I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

Terraformer · 2011-12-26 15:18:51

...and I'm not too happy with my mothers choice.

What can I say, but that Zubrin comes across as a very arrogant character, who knows very little of most of the science, and even less about the political situation? For a book set in the early 22nd century, there has been no technological innovation, except for fusion reactors (and he of course tries making much of Mars Deuterium, ignoring the fact that if people are using aneutronic fusion with deuterium they need He-3 as well, and where there's Helium there's almost certainly Hydrogen). He disses the Lunar colonists, claiming they've chosen to colonise a slag heap (needless to say, the book is presupposing people are willing to pay triple to emigrate so that they don't have to humble themselves and accept that Luna has oxygen at the very least). His version of Mars is one full of hard, dishonest work, where the way to get rich is to steal terraforming supplies and selling them back to the terraforming effort (oh, and he tries passing off his failed idea about Ammonia asteroids as being a NASA concept). Basically, I wouldn't want to live on a Mars where Mr Zubrin has had his grubby fingers.

If you're reading this... face it, Zubrin, you're an embarrassment to the whole idea of colonising beyond Terra. Methinks you need to retire.

JoshNH4H · 2011-12-27 00:29:08

How to live on Mars is imo not meant to be taken precisely at face value. I think many of the issues you mention stem more from the fact that Zubrin is a good scientist and engineer but a sub-par fiction writer with a tendency towards bombastic language as a means of conveying points.

I think he was trying to elucidate a frontier-type spirit more than anything else. He was less than successful in some ways, but others of his suggestions are good starting-off points for how to organize a colony. I believe his sections on iron and glass and polymers were quite good; they may have been familiar to you as being quoted nearly verbatim, implicitly or explicitly, in many of my posts.

Terraformer · 2011-12-27 05:17:23

Well, a lot of his writing was familiar... because he lifted it straight from his other work.

The book ought to be called Why Not To Live On Mars, because rather than portray a pioneer society, he portray's one infested by crime, where the way to get rich is to sell sub-par equipment to people, even if it kills them. He doesn't know much about a lot of the stuff he rights about - he's a good rocket engineer, yes, and he's researched a lot about the physical and chemical processes required, but he needs to round out his reading with biological stuff.

louis · 2011-12-27 08:59:54

Well as I said on another thread we are definitely living in a post-Zubrin age,but he deserves credit as one advocated colonisation of Mars at a time when NASA had turned their backs on the idea.

One idea I was impressed by, that I think was Zubrin's, was the Roman arch architecture using ISRU Mars bricks. I think that is probably the most efficient way to build on Mars: dig a trench, build a Roman arch over out of bricks and cover in regolith. Maybe used some iron struts for support as well (the engineers could tell is if that is necessary). I am not sure if he ever found a way of cheaply providing air locks on Mars from ISRU materials. If that were his only legacy, it could still be a v. significant one, if colonists could thus easily build homes for those new colonists coming after them.

Lobster · 2011-12-27 12:36:16

So, who has better idea of going and colonizing Mars then Zubrin?

Terraformer · 2011-12-27 12:47:03

Someone who accepts that using Lunar resources will lower the cost of colonising space?

louis · 2011-12-27 13:28:31

Lobster wrote:

So, who has better idea of going and colonizing Mars then Zubrin?

I think Musk knows how to get us there and how to establish human civilisation on Mars. He's been clear about his aim of getting to Mars and now with Red Dragon we see the way he is thinking. I believe he has probably already addressed many of the issues we discussed here.

A lot of Zubrin's ideas will eventually be incorporated into the programme but I think he overcomplicated the mission, or at least the presentation, by having a large craft land on the surface and requiring spin gravity for the craft.

We should be thinking more in terms of orbital assembly and robot delivery of supplies to the surface.

Lobster · 2011-12-30 04:22:21

Hmm it still seems to me that Zubrin's plan of using present time technology and sending men directly to Mars and make return propellent there most developed yet.
I think it's not serious to expect to first go to the Moon and mine there since that would just complicate stuff and not to mention make it more expensive.
And Musk seems to me more like a guy who has idea and not actual plan like Zubrin. He's holding speeches and talking about developing new technology unlike Zubrin who wants to use present technology. To do it practically today and not in 15 or 20 years the Musk way who is still more about unmanned missions.

But of course another question is how much realistic is Zubrin's plan. For instance few months ago I heard him say on Coast To Coast radio how he'll be advocating for more fracking and more coal mining which seems stupid because fracking is very toxic (if you saw documentary "GasLand") and Zubrin says how he never saw documented case that anyone suffered from fracking and gas extracting - I mean that's just stupid.
Not to mention what they do to Appalachian Mountains to get coal (documentary "Last Mountain")

Last edited by Lobster (2011-12-30 04:24:01)

falkor · 2012-11-13 15:47:08

Terraformer has your mother read it by now and what is she getting you this Christmas?

louis · 2012-11-13 20:30:49

Lobster wrote:

Hmm it still seems to me that Zubrin's plan of using present time technology and sending men directly to Mars and make return propellent there most developed yet.
I think it's not serious to expect to first go to the Moon and mine there since that would just complicate stuff and not to mention make it more expensive.
And Musk seems to me more like a guy who has idea and not actual plan like Zubrin. He's holding speeches and talking about developing new technology unlike Zubrin who wants to use present technology. To do it practically today and not in 15 or 20 years the Musk way who is still more about unmanned missions.
But of course another question is how much realistic is Zubrin's plan. For instance few months ago I heard him say on Coast To Coast radio how he'll be advocating for more fracking and more coal mining which seems stupid because fracking is very toxic (if you saw documentary "GasLand") and Zubrin says how he never saw documented case that anyone suffered from fracking and gas extracting - I mean that's just stupid.
Not to mention what they do to Appalachian Mountains to get coal (documentary "Last Mountain")

Musk is a player i.e. he has a fully worked out plan but isn't telling you what it is yet. Why? Because he is closely tied up with NASA, so it's all politics - he has to avoid humiliating the NASA folk.

RobertDyck · 2012-11-14 08:23:22

Zubrin's book is a tong-in-cheek version designed to be entertaining to read. If you want the hard science, read "The Case for Mars".

As for fusion, I have to completely disagree. Deuterium will fuse directly with deuterium. The fuel mixture with the lowest energy for ignition is deuterium-tritium, and that produces the most energy per mass of fuel. A close second is deuterium-helium3, but for ignition temperature and energy produced. A double deuterium reaction takes significantly more energy to ignite, but you can use either of the previous two fuel mixtures to get it going, then heat from fusion itself will increase fuel temperature until double deuterium fusion begins. That fuel mixture produces less energy that the first two, but only if you ignore secondary reactions. You see, a deuterium-deuterium fusion reaction produces tritium and a proton about half the time, and helium-3 and a neutron the other half. That means a double deuterium reactor *MAKES* tritium and helium-3. Since such a reactor would operate well above ignition temperature for the deuterium with either of these two, those fusion reactions *WILL* occur. So secondary reactions for a double deuterium reactor are the first two reactions. When you factor in energy from all fusion reactions, it produces 90% to 91% of the energy per mass of fuel of a deuterium-helium3 reactor. Here on Earth, considering deuterium comes from tap water but helium-3 would have to be mined on the Moon, just ask yourself: Would any businessman spend the copious gobs of cash necessary to mine anything on the Moon when he could just consume 10% more tap water? I think not.

For any Moon guys: Sorry. Helium-3 will never be an economically viable export.

JoshNH4H · 2012-11-17 21:36:13

I don't think it makes sense to get Helium-3 from anywhere else in general. Its decay from Tritium is a very feasible way to generate it, and this can be done with a lithium blanket around a fusion reactor, in combination with some fission-based breeder reactors. This does eliminate some of the claimed benefits of Fusion over Fission, but it will likely be found to be less expensive than sifting through thousands upon thousands of tonnes of regolith on the Moon, or purifying He-3 from the clouds of Jupiter.

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#1 2011-12-26 15:18:51

I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

#2 2011-12-27 00:29:08

Re: I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

#3 2011-12-27 05:17:23

Re: I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

#4 2011-12-27 08:59:54

Re: I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

#5 2011-12-27 12:36:16

Re: I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

#6 2011-12-27 12:47:03

Re: I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

#7 2011-12-27 13:28:31

Re: I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

#8 2011-12-30 04:22:21

Re: I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

#9 2012-11-13 15:47:08

Re: I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

#10 2012-11-13 20:30:49

Re: I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

#11 2012-11-14 08:23:22

Re: I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

#12 2012-11-17 21:36:13

Re: I got "How to Live on Mars" for Christmas...

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