with all those others. Or China may decide to do it on their own.

If you elect Bob Zubrin as Prime Minister of Canada, then maybe.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-01-24 09:43:35)

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#23 2014-01-24 09:49:38

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

Terraformer wrote:

Why not just a Commonwealth mission then? Canada, Australia, Britain, maybe India and South Africa...

Sounds rather snobby if you do it that way. I don't think you could do it in 3 years, which is how much time we're stuck with this lousy President. Of those powers, maybe India will be the chief financier, since they have a population of one billion people and would be rivals to the Chinese effort. The choice is, do you want to play second fiddle to China, or India, or the United States. I don't think the populations of Canada, Australia, and Britain are such space enthusiasts that they could justify the larger percentage wise expenditure as compared to their GDP to finance such a mission.

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#24 2014-01-24 10:14:18

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,670
Website

Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

Through Quebec, Canada is also part of the French Commonwealth. If you want ESA involved, you have to ensure France is a prime participant. Getting ESA to pay for the entire cost of a sample return misison would require panding to the ego of France. And they have a lovely launch vehicle called Ariane 5, launched from French Guiana.

And remember I said to keep it affordable, this mission could not afford the level of price gouging that NASA's traditional contractors have charged. Since the beginning of the Space Shuttle era, contractors have started by charging NASA ten times what any job is worth, then deliberately cause cost overruns. It's common for overruns to double the price, so NASA ends up paying twenty times what the job was worth. Countries other than the US cannot afford that. Doing this requires controlling cost. The "new space" companies are charging reasonable prices, excluding them is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". But again, if Congress won't let NASA contribute any money to a human mission to Mars...

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#25 2014-01-24 12:05:40

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: French Republican Mars Calendar

You assume its going to be a government. The problem is that government is run by politicians, and politicians try to run things so they stay in power. They're problem is, they can't be seen to spend public money to get themselves reelected, so what they do instead is spend public money so that it gets turned into private money which can be spent on their reelections. Notice NASA vehicles are build in one place and then launched in another. It would be cheaper to build the launch vehicle in the same place that it is launched, but the problem is, that would cover only one congressional district and one state, and we need all those other legislators to vote on the spending bill, and their constituents want to know how does it benefit them. So NASA money has to be spread over a sufficient number of districts to get the spending measure approved, even if it means spending more to accomplish this. All representative governments are vulnerable to this, a dictatorship works differently, that is why Russian rockets are often built where they are launched, as Russia has no real representation for its people, its politicians are secure in their positions and they don't worry about being reelected, they are there just to legitimize the dictatorial decrees that come out of the Putin Kremlin. I'd be wary about working with a dictator on a space project. Dictators are motivated by power and nothing else.

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