Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

SpaceNut · 2019-08-11 20:08:42

Related topics which is best and for the type of structure format
Mars soil factory
What would be the best method of maintaining fertile fields?
Mars first crew greenhouse
Designing the best greenhouse demonstrator for Mars
Sewage treatment
Soil Manufacture on Mars
Greenhouses
Greenhouse Architecture
Eat like a martian
Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?
100 colonist production greenhouse
Strawberry Fields Forever
Indoor farming update
Food for Thought, what does a garden need to grow
Turning Mars regolith into soil - or How can I grow potatoes on Mars
Pyramid Greenhouse

SpaceNut · 2021-04-22 17:09:58

buckwheat bump

RobertDyck · 2021-06-08 12:03:00

Not sure where to post this, so...

Researchers Create Soil Catalyst to Make Farming on Mars a Reality

Now, a team of scientists has developed a bioinspired catalyst that simplifies the perchlorate removal process and destroys 99 percent of the contaminant at ambient temperatures and pressures. The results provide “a water-compatible, efficient, and robust catalyst to degrade and utilize [perchlorate] for water purification and space exploration,” according to a recent study published in the Journal of the American Chemical Society.
The new research builds on past experiments that make use of anaerobic microbes, tiny organisms that live in oxygen-poor environments. Some of these organisms can survive by harvesting oxygen atoms inside perchlorate, which effectively breaks down the pollutant. The microbes can be cultivated to do this work in industrial reactors, but it can take weeks or months to establish working stability in this process.
...
“The motivation for our catalyst is that we just want to finish the work in a single day.”
“Right now, we have made it very stable, and it can survive under very challenging concentrations,” he added. The catalyst can be used to break down perchlorate at concentrations lower than one milligram per liter up to 10 grams per liter, which means it can be used in many contexts, from treating groundwater to detoxifying Martian soil.
To achieve this result, Liu and his colleagues developed a system based on the chemical element molybdenum, a metal that microbes use as part of their enzymatic harvesting of perchlorate. Using a mix of common fertilizer containing molybdenum, a binding molecule called bipyridine, a catalyst called palladium on carbon, and hydrogen gas, the researchers were able to rapidly disintegrate perchlorate in water at room temperature.

louis · 2021-06-08 17:17:09

Alternative strip off the first metre of regolith and then harvest the layer that has few or no perchlorates. My understanding it is solar radiation that creates the perchlorates so they shouldn't be there in lower layers.

RobertDyck wrote:

Not sure where to post this, so...
Researchers Create Soil Catalyst to Make Farming on Mars a Reality
Now, a team of scientists has developed a bioinspired catalyst that simplifies the perchlorate removal process and destroys 99 percent of the contaminant at ambient temperatures and pressures. The results provide “a water-compatible, efficient, and robust catalyst to degrade and utilize [perchlorate] for water purification and space exploration,” according to a recent study published in the Journal of the American Chemical Society.
The new research builds on past experiments that make use of anaerobic microbes, tiny organisms that live in oxygen-poor environments. Some of these organisms can survive by harvesting oxygen atoms inside perchlorate, which effectively breaks down the pollutant. The microbes can be cultivated to do this work in industrial reactors, but it can take weeks or months to establish working stability in this process.
...
“The motivation for our catalyst is that we just want to finish the work in a single day.”
“Right now, we have made it very stable, and it can survive under very challenging concentrations,” he added. The catalyst can be used to break down perchlorate at concentrations lower than one milligram per liter up to 10 grams per liter, which means it can be used in many contexts, from treating groundwater to detoxifying Martian soil.
To achieve this result, Liu and his colleagues developed a system based on the chemical element molybdenum, a metal that microbes use as part of their enzymatic harvesting of perchlorate. Using a mix of common fertilizer containing molybdenum, a binding molecule called bipyridine, a catalyst called palladium on carbon, and hydrogen gas, the researchers were able to rapidly disintegrate perchlorate in water at room temperature.

SpaceNut · 2021-06-08 19:34:05

If we are going to need to remove soils to get at what is less contaminated without an exploratory mission done before man gets there then we are just going to be out of luck....
If we are going with the assumption that we are doing a soil surface greenhouse is going to be more than a problem if we can not get good soils to grow in....

RobertDyck · 2021-06-08 22:21:58

Um, could I suggest Mars Direct? Yea, I know, in 2002 I suggested a modification of Mars Direct. I still think my modification is an improvement, but it's strongly based on Mars Direct. The idea is a human mission to Mars. Humans can dig and determine how deep perchlorates can go. I could mention that after Apollo 11, NASA promised a human mission to Mars in 1981. And they made major progress until Nixon killed Apollo. I could also mention that if Mars Direct were approved when pitched in June 1990, we would most likely have had an unmanned test of equipment to Mars in 1997, and humans on the surface of the Red Planet in 1999. We have the ability, we just need the will.

Mars Direct: does not rely on the greenhouse, but includes a greenhouse as a science experiment.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-06-25 04:43:37

Scientists grow a salad in Antarctica
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … -soil.html

New Antarctic farm will grow produce
https://inhabitat.com/new-antarctic-far … degrees-f/

Study Looks More Closely at Mars' Underground Water Signals
https://www.marsdaily.com/reports/Study … s_999.html

A new paper finds more radar signals suggesting the presence of subsurface 'lakes,' but many are in areas too cold for water to remain liquid.

In 2018, scientists working with data from ESA's (the European Space Agency's) Mars Express orbiter announced a surprising discovery: Signals from a radar instrument reflected off the Red Planet's south pole appeared to reveal a liquid subsurface lake. Several more such reflections have been announced since then.

In a new paper published in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, two scientists at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California describe finding dozens of similar radar reflections around the south pole after analyzing a broader set of Mars Express data, but many are in areas that should be too cold for water to remain liquid.

SpaceNut · 2021-06-25 19:58:19

We have seen the Antarctica Conex box but its not practical in that is not producing volume of foods for use its more experimental...

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-25 20:08:18

For SpaceNut re #233

The link provided by Mars_B4_Moon appears to be about something not yet installed.

The claim appears to be that this is not experimental.

Can you provide a link to the Conex box you are remembering?

What nation was involved in developing it?

FluxBB failed to deliver posts containing the word "conex" ... it found all sorts of posts that seemed to have nothing to do with food.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-06-25 20:48:42

The story on this starts back in 2014 or possibly earlier https://www.fastcompany.com/3029440/in- … es-on-mars

edengreenhouse_DSRviaFlickr.jpg?resize=640%2C361&ssl=1

more recent articles
https://www.space.com/mars-lunar-greenh … ca-harvest

q45wi85BBnkqqJxycAPEwX-970-80.jpg.webp

430 to 540 square feet (40 to 50 square meters) per crew member,

https://www.academia.edu/11762210/_Desi … ic_station

for the moon or mars eden project
https://www.dlr.de/content/en/articles/ … sults.html

greenhouse-concept-for-the-moon-and-mars.jpg?__blob=normal&v=7__ifc1920w

tahanson43206 · 2021-11-21 06:45:55

For RobertDyck,

The article at the link below is about a book about soil. I am hoping this post is a good fit in the debate you have set up here:

***

The article at the link below is about the value of soil for growing food. It includes the assertion that growing food in rich soil provides more nutrients than growing food in non-soil environments, but I suspect that may be more a reflection of deficiency in the practice than a fundamental deficiency in the method.

Never-the-less, I get the impression by a soil enthusiast would be worth considering by anyone serious about living off Earth.

It appears to be written for those who live or may live on Earth, but the principles should be transferable to other planets and locations.

If a member of NewMars decides to read this book, please post a synopsis.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/solutio … 29732.html

The solution to climate change? It could be right under your feet
Jamie Blackett
Sat, November 20, 2021 1:25 PM
Pulling a carrot from the earth - Alamy
This is a very timely book. Farmers are pondering regenerative agriculture, gardeners are discussing “no dig” and we are all worried about reaching carbon “net zero”. But few of us know what we are talking about, largely because the scientific community has spent more time studying the stars than the soil on which our survival depends. As Matthew Evans observes: “For me, soil seemed dull and insipid.” Yet, “Good soil isn’t just an abstract concept; it’s a thing of wonder … There are more living things in a teaspoon of healthy soil than there are humans on Earth.”

Most importantly, Evans explains how regenerative agriculture that draws carbon out of the atmosphere into the soil so that it is “like chocolate cake’” (through minimising soil disturbance and exposure, diverse cropping and grazing livestock) is our best hope of reversing climate change. He quotes Stéphane Le Foll’s “quatre pour mille” idea: that if all the world’s soils under human management were to increase in soil carbon by just four parts per 1,000 (0.4 per cent) annually, virtually the entire global increase in carbon emissions for each year could be offset. Suggestion for Mr and Mrs Thunberg: please pop a copy of Soil into Greta’s stocking this Christmas.
Soil is published by Murdoch Books at £14.99. To order your copy for £12.99 call 0844 871 1514 or visit the Telegraph Bookshop

(th)

Calliban · 2021-11-21 10:14:14

The addition of fine charcoal to soils can dramatically increase soil fertility, by trapping ions at the edges of crystal grains.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

Flash pyrolysis of dry biomass can produce 70% liquid fuels, 10% combustible gas and 20% char and ash. A sensible approach would be to use the gas to produce the required heating, to use the liquids as biofuels for engines and to mix the ash and char back into the soil. Using this approach, atmospheric CO2 levels could gradually be drawn down.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-11-21 10:33:40)

SpaceNut · 2021-11-21 10:17:07

We would need to manufacture the charcoal on mars.
The question is what would be the source plant that would best fit that source.
Trees come to mind, are there going to be others?

Calliban · 2021-11-21 10:36:23

SpaceNut wrote:

We would need to manufacture the charcoal on mars.
The question is what would be the source plant that would best fit that source.
Trees come to mind, are there going to be others?

One possibility:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscanthus_giganteus

Void · 2021-11-25 20:00:30

I ran into this:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=El … &FORM=VIRE

Maybe it is of interest to some here.

Done.

Void · 2021-12-13 08:52:48

I thought that this is really a good notion of how to start in space with agriculture. Certainly to be considered for Mars, and Mars orbits, (Phobos/Deimos) as well

https://www.space.com/good-harvest-mars … antarctica
Quote:

Bounteous harvest in Antarctic greenhouse may bode well for Mars colonization
By Tereza Pultarova published 2 days ago
Antarctica is nearly as hostile as Mars.

I am not sure Antarctic completely compares to Mars. Mars has some more favorable factors, but certainly not dealing with atmosphere.

I think that indeed it will be desired to eventually get to having crops under the sun's healthy photons emitted, but to start this may well be the best. If nuclear reactors, as energy, then no crop failure per dust storms. Also, you don't seem to need soil for this, I think.

Also, I think that something like this could be good for load leveling. Curiously you might want to light up the plants at night when people are sleeping, then have the energy for industrial processes when they are awaks.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-12-13 08:56:02)

SpaceNut · 2022-01-17 19:27:47

bump

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-19 18:38:46

This product might work for either hydroponics or soil greenhouse situations...

Apparently the LED bulb emits red and blue light in a spectrum favorable for plants. It uses 24 watts.

The advertisement did not include mention of lumens produced:

With a blue light around 460nm and red lights around 660nm perfect wave lengths for promoting growth indoors. Consumes only 24watts of power, has 12 LED's and is about 4" in diameter similar to a standard spot light.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-11-23 15:13:55

For those that want a surface mars greenhouse this is a less mass constrruction that with the selection of materials may work quite well.
Possible heat source could be from a modified RTG that gives power for the added lighting needs to allow for a faster food growth.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-04-29 02:35:07

What Would be in a Moon Salad?

https://www.universetoday.com/161119/wh … oon-salad/

Imagine you’re a lunar astronaut, putting in a hard day’s work building your lab or excavating moon rocks. You get back into the hab and ask, “What’s for dinner?” The answer could be “We’re starting with a Moon salad” featuring lettuce and other goodies grown on the lunar surface. It’s an idea scientists are researching as part of a project called LunarPlant, an effort to figure out ways to grow healthy veggies on the Moon.

The obvious idea is to use hydroponics methods for lunar farming. However, there’s no good Earth soil for planets to anchor into, so they’ll need something else. Galina Simonsen, a researcher at the independent European agency SINTEF, is exploring different approaches to hydroponics and aquaculture.

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-29 06:15:24

For Mars_B4_Moon re #245

Thanks for the link to research for lunar agriculture! The use of cellulose "brick" for building a foundation for roots is a welcome surprise.

Recycling nutrients is receiving attention. Science fiction writers have speculated how that idea might evolve over time, as humans adapt to space travel.

For SpaceNut re #244

Can you find a version of the greenhouse you showed us that can hold pressure? A fabric green house that can hold pressure certainly seems possible.

Fabric holds pressure on Earth routinely. A quick search seems to suggest that you can have fabric that holds pressure, or material that passes light, but not both at the same time.

A deflation event would be possible, so it might be a good idea to have lots of small greenhouses made in this way, instead of one large one.

A fabric that can hold .5 bar and still admit light is needed. Hopefully you'll be able to find an example developed for Earth purposes.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-11-25 12:51:41

Have seen this in Alton Bay for a strawberry farm
Is A Hydroponic Gardening Tower Right For Your Outdoor Space?

AA1chrWI.img?w=768&h=431&m=6

The recirculation of the existing water throughout the space means that the tower configuration can save up to 95% of a soil garden's traditional water consumption. Water doesn't end up wasted in areas of the soil where no plants are growing, which also can cause weeds to sprout.

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-13 09:01:29

The article at the link below is about hydroponics >> duckweed >> high value protein

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 50#p217150

(th)

Void · 2023-12-30 10:02:49

Well, this is related to hydroponics, maybe it would be useful in space/Mars: https://phys.org/news/2023-12-electroni … rowth.html Quote:

Researchers develop 'electronic soil' that enhances crop growth
by Linköping University

My guess is that the voltage moves useful icons of atoms towards the roots of the plants, and so accelerates fertilization of the plants.

Maybe.

Done

Last edited by Void (2023-12-30 10:05:07)

tahanson43206 · 2024-11-30 08:04:48

This topic is the most successful of the topics that contain the word "greenhouse" in the title.

I thought RobertDyck's current series on Diet might inspire readers/members to investigate some of the prior work.

RobertDyck has been consistent in his call for long think greenhouses with mirrors on the surface of Mars. Calliban has been consistent in pointing out the short lifetime of plastic that might be used to hold pressure for such greenhouses.

I'm interested in the possibility of using flat panes of glass (easier to make) in a metal frame (or perhaps a strong plastic frame) to hold the 3/5/8 pressure that is commonly accepted as appropriate for Mars and for Large Ship.

We currently have no members who confess to being trained as structural engineers. This is a call for new members who would be willing to work on design of a glass pressure structure for RobertDyck's long thin greenhouses.

I'd like to see CAD drawings. Those could be followed with plans for extracting the required materials at Mars, preparing them for fabrication, making them into components, and assembling those components on the surface of Mars.

RobertDyck's multiple posts show the great number of plants that will be expected by humans who relocate to Mars. Many of those might be grown in surface greenhouses, while some might be grown underground, with or without light.

Several members have posted estimates of the square meters that would be needed to support one person. The most recent was posted by Calliban, and I ** think ** the number was on the order of 400 square meters. A population of 1 million would (presumably) need 1,000,000 of these.

I'd like to see a CAD drawing for a 400 square meter greenhouse with glass panels in a strong frame able to contain the 3-5-8 Mars atmosphere, and with whatever other features are needed to provide a guide for installation and successful operation.

It seems to me that each greenhouse might specialize in one product, such as coffee, which led off RobertDyck's series on Crops.

it appears (from what I can glean from the topics) that populating one of these greenhouses with a variety of plants that interact to support each other is a good idea.

Recently the Internet feed delivered a piece about how Native Americans had "three sisters" ... These plants interacted with each other with positive reinforcement.

(Void has previously posted about the "three sisters" corn, bean and squash) Google found other combinations.

The article reported on how these three plants are slowly being re-introduced to native lands, after they were obliterated by Europeans.

I'm disappointed to find that I do not remember the three plants, but I do remember that one of them provided nitrogen for the others.

By concentrating on the 400 square food greenhouse, we can deal with the complexity of the problem. The greenhouse will need constant supply of fresh water, clean CO2, and heat to supplement whatever is received from the Sun each Sol.

(th)

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#226 2019-08-11 20:08:42

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#227 2021-04-22 17:09:58

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#228 2021-06-08 12:03:00

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#229 2021-06-08 17:17:09

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#230 2021-06-08 19:34:05

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#231 2021-06-08 22:21:58

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#232 2021-06-25 04:43:37

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#233 2021-06-25 19:58:19

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#234 2021-06-25 20:08:18

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#235 2021-06-25 20:48:42

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#236 2021-11-21 06:45:55

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#237 2021-11-21 10:14:14

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#238 2021-11-21 10:17:07

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#239 2021-11-21 10:36:23

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#240 2021-11-25 20:00:30

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#241 2021-12-13 08:52:48

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#242 2022-01-17 19:27:47

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#243 2022-02-19 18:38:46

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#244 2022-11-23 15:13:55

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#245 2023-04-29 02:35:07

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#246 2023-04-29 06:15:24

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#247 2023-11-25 12:51:41

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#248 2023-12-13 09:01:29

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#249 2023-12-30 10:02:49

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

#250 2024-11-30 08:04:48

Re: Greenhouse - hydroponics vs soil

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